Anyone have experience with “San Step NS” sanitizer?

[Amadeo38]

I won a big jug of something called San Step at our brew-off raffle and cant find much about it on the web. The container says it’s a “non-iodine acid sanitizer for CIP and COP systems, tanks, and back-flush systems.” The active ingredients are phosphoric acid (28.5%), propionic acid (10%), decanoic acid (3%), nonanoic acid (3%), and 55% inert ingredients.

Just wondering if anyone has experience using this stuff and whether or not it replaces Star-San. Directions seem to suggest it needs to dry completely before the surface is sanitized, which would be a bummer. Thanks for your comments!

 

[Amadeo38]

Nobody?

 

[bucketnative]

Their instructions don't say anything about drying: https://www.ecologiccleansers.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/San-Step-Home-Data-Sheet.pdf

The instructions are similar to Star San, except they specify to keep wet for 2 min.

 

[IslandLizard]

It is no-rinse, apparently.

Here's a plug by the manufacturer at ProBrewer.
They claim it's similar to "the other" (Starsan, perhaps?) without all the foam and usable in even the hardest water.

Google is your friend, my friend.

 

[Amadeo38]

Google is your friend, my friend.

I am fully capable of a Google search... I was hoping to hear of people’s personal experience with the product.

As the two of you have pointed out, the most readily available information is from the manufacturer itself but not much by way of personal reports.

 

[bucketnative]

I am fully capable of a Google search... I was hoping to hear of people’s personal experience with the product.

As the two of you have pointed out, the most readily available information is from the manufacturer itself but not much by way of personal reports.

I emailed the company to see if they would provide their EPA registration number, which would allow you to get their EPA-mandated label. This should provide the most comprehensive instructions. Their multiple forum posts (FEB 2018) all claim EPA registration, but I was unable to find them under their company name, product name, chemical, etc...

The good thing is, you could be the first to report on how it works.

They are PA-based, but I have yet to see their products in any of the Philly-area home brew shops.

 

[Amadeo38]

I emailed the company to see if they would provide their EPA registration number, which would allow you to get their EPA-mandated label. This should provide the most comprehensive instructions.

This is great - thanks! I have what’s written on the bottle label but apparently that’s not entirely accurate given that it says the product should be left to dry (perhaps this was specific to CIP systems?).

I guess I could mix up a batch and brew a cheap lawnmower beer, that way I wouldn’t be upset if it got infected. Then I could report back so people know whether or not it works. They claim 20% savings over StarSan since 1oz makes six gallons instead of five! (sarcasm)

 

[Rickdude]

Hey folks,

Nice to see some mention of the product. I hope it won't be considered crassly commercial for me to jump in. I actually had two people point me to this forum and I see that the guy I was just corresponding with is here, too!

LOGIC, Inc. is the manufacturer of San Step NS, and I encourage anyone interested to contact me directly if you'd like-- rick "at" ecologiccleansers.com.

We introduced the product earlier this year, although it has been in the works for many years prior. An EPA registration is tough to get, even when you're working with another company as a primary registrant. Basically we wanted to solve the problems that we saw with other products and figured out that this formula is how to do it. The problem is that we have our own three tier system in homebrewing-- the manufacturer, the product distributor, and the retailer. It is very hard to get products into the retail establishment without the cooperation of the distributors. We are still working on that, but we are happy to sell the product directly to shops or end users in the meantime.

As I said, I don't want to come off as crassly commercial, so I won't bang the drum any more than that. If anyone is coming to Homebrew Con, come by and see us; I'll show you the product demo.

Rick

 

[Rickdude]

To the initial question...

Regarding the air-dry part, the registration makes that a condition of use in plants that prepare food for human consumption, but in terms of home use you’re kind of on your own because the government can’t tell you how to handle your own food (at least not yet). This is the loophole that has allowed One Step, our powdered no-rinse product, to be used in homebrewing and home winemaking even though it is not registered with the EPA. It’s kind of like someone using generic bleach (no registration) for sanitizing.

The mechanism of action for both San Step and Star San is the same; it’s an anionic surfactant in an acidic medium that is doing the job, and when the pH goes above 4, both lose their efficacy. Both products use biodegradable surfactants, the Star San is based on dodecylbenzene sulfonic acid (DDBSA), and the San Step is based on fatty acids. These fatty acids are naturally present in beer via fermentation processes and we have done a bit of research to ensure that the use levels will not impact flavor or aroma (basically, they are much lower than that threshold after you drain your equipment).

Hope that's helpful!

Rick

 

[lump42]

Hey folks,

Nice to see some mention of the product. I hope it won't be considered crassly commercial for me to jump in. I actually had two people point me to this forum and I see that the guy I was just corresponding with is here, too!

LOGIC, Inc. is the manufacturer of San Step NS, and I encourage anyone interested to contact me directly if you'd like-- rick "at" ecologiccleansers.com.

We introduced the product earlier this year, although it has been in the works for many years prior. An EPA registration is tough to get, even when you're working with another company as a primary registrant. Basically we wanted to solve the problems that we saw with other products and figured out that this formula is how to do it. The problem is that we have our own three tier system in homebrewing-- the manufacturer, the product distributor, and the retailer. It is very hard to get products into the retail establishment without the cooperation of the distributors. We are still working on that, but we are happy to sell the product directly to shops or end users in the meantime.

As I said, I don't want to come off as crassly commercial, so I won't bang the drum any more than that. If anyone is coming to Homebrew Con, come by and see us; I'll show you the product demo.

Rick

So is there an EPA registration number as claimed?

 

[Rickdude]

Yep! 4959-42-91546

Rick

 

[Amadeo38]

Now that I’ve tried the product, I thought I would respond since I started the thread. Here it goes:

1. This stuff is quite caustic. It smells like straight up lab grade acid, like back in General Chem. And this is after diluting it with the appropriate amount of water. My whole kitchen smells like a lab, and it burns the eyes and nostrils when you lean over the bucket. The smell is now in my hands even though I’ve been in and out of a bucket of PBW numerous times since, and washed with hand soap. I would use a respirator and big yellow elbow-length gloves if you’re sensitive to smells or skin burning at all.

2. It really doesn’t foam, which is perhaps the only positive. It makes the bottles feel super clean. Heck, if I left them in long enough it might even etch the glass!

I can’t imagine the intensity of this smell doesn’t come out in the beer in some way or another. I have diverted half of my batch into 2-liter bottles sanitized with star-San just in case things go awry.

I will report back in two weeks with a side-by-side comparison of the two products. My two concerns with San Step are sanitation and head retention.

 

[Rickdude]

I'm glad you tried it, and thanks for the feedback! I'm not sure if you're looking for a reply to your comments, but I thought I'd offer just in case.

1) Yep, there's a smell. It is due to the fatty acids that are biocidal. In Star San, the surfactant is dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid, but in our case it is nonanoic and decanoic acids, which we think are preferable... and are also natural byproducts of yeast fermentation. (Carlsberg beer is notorious for the nonanoic acid aroma, in fact.) Regarding skin burning, San Step is actually lower in total acid value than Star San (meaning titratable acid; in the case of pH it is actually a little higher/less aggressive), so you may have sensitive skin. Using gloves with any cleaner is probably a good idea in general.

2) Glass etching is not something that we've seen with typical mineral acids in general (HF being the sole exception), let alone fatty acids, but we're glad that your bottles feel clean and that you didn't see much foam!

There are thresholds of perception for materials that make an impact on our olfactory and gustatory senses. We have a great deal of confidence that, when used properly, even in the case of non-active fermentation, there will not be anywhere near enough fatty acids left to make an impact on your senses. Having said that, there are people that swear that they can taste the presence of an iodophor sanitizer, so no one can say for sure if you can detect a difference. Looking forward to your report.

One last thing, since you're in Gainesville, do you have hard water? One of the benefits of San Step is that it is not deactivated by water hardness minerals the way that Star San is (this is the reason for the clouding). Just curious if you saw a difference in terms of how the solution looks?

I really do appreciate the feedback and I am available to answer any questions you may have on our products.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.

 

[Amadeo38]

I’ve worked for several years in a mechanic shop and auto body shop around all kinds of solvents, paints, chemicals, etc. Never used a mask or glove. Not saying this felt bad to my skin anywhere near as much as any of those things, or any more than StarSan would, but I did have an open cut on my hand at the time which may have factored in.

The smell is more the issue. It fills the kitchen, and gave me a light headache after a few minutes. Yes, this is the experience of one person. One person very accustomed to strong chemical odors, that is.

The pH of the water I’m using is about 7, according to these flimsy test strips. So, fairly hard. I noticed when I put the San Step into a clear glass, it was about as, or slightly less cloudy than Star-San has been. However, I’ve only used Star San with RO water at pH of 5.0 for the last couple years, so maybe my memory is off.

 

[lump42]

I’ve worked for several years in a mechanic shop and auto body shop around all kinds of solvents, paints, chemicals, etc. Never used a mask or glove. Not saying this felt bad to my skin anywhere near as much as any of those things, or any more than StarSan would, but I did have an open cut on my hand at the time which may have factored in.

The smell is more the issue. It fills the kitchen, and gave me a light headache after a few minutes. Yes, this is the experience of one person. One person very accustomed to strong chemical odors, that is.

The pH of the water I’m using is about 7, according to these flimsy test strips. So, fairly hard. I noticed when I put the San Step into a clear glass, it was about as, or slightly less cloudy than Star-San has been. However, I’ve only used Star San with RO water at pH of 5.0 for the last couple years, so maybe my memory is off.

Was there carryover aroma or taste into your beers?

 

[Amadeo38]

Nope - just won silver in the Best Bitter category at the Best Florida Beer competition with the beer I made from this first batch of San Step.

 

[lump42]

Thanks for the update! Congrats

 

[atlref]

I recently purchased a bottle of the San Step. I was interested in using it in my automated bottle washer. The two big concerns I had were the need to let it air dry and contact time of 2 minutes. With Star San I can usually just put a gallon in my carboy shake it for 30 seconds and I am good to go.
Now that I have a bottle my biggest problem is the smell. It is horrible. Not so much burn my eyes caustic but just plan bad. I put some in a keg to sanitize drained and sealed it. Opened a few days later and still smells.
Glad to hear the bottles you packaged did not have a smell carryover.
RICK - Can you answer these questions- 1. Can I use like Star San and put 1 gallon in 5 gallon keg shake for 30 seconds and be good to use? Or do I have to fill the full 5 gallon keg with solution and let it sit for 2 minutes before I can consider it sanitized 2. How do I get rid of the smell?
I know we are told don't fear the FOAM but I do fear the smell.

 

[Rickdude]

Nope - just won silver in the Best Bitter category at the Best Florida Beer competition with the beer I made from this first batch of San Step.

Dude!!!! That is awesome!

Thanks for the update.

Rick

 

[Rickdude]

RICK - Can you answer these questions- 1. Can I use like Star San and put 1 gallon in 5 gallon keg shake for 30 seconds and be good to use? Or do I have to fill the full 5 gallon keg with solution and let it sit for 2 minutes before I can consider it sanitized 2. How do I get rid of the smell?

1. Yes. The thing about the 2 minutes has to do with the big usage of this product, which is in dairies. We don't have anywhere near the kind of fat and mineral load that those places have, so there's a longer contact time needed. The mode of action is actually the same as Star San, we just use a different surfactant/acid system (thus the low foam), so you can use it the same way.

2. We're working on the smell. As I mentioned above, after a life in chemistry I don't think about smells much anymore (I'm still a good judge, according to my fellows, I think I've just have gotten to the point that a smell has got to be really pungent before it catches my attention if I'm not looking for it). Some thoughts below...

-The reason for the smell, of course, is that you have molecules becoming airborne and getting into your nose. It will go away as it moves into the environment. Keeping the dose at the low end (1oz/6gal) will ensure that there is less left behind.
-In order of how much the materials will retain the smell (worst to best) are: plastic, glass, and metal. (It's a similar effect to how quickly different materials dry.)
-Even though the smell is pungent, the concentration needed to hit the flavor/aroma threshold is sufficiently high that you'd have to be doing something significantly wrong for it to make an impact on your beer, even considering the idea a fast rinse of a 12oz followed by filling with no draining time.

Hope that's helpful,

Rick

 

[atlref]

Thanks for the info. I am looking forward to using this product into more of my brewing activities.

 

[lump42]

@Rickdude has the odor been addressed. I see it being advertised as odorless and tasteless. Is this referirefto the concentrate or just the diluted product?

 

[Amadeo38]

@Rickdude has the odor been addressed. I see it being advertised as odorless and tasteless. Is this referirefto the concentrate or just the diluted product?

They are taking steps to rectify the odor, it seems. They sent me and another HBT user a sample of their new formulation to compare to the old one we had issue with. The odor is much reduced and did not cause any issues for me. Also, it still worked appropriately as a sanitizer.

 

[mongoose33]

My son came home from the BYO boot camp with a bottle of that. He'll never use it again. It apparently created some off flavors, and if the only reason for using it is it won't foam, there are better alternatives.

I was hoping he'd saved the bottle so I could dump it, rinse it, and fill it with Star-San, but alas...he'd already tossed it.

 

[Rickdude]

Hey Lump,

Yes-- that's regarding the diluted product. One of my commercial customers (also a friend; this isn't something I'd do with just anyone) is very sensitive to smells, so I made up some blind samples with an excess of San Step in a few of the bottles. It was all the same beer (a commercial pale ale that I uncapped and re-capped, adding 5 ml of the diluted product to a few of them) and he couldn't make the distinction between those doctored and not.

As a different test, a buddy and I sanitized a few bottles and didn't let them drip, added tap water, then tasted those water samples vs. straight tap water. There was a difference in flavor of the water, but nothing that seemed particularly offensive. If I had to put my finger on it, I'd say that there was a more mineral-ly flavor in the San Step water.

As Amadeo pointed out, we're continuing to tweak the product (in fact I've got a meeting in upstate NY this coming Wednesday with a possible new producer-- they have better blending controls).

Thanks for asking!

Rick

@Rickdude has the odor been addressed. I see it being advertised as odorless and tasteless. Is this referirefto the concentrate or just the diluted product?

 

[mux11]

I won a bottle at a brewing event and have been using it for a couple years. The biggest factors for me are the smell and drying out my hands when I have long exposure. I will wear gloves when needed. I use it the same as star san and have not had any negative things regarding my beverage products. That residual smell on the hands sticks around for a good while. I would buy this and have no reason not to continue using it. Thanks!