Apple Jack question

[lunchbox]

I'm not going to ask about the process as I understand that is highly frowned upon on this forum. But my question is...

If you were to freeze distill (as it seems to be the most common method), wouldn't you still have to worry about getting those "bad" alcohols (fusel and whatnot)?

From what I understand, and I admit it's a bit limited, every time you make applewine you create the bad alcohols. However, in the 12% wines, they are so diluted that they do not harm us. But when you freeze it, you concentrate the alcohols and create a possible health issue.

Am I wrong or is this not really an issue?

 

[Duffer]

You are not wrong AND it's not really an issue

 

[lunchbox]

You are not wrong AND it's not really an issue

Ok... can you expand on your answer?

 

[danculwell]

It depends how much you drink. A bottle of apple wine has x oz bad alcohols. If you freeze distill it then you condense those alcohols but you still have the same amount of alcohol. Drinking n "drinks" of the wine should have the same amount of bad alcohols as drinking n "drinks" of applejack.

 

[lunchbox]

It depends how much you drink. A bottle of apple wine has x oz bad alcohols. If you freeze distill it then you condense those alcohols but you still have the same amount of alcohol. Drinking n "drinks" of the wine should have the same amount of bad alcohols as drinking n "drinks" of applejack.

Hmm... it makes so much sense that it must be true.

Never thought of it like that. Perhaps cutting it with vodka would diminish the "threat" even more.

 

[danculwell]

Hmm... it makes so much sense that it must be true.

The key is saying it with confidence. Then it doesn't matter if it's true or not.

 

[Edcculus]

You really aren't at any risk if you freeze concentrate once. From my reading, its when you try to get it up to the 40% range by freeze concentration that you start to have problems. Really, it can be avoided. Keeping your fermentation temps below 70F, using enough healthy yeast, using a good quality ale or cider yeast (not distillers turbo yeast) will limit the production of higher alcohols.

Also, the real threat of going blind or dying was really from shoddy moonshine production methods during the Prohibition. People would use old radiators with a lot of lead and other poisons. We're talking about freeze concentration though.

From what I understand, Applejack as you would buy it in the store is a an 80 proof liqueur. I'm unsure of their method of production though. It is possible to "jack" a batch of cider by freeze concentration. You could probably get a batch of straight juice cider up to the 10% range with one round of freeze concentration. Look up "Eisbock".

I had thoughts to do some sort of "big epic cider" via freeze concentration, but never got around to it. I lived in Cleveland then and was planning on brewing a batch of cider, kegging it, then leaving the keg on my porch during the winter. Every once and a while, I planned on agitating the keg to keep ice crystal formation small and even. Once I felt most of the liquid was sloshy, kind of like a frozen margarita, I would attempt to drain out the liquid and leave behind most of the ice. This method is pretty much the same as in the Jamil Show episode on Eisbock.

I might still try it if I get my keezer empty, or it gets abnormally cold this winter in SC. I don't plan on shooting for anything higher than 15% after concentration.

 

[CandleWineProject]

I recommend reading Annie Proulx and Lew Nichols’ Cider: Making, Using & Enjoying Sweet & Hard Cider and Ben Watson’s Cider: Hard & Sweet.

I find it interesting that the proof is based on tempature, not sugar. I wish they were a little more specific on why applejack is not exactly safe to drink and some of the history of the sicknesses. But they are cider people. Personally, if I ever got my winery license and then a distilling license, I would stick to heat.

 

[George7845]

i just froze a gallon of cider i didnt fully rack cause it got cloudy. I froze and strained about 3 times, it tasted like crap. Four shots later i still didnt have a buzz, in conclusion i failed haha, or just didnt have enough cider, the cider was 7% abv originally.

 

[CvilleKevin]

I've done freeze concentration a few times on batches that didnt taste great to start with. I dont really recommend it. IMHO, you are better off giving the cider away to a vinegar maker if it comes out crappy tasting. Or if you know someone with a still you can give it to them. Freeze concentration will concentrate the flavor and make it taste a little better if it is watery, but not much. You can bump the alcohol a good bit, but if you are just looking for a cheap buzz, Everclear is a lot cheaper and cleaner than going to the trouble of fermenting apple juice.

One of the challenges with any type of distillation is avoiding the heads (lower freezing/boiling point) and tails (higher freezing boiling point) fusel alcohols while capturing the ethanol. This is a lot easier to do with heat distillation because you can just discard the beginning and end of the run. With freeze concentration you will be getting all of the heads (mostly Acetone, Methanol and Ethyl acetate) as they dont freeze, along with most - but not all of the ethanol, because the ethanol is more likely to get bound up with the ice slush unless you precisely control the temp. The heads is where most of the really nasty stuff is. Tails can be used for flavoring.

Edcculus is correct that if you do a proper job on the primary on the fermentation you will not produce much in the way of fusel alcohols - but there will still be some. Any distiller will tell you that an apple or any fruit based wash has a lot more heads and tails than sugar, barley or corn based wash.

But its not true that fusels before distillation = fusels afterwards. With heat, you get get rid of most of the fusels. With freezing, what you end up with is all the heads, most of the ethanol, and hardly any tails

So if you make a batch that was fermented badly and has a bit of an acetone tinge to it, after freezing it, you will have a nice glass of alcoholic acetone.

IMHO, if you ferment the cider properly, you will not want to boost the alcohol because that way you can drink more of it without getting sloppy drunk. If you botch it, you are better off turning it to vinegar or let someone who knows what they are doing use it as apple wash

 

[couchsurfer]

As far as heads goes, and smoothing out your jack, pasteurizing in the microwave can have great effect... Taste some of the result if you don't believe me. Just boil off a bit.

You still will have the tails, of course. But good brewing techniques can minimize both and besides, it's just a few glasses of a something you are trying to play with, I assume. I just do it on-demand, it's pretty easy stuff, and how much do you need?