Apple Jack

[DraconianHand]

I thought there was a legal limit to the amount each person over 21 can "distill" for personal use -- just like beer...

Unfortunately not. Distillation of alcohol for any purpose is illegal without a license or permit from the TTB (not ATF). If you are a researcher and distill alcohol as part or your work or you are a school child using distillation to demonstration something for a science fair...you need permission from the TTB.

Only the production of wine and beer is permitted by the TTB.

 

[LouT]

OK, I'll bite......what is the TTB? Some type of taxation authority?
How hard/expensive is it to get a distillation permit? I see that micro-distilleries are coming on strong lately, maybe not much barrier to entry...

 

[flowerysong]

The TTB is the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau.

From the TTB FAQ:

You cannot produce spirits for beverage purposes without paying taxes and without prior approval of paperwork to operate a distilled spirits plant. [See 26 U.S.C. 5601 & 5602 for some of the criminal penalties.] There are numerous requirements that must be met that make it impractical to produce spirits for personal or beverage use. Some of these requirements are paying excise tax, filing an extensive application, filing a bond, providing adequate equipment to measure spirits, providing suitable tanks and pipelines, providing a separate building (other than a dwelling) and maintaining detailed records, and filing reports. All of these requirements are listed in 27 CFR Part 19.

As an example: In Michigan, a license to distill whisky is $10,000 per year. A bond needs to be paid, fairly extensive equipment investments made, and lest we forget, you also need a building to put everything in.

Needless to say, there aren't a lot of small whisky distillers in Michigan.

However, things are looking up; what we are starting to have is a lot of small brandy distillers. A new license allowing winemakers to distill brandy was introduced, and is only $100 per year.

 

[DraconianHand]

Unless you are a terrorist, or engaged in terrorist-like activities (I believe jaywalking qualifies these days), you have to deal with the TTB and not the ATF.

 

[JeanLucD]

Wow, everytime I read posts about Apple jack and distilling it makes me so happy that I live in New Zealand, where I a 17 year old can brew whatever I want and then distill that however much I want. I tried making some apple jack with my last batch of cider after reading about some posts on this forum, and I didn't really realise how much of a bitch it is to do... I mean it took me about 4 days of waiting and checking the freezer every 5 hours or something, although I dont think I did it right, cos what I ended up with didn't taste all that alchoholic, nor was there that much made. I think I'll just end up buying myself a still and make some good ol' Calvados, once I get a nice French style cider recipe.

 

[JohnBarleycornATL]

I have a question. I remeber doing and experiment in elementary school in which we froze water in a mason jar and, because it is a polar molecule, it expanded and broke the glass. I was wondering if I would run into the same problem in this case, and if so how do I avoid it?

 

[rhag1128]

I still have some applejack from an elderberry-pear cider from 5 years ago. Started off tasting like gasoline but is smooth and fruity now. Im about to start a new batch to freeze this winter in Vermont. I just rack into multiple 3 liter bottles-only 2 liters each, to allow for expansion. Have often considered using a fractional distillation column to collect only the ethanol but then why don't I just by some everclear....

 

[OdinOneEye]

This may be slightly off topic, but not really
I've had this on again/off again discussion with my dad regarding vodka/everclear/what have you- would it be illegal to distill the excess water from that, thereby increasing its alcohol percent? There would obviously be no danger of any nasty alcohols/bad oils, since the liquor company already handled that back in the initial production...

What say you?

 

[newell456]

I have a question. I remeber doing and experiment in elementary school in which we froze water in a mason jar and, because it is a polar molecule, it expanded and broke the glass. I was wondering if I would run into the same problem in this case, and if so how do I avoid it?

Don't fill the container too much and leave room for expansion.

 

[newell456]

What I want to know is, if you aren't distributing your apple jack, how would the feds know if you were freezing it in the first place? Unlike stills, everyone with a fridge has a freezer, I'm assuming, and noone's going to notice the electrical fluctuation it takes when you add a gallon of cider to the freezer.
Shtupid law. Just like not being allowed to fire a gun off during a moment of passion with your lady in Wisconsin.

I grew up with a guy who often said, "It ain't illegal if you don't get caught." He's in prison for growing pot in his attic. He got caught because someone else got pinched and ratted him out. If a person sets up a still, grow lights in the attic, or freeze distills apple cider, he/she will eventually want to share the experience with someone, and the people that turn others in for these kind of shenanigans are always the people you thought of as friends. After all, whenever I talk to fellow homebrewers about distilling, the answer is almost invariably that my fellow brewer has thought about doing it just to say he did it, which is also my answer. Why else would we want to make apple jack when we can buy cheap apple brandy that would probably be a far better quality than what we could make.

I agree that we have some stupid laws, and, aside from concentrating fusels and making rot-gut. freeze distilling is not as dangerous as traditional moonshining. The problem is that moonshine in general can be dangerous if made improperly, like if the shiner uses a car radiator for a condenser, which likely contains lead solder. Alcohol, being an incredible solvent, is probably one of the most efficient ways to get lead posioning from a car radiator. The next problem is that if they made a exception in the law for freeze distilling, anyone caught with moonshine would argue that the gov't had to prove it wasn't freeze distilled. They said the hell with that when they wrote the law, particularly since freeze distilled products contain concentrated fusel alcohols anyway. I still want to make apple jack just to see what it's like and to say I did it, but it's just not worth the risk to me.

 

[OdinOneEye]

Newell456
Why make apple jack when we can get cheap apple brandy from the store?
Why brew cider when we can buy Woodchuck at the store?

 

[flowerysong]

This may be slightly off topic, but not really
I've had this on again/off again discussion with my dad regarding vodka/everclear/what have you- would it be illegal to distill the excess water from that, thereby increasing its alcohol percent? There would obviously be no danger of any nasty alcohols/bad oils, since the liquor company already handled that back in the initial production...

What say you?

Home distillation is illegal. Whether what you are doing is dangerous or not has no effect on the legality of it.

 

[newell456]

Newell456
Why make apple jack when we can get cheap apple brandy from the store?
Why brew cider when we can buy Woodchuck at the store?

I don't really understand the point of your questions. I think you are referring to my post where I mentioned that the risk of freeze distilling is the same as putting grow lights in the attic, and I gave my 2 cents in response to someone asking "how would the feds even know?" I could be wrong, but it sounds to me like you are reading my post as saying people should not distill because they can buy brandy, which I never said. Please, go back and read what I said in context if this is what you thought that I meant. My point of asking, rhetorically, why someone would want to distill when they can buy a better quality brandy for very little is to point out that some brewers, myself included, and every homebrewer I have talked to have thought about distilling because of the challenge of it -not for the quality. That is not an absolute with everyone- it's just my 2 cents based on what I have heard. I did not intend to suggest that because someone can buy cheap apple brandy, there is no point in distilling. The reason not to distill, if you decide not to, is the legality of it. If you go back and read my post, I think it's clear I was giving my opinion that the risk with distilling is that many of us want the challenge of doing it to say we did it, and the risk in getting in trouble stems directly from telling people. I pointed out that the cheapest apple brandy will be better than freeze distilled hard cider (which will have concentrated fusel alcohols and methanol) to support my statement that my motivations to consider freeze distilling were for the challenge- not for quality- and if you do something for the challenge/thrill of it, then you are more likely to talk, and consequently, get caught. This is in direct response to the question that was asked- "how would the feds even know." Yes- it's a long shot-but that is how the feds would theoretically know. I can tell from experience that no one shows their still/grow lights or whatever to their enemies. Those who get busted, get busted because of "friends."

I'm an attorney, so that is how I looked at the question that was asked. When someone asks about doing something illegal, if I respond, and even if I do it somewhat anonymously on a message board, I will say that you shouldn't break the law, and you could get caught even if you think you won't. There are ethical rules that actually say that's the answer I'm supposed to give (more or less), and even if I posting anonymously, that is pretty much how I think of these things because of my career choice. I also took an oath saying that I'd never advise a person to break the law, so that's where I'm coming from.

 

[Nan]

I read about water distillers. Can't you just use one of those? Freezing sounds a little too complicated. I'd much rather pour some hard cider in a water distiller and have apple jack instantly. Don't know if that's actually possible though.

I'm actually trying that out tonight, don't know how it's going to work out!

 

[Orfy]

I'm actually trying that out tonight, don't know how it's going to work out!

Cool, admitting committing an offence out in public and in writing.
Come on guys.

Using HBT to discuss illegal activities in theory is one thing but stating you are going to commit an offence is just dumb.

Forgive me if you live in a place where it is legal.

 

[Adolphus79]

bad Orfy... don't bite the noobs...

bad noobs... don't admit to illegal activities on a public forum, thus leaving yourself wide open for getting bit...

bad me... no more drunk posting for you...

 

[illona]

Check out the Guide to Self Sufficiency. This recipe should work perfectly if you live in a four-season area where winter gets nice and cold and begin sometime in September or October.



His recipe goes like this:
1. squeeze a bunch of apples and put juice in buckets
2. let ferment rapidly over night and cover to avoid fruit flies (they carry the vinegar yeast)
3. scoop off the pulp and drain liquid into a carboy
4. add 2 pounds of sugar (in a simple syrup form) for every 5 gallons of juice and a few teaspoons of brewers yeast
5. place an "air release" top and let ferment for one to two months depending on temperature. Less time for warmer weather. It takes about 4 months in cool weather, about 60 degrees F.
6. Siphon into tubs and cover. Set outside if it is winter. Otherwise find some freezer space.
7. Ignore for several days.
8. Then take inside and use a strainer to scoop out all the ice.
9. Taste and adjust flavor with more simple syrup. 5 gallons of cider turn into a little more than half a gallon of apple jack.
Add about 2 cups of simple syrup. The result will be an alcohol content somewhere around 30-35%. Just enough to get you drunk but not enough to burn on the way down.

It should be delicious "in theory"

Simple syrup: One part water, two parts sugar

 

[Dguy]

Theoretically, A centrifuge separates ice from liquid nicely. Commonly known as a salad spinner, one would just place a cloth, maybe a clean bandana, in the spinner bowl, place the aforementioned liquid / ice combination in the bandana, fold over the corners, and spin it. Check separation by the color of the ice. When it looks "white', separation is as good as one can theoretically get it. refreeze the solution and repeat until ice no longer forms. Theoretically, this would result in a liquor with a thicker "mouth feel" and a traditional "burn" when imbibed.

Theoretically.https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/images/smilies/n045.gif

 

[Picklegnome]

Wouldn't it work nearly as well to put a bandana in a jar, then pour the liquid in over it? Do it quickly enough, and you'll catch ice but let the liquid through. And you won't be imparting energy to the mix, so it'll stay frozen longer.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Here is a thread that should have had the dignity of a decent burial.

 

[Orfy]

YUP.

It seems to attract people who are looking for info on it.

Its illegal in most places.