Anybody ranting about the results from the National HB competition yet?

[SpanishCastleAle]

I would guess that a high percentage of individuals that sent in entries are affiliated with a club. Clubs tend to encourage members to compete ... also, perhaps club members tend to be the most enthusiastic/knowledgeable home brewers.

I agree. At my HB club's meeting just before the NHC, the best judges are available and seated at a long table at the meeting and anyone wanting to enter a beer is encouraged to bring it in for an assessment. At least once they convinced me to enter a beer in a different category.

Without knowing how many entries were from folks in HB clubs it's hard to say if or how much a statistical anomaly that 90% is.

 

[Indyking]

also, perhaps club members tend to be the most enthusiastic/knowledgeable home brewers.

Sure, that's why it would not be fair to judge them against independent brewers! No wonder the vast majority of winners are affiliated to a club! Many clubs have several resources (recipes, tips, shared equipment) that could result in unfair advantage. Oh, well, such is life.

 

[wonderbread23]

Sure, that's why it would not be fair to judge them against independent brewers! No wonder the vast majority of winners are affiliated to a club! Many clubs have several resources (recipes, tips, shared equipment) that could result in unfair advantage. Oh, well, such is life.

...then join a club / start a club? Lot's of the 'clubs' are the virtual variety anyhow.

 

[remilard]

Lol. If you could channel this creativity to brewing instead of making excuses you would be a force to be reckoned with.

 

[bob1852]

No wonder the vast majority of homebrewers are affiliated to a club!

Fixed for truth.

 

[Indyking]

Lol. If you could channel this creativity to brewing instead of making excuses you would be a force to be reckoned with.

I'm not making excuses if that was directed to me, I’m not sure.

I'm just saying that according to the posted results, a good number of people and their affiliated clubs repeated as winners in 2010 and 2011.

Of course it is quite possible that the reason why these folks keep showing up in the first positions is simply because they are too good and my bias tells me the reason for that is a possible advantage given by well-resourced clubs. I suppose I would not be surprised if they are there again in the first positions in 2012, so why bother? Why waste money, time, and most important, beer on that?

Anyway, when you get judges in a national competition, BJCP-certified as I understand it, placing your beer in a category that does not even exists in the BJCP classification; when one tells your beer is well carbonated and the other calls the same beer flat, and when there are major disagreements between judges about beer body for the same beer, well, that alone is frustrating enough…

 

[AnOldUR]

Many clubs have several resources (recipes, tips, shared equipment) that could result in unfair advantage.

Sorry to shoot down your theory, but my only club affiliation is right here on HBT. Made to the second round this year and last on my first and second attempt. Clubs are great, but if you pay attention here and use all the other resources, they’re not necessary.

 

[Indyking]

Sorry to shoot down your theory, but my only club affiliation is right here on HBT. Made to the second round this year and last on my first and second attempt. Clubs are great, but if you pay attention here and use all the other resources, they’re not necessary.

That is just chery picking... look at the results, the vast majority there are from very active clubs that I could find info at google...

Anyway, congrats on your second round achievement.

 

[AnOldUR]

... the vast majority there are from very active clubs that I could find info at google...

They do well because they have the drive to learn all they can about the brewing process not because they belong to clubs. All that you're showing is that the majority choose to join clubs as a means of improving, not that it's a necessity for improvement.

 

[MalFet]

Are you claiming that the FACT that they are in a club gave them an unfair advantage (i.e., because the judges were biased, because nobody else could get their beers there on time, etc.), or that the EXPERIENCE of being in a club (i.e., practice, knowledge, enthusiasm, etc.) did?

If it's the first, you are incorrect. If it's the second...well...of course it did. What do you want, a competition only for the grossly inexperienced? Eligibility based on never having read a book, talked to another brewer, visited a forum, or seen a brewery? Special bonus points for brewers who have never tasted beer before? What a strange and terrible world you live in.

 

[ayoungrad]

Indyking...

I haven't found a more amusing set of posts in quite a while. I needed a good laugh.

Thank you.

 

[Indyking]

What a strange and terrible world you live in.

Sorry but I also do wonder what world you live yourself.

So do you think that all knowledgeable and experienced brewers out there belong to clubs, so according to the competition results, there are no or very little home brewers out there not affiliated to any club that were able to master the technique and produce great beer? That's hilarious! Thanks for the laugh!

ayongrad, I'm not funny, this guys is...

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Sorry but I also do wonder what world you live yourself.

So do you think that most knowladgible and experinced brewers out there belong to clubs, so accorinding to the competition results, there are no or very little homebrewers out there not affliated to any club that were able to master the technique and produce great beer? That's hillarious! Thanks for the laugh!

ayongrad, I'm not funny, this guys is...

It's not that they're not out there...they're just way less likely to enter competitions.

I wish I had a number to give you for the % of NHC entrants that were members of a HB club. Also, more experienced brewers are more likely to be in a club than less experienced brewers. I brewed for years before I joined a club.

 

[MalFet]

So do you think that all knowledgeable and experienced brewers out there belong to clubs, so according to the competition results, there are no or very little home brewers out there not affiliated to any club that were able to master the technique and produce great beer?

So you ARE talking conspiracy. I like it! I've long suspected that the BJCP was enthralled to the Illuminati. Seriously, though: you are accusing a respected organization (with many representatives on this board) of mass cheating. Classy.

Evidently, the majority of the country's top homebrewers (or at least those who are also interested in competitions) are in some vague way affiliated with a club. Is that a surprise? Why should it be? Most (but certainly not all) people who put the time and energy into getting to this level seek out other brewers. Most top-tier basketball players also played in high school, no? There's nothing to see here; move along.

 

[Indyking]

It's not that they're not out there...they're just way less likely to enter competitions.

I wish I had a number to give you for the % of NHC entrants that were members of a HB club. Also, more experienced brewers are more likely to be in a club than less experienced brewers. I brewed for years before I joined a club.

OK, that makes sense.

 

[Indyking]

So you ARE talking conspiracy. I like it! I've long suspected that the BJCP was enthralled to the Illuminati. Seriously, though: you are accusing a respected organization (with many representatives on this board) of mass cheating. Classy.

Evidently, the majority of the countries top homebrewers are in some vague way affiliated with a club. Is that a surprise? Why should it be? Most (but certainly not all) people who put the time and energy into getting to this level seek out other brewers. Most competitive basketball players also played in high school, no? There's nothing to see here; move along.

No, not a conspiracy! I just don't like to let things ignored when they are screaming at you. I did not check all judging centers. It may not be the same for all of them, but, in my center, a limited number of the same club-affiliation brewers were the winners in 2010 and 2011. OK, that may be just because, like SpanishCastleAle said, there were way more submissions from those clubs, but my understanding is that nobody can have more than 1 submission per subcategory. So, those clubs must be really good indeed in certain styles year after year…

 

[motobrewer]

So, those clubs must be really good indeed in certain styles year after year…

really!? club brewers are....good at brewing beer?!

good lord! my world is turned upside-fing-down!!!

 

[Indyking]

really!? club brewers are....good at brewing beer?!

good lord! my world is turned upside-fing-down!!!

You didn't get it, did you... not really worth spending time explaining... buy there was a "compared to" element here you seem to have completely missed. “good lord! my world is turned upside-fing-down!!!”... at your own terms. Lamentable.

 

[maskednegator]

QUAFF is 50% old dudes that have been brewing longer than I've been alive (since the days where the only craft beer was homebrew) and 50% young punks with a serious DIY streak that came of age in one of the greatest beer cities in the world.
I don't understand why you'd find it surprising that these types would congregate to share knowledge and collectively improve their fundamentally social hobby.

 

[mmb]

JZ brewed all the beer 12 years ago and just uses aliases to submit it for judging.

Best damn cream ale around, you can really taste the cream!

 

[McCheese352]

Sure, that's why it would not be fair to judge them against independent brewers! No wonder the vast majority of winners are affiliated to a club! Many clubs have several resources (recipes, tips, shared equipment) that could result in unfair advantage. Oh, well, such is life.

Ooohhh, now I understand why my beer doesn't do well in competition. It's because I dont belong to a homebrewing club. Right, it all makes sense now and here I was thinking that the reason my beer didn't do well is because it's just not as well brewed. How foolish of me to think such a thing. Well thats fantastic, I'm am going out right now and joining a homebrew club so I too can have a magical advantage over the competition.

Good grief.

 

[Indyking]

Ooohhh, now I understand why my beer doesn't do well in competition. It's because I dont belong to a homebrewing club. Right, it all makes sense now and here I was thinking that the reason my beer didn't do well is because it's just not as well brewed. How foolish of me to think such a thing. Well thats fantastic, I'm am going out right now and joining a homebrew club so I too can have a magical advantage over the competition.

Good grief.

Too bad there is not an animation in the smiles tab for facepalming!

 

[BrewThruYou]

JZ brewed all the beer 12 years ago and just uses aliases to submit it for judging.

I heard Gordon Strong won his 3 Ninkasis by brewing them under several aliases (Gorton Fong, Horton Wrong) and then gave his own entries 55/50.

 

[doctorRobert]

Sorry to shoot down your theory, but my only club affiliation is right here on HBT. Made to the second round this year and last on my first and second attempt. Clubs are great, but if you pay attention here and use all the other resources, they’re not necessary.

I have a beer going to the 2nd round too, and I put down the brewing network as my club. Again, not really a club.

The clubs that win are competitive in nature. It was my expectation that the majority of winners would be from clubs. They have the resources (both in equipment and knowledge) to make better beer.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I heard Gordon Strong won his 3 Ninkasis by brewing them under several aliases (Gorton Fong, Horton Wrong) and then gave his own entries 55/50.

This year's Ninkasi will be an HBT member. You heard it here first folks.

 

[TheMan]

Indyking, If you enter enough competitions you'll find that the winners are commonly in clubs. That doesn't mean that you can't win without being in one. I get tons of enjoyment out of entering competitions and winning while not being in a club.

I even went to an award ceremony for a competition that was nearby just to see what it was like. All the people in attendance were from the club sponsoring it, and then me. It was exciting when I took Runner up BOS and saw all their faces shocked that 1)I was actually there and 2) Some random nobody almost won the top prize.

I have placed well in the majority of competitions I have entered, I don't see any bias toward the clubs. Hell, I took a first place ribbon in a competition in North Carolina (I live near Chicago). To anyone doubting the integrity of the judging...the bottles are unlabeled with simply a number on it (or other indicator). The judges don't know who who brewed a beer or where they are from. I truly believe the best beer wins with no bias.

Now, opposing critiques? That is a frustration that you will have to deal with because unfortunately it happens regularly. Remilard gave me great advice on dealing with this, trust the higher ranked judge of the beer. And if you really want to know what is up with a beer then you need to get it judged several times and then you will see a trend.

Come to think of it, I should probably start using HBT as the club affiliation...I owe quite a bit of my brewing knowledge to you guys and gals on this forum.

 

[SwampassJ]

Homebrew Club = 10, 20, 30 or more tasters to review each others beers and offer critiques.

Us Non-club members = SWMBO, ooh that's bitter! Or that's Fruity! It's Ok.

You're dealing with a few dozen experienced tongues vs. a HANDFUL of family and friends who drink either Bud, Miller or White Zinfidel. Next time I see someone with a hot woman I'm blaming the clubs.

 

[Indyking]

Indyking, If you enter enough competitions you'll find that the winners are commonly in clubs. That doesn't mean that you can't win without being in one. I get tons of enjoyment out of entering competitions and winning while not being in a club.

I even went to an award ceremony for a competition that was nearby just to see what it was like. All the people in attendance were from the club sponsoring it, and then me. It was exciting when I took Runner up BOS and saw all their faces shocked that 1)I was actually there and 2) Some random nobody almost won the top prize.

I have placed well in the majority of competitions I have entered, I don't see any bias toward the clubs. Hell, I took a first place ribbon in a competition in North Carolina (I live near Chicago). To anyone doubting the integrity of the judging...the bottles are unlabeled with simply a number on it (or other indicator). The judges don't know who who brewed a beer or where they are from. I truly believe the best beer wins with no bias.

Now, opposing critiques? That is a frustration that you will have to deal with because unfortunately it happens regularly. Remilard gave me great advice on dealing with this, trust the higher ranked judge of the beer. And if you really want to know what is up with a beer then you need to get it judged several times and then you will see a trend.

Come to think of it, I should probably start using HBT as the club affiliation...I owe quite a bit of my brewing knowledge to you guys and gals on this forum.

You are The man

Thanks. Very nice feedback.

I really think the “opposing critiques” is a huge flaw for BJCP-certified judges and should not happen. Disagreement about degrees of the same defect is all right, they are human beings after all, but a totally different opinion in the same feature for the very same beer is a good proof that the certification process is far from great. I'm not going to even risk the word “perfect” because I know it is not possible, but they should be great if a high standard was to be established.

 

[mmb]

You are The man

Thanks. Very nice feedback.

I really think the “opposing critiques” is a huge flaw for BJCP-certified judges and should not happen. Disagreement about degrees of the same defect is all right, they are human beings after all, but a totally different opinion in the same feature for the very same beer is a good proof that the certification process is far from great. I'm not going to even risk the word “perfect” because I know it is not possible, but they should be great if a high standard was to be established.

Then take the course and be a judge. Totally thankless job and you have to seriously judge swill you would normally spit out or dump.

 

[wildwest450]

Then take the course and be a judge. Totally thankless job and you have to seriously judge swill you would normally spit out or dump.

Nobody's holding a gun to their heads.


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