Another foamy pour thread

[DC-Brewer]

Ive got a problem I can’t find a thread on. My first half pour from the kegerator is pretty good. Then it gets foamy. All subsequent pours are foam. Until tomorrow. Then first half pour is good.

I’ve got a coffin keezer with nine taps and this happens on almost every line. Running 13 psi with 15 feet of 3/16 line. The nine taps are run off of two regs with splitters. Both currently set at 13 psi. Essentially beer that rests in the line for awhile seems to be fine.

All lines have been cleaned with a sump pump on recirc. Perlick taps are clean.

Any thoughts are welcome. I’ve got a sweet nine tap setup I’ve been using for years and I’m almost ready to start bottling again.

 

[SanPancho]

Happens to every beer or just one or two?

 

[day_trippr]

Your sweet nine tap setup that you've been using for years has suddenly gone rogue?
That's pretty weird - one would think having all 9 taps behaving like that would be easily linked to some change that would be the obvious cause.

Normally when someone reports massive foaming pours and there are ball lock kegs involved there's a damaged or missing O-ring under the Out diptube flange that is allowing CO2 in the keg head space to inject right into the beer at the Out post. But the odds of that happening on 9 kegs has to be tiny unless there's been pathological mishandling of all those kegs (also a wicked long-shot).

As well, it's pretty rare syndrome where the first half of a pour is "ok" but the rest are Foam City (it's usually the other way 'round).

So, I can't come up with a likely cause based on the information given. The whole thing seems extraordinary. Maybe more data would help...

Cheers!

 

[DC-Brewer]

7/9 are affected. Cider doesn’t foam but it’s cider. I have an ipa that pours pretty. Foaming has been an issue with me for the last five years. Mostly solved with a nice fan that circulates the coffin. Used to have foamy first pours that are common as cornbread. This new problem has gotten me beat.

Using pin locks btw. Don’t know if that matters

 

[day_trippr]

Pin locks are subject to the same Out diptube O-ring issue, but again, that sure seems unlikely across so many kegs.
Is there any chance your temperature control has gone to heck? If the kegs are warming for long cycles the beer therein can't hold as much CO2 and break-out will happen...

Cheers!

 

[SanPancho]

Second the oring issue. Been there done that.

But 7 of 9? Dunno.

Would seem to indicate the keg is warmer than the beer lines, which is odd but possible.

Are your kegs crammed together? Maybe the lines are cold from good air movement but kegs are too close for good airflow. Maybe the 2 good ones are touching the sides of cooler so getting cold?

Thats all i got.

 

[day_trippr]

Yeah, the 7 of 9 makes this quite curious - one would think all of the classic keg maladies would not apply.
I mean, pin-holed diptubes can do that - but in 7 years on HBT I've only read of two such cases, total.
But, maybe a bit closer in the odds department: are the seven beers hoppy enough to suspect plugged poppets?

Still, I'm thinking a system malady. Temperature control gone amuck or simply not keeping up.
Or, maybe a faulty regulator or gauge has led to consistent over-carbing - or the dispensing regulator is set too low for the carbonation level...

Cheers!

ps: I always thought Seven Of Nine was the hottest actress on Star Trek

 

[DC-Brewer]

Will check the temps in coffin and in the kegs tomorrow. At same time will change o rings on a few kegs to see if that changes anything. I googled and some people said use two o rings. Any advice on that or just a new o ring under the dip tube?

 

[day_trippr]

I have 16 kegs with just the standard complement of O-rings, so I'm inclined to dismiss that approach as unnecessary.
But I think doing a direct-replacement of that O-ring on your foamiest keg is worth doing, even if it just eliminates that as the root cause of the wide-spread problem.

Be sure to lubricate that O-ring well, even if you only have water. The compression force combined with the rotational force makes that the worst place for a dry O-ring...

Cheers!

 

[DC-Brewer]

Added a second o ring last night. Pours on that keg got much worse. Went from 50/50 beer foam to straight foam. Going to simply replace and lube a new o ring tonight?

Should it be an immediate fix if that’s the problem?

Do pin lock and ball locks have the same o ring under the dip tube. I bought special ones for the gas post to stop some leaking issues I’ve had.

 

[day_trippr]

iirc original pin locks used quad-seal rings (the square cross-section rings) around the dip tubes, but then again a few of my ball locks had those as well. I replaced them all using standard, round O-rings without any issues. I'm pretty sure the dip tube diameters are the same for both style kegs so I expect round rings will work.

Yes, if the cause of your foamy pours is due to that ring failing, replacing it should give immediate relief...

Cheers!

 

[DC-Brewer]

No luck with the o rings. Pours actually getting worse still. Now 100% foam.

I put my sounding on the gas Post and it was pegged past 15. I put a cobra tap with 7 feet of 3/16 on the beer side to eliminate causes in the taps. Foamy as hell.

Spunding down to 12 overnight. Sounds like a regulator issue on at least one of my two regs. It still ready 11. Anyone seen this before or have ideas?

 

[day_trippr]

Well, as I posited earlier, consistent over-carbonation was on the list of possibilities.
I'd use your spunding gauge to check all of your regulators to see how accurate their low side gauges are...

Cheers!

 

[DC-Brewer]

I’ve emptied both kegs ive spunded to test. Been a long day! Good friends are always willing to help sample. Need to brew I guess.

You were dead on about the reg based on the two I’ve tested. How would you prevent or isolate this in the future. I think this happened to me the last time I replaced all of my lines due to foaming. Lines at 15-20 feet helped but still fast pours.

Should I put another gauge at the end of the co2 manifold to give me a backup pressure? Do I need to replace the reg or just the gauge?

Well, as I posited earlier, consistent over-carbonation was on the list of possibilities.
I'd use your spunding gauge to check all of your regulators to see how accurate their low side gauges are...

Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

If your regulator maintains a steady setting (even if it's not the pressure you actually wanted) the problem must be an inaccurate gauge. Otoh, if the regulator has shown signs of drift, it probably has an internal issue like a cracked diaphragm or a pin valve that's seizing, either of which would require an inexpensive rebuild kit and around 15 minutes to fix. You should be able to figure out which syndrome you're dealing with using your spunding rig gauge.

I don't think it's necessary to have another low-side gauge permanently installed in a CO2 system. Assuming the regulator itself isn't at fault and you've identified a low-side gauge or two that are significantly off then you can either make note of it and adjust accordingly, or replace the gauge(s) outright to put the problem behind you.

fwiw, I can remove the gas QD from my spunding valve rig and thread on a keg gas post using a post adapter, which makes it trivial to check regulator settings (just plug on a gas QD) and verify the regulator gauges are performing as expected. It's proven handy for testing new regulators, and especially when something hinky arises, which with seven regulators in service does occasionally happen...

Cheers!

 

[DC-Brewer]

That’s a brilliant suggestion. I may rig one of those up with a pressure gauge that goes to at least 30 to spot check regulators. Having multiple lines has led to many more frustrations than when I had two kegs in a fridge with cobra taps.

This is the second time I’ve had a failed regulator. I’ve seen threads before saying there’s no difference in keeping them in the keezer vs out but do you think there’s a difference in their life expectancy?

If your regulator maintains a steady setting (even if it's not the pressure you actually wanted) the problem must be an inaccurate gauge. Otoh, if the regulator has shown signs of drift, it probably has an internal issue like a cracked diaphragm or a pin valve that's seizing, either of which would require an inexpensive rebuild kit and around 15 minutes to fix. You should be able to figure out which syndrome you're dealing with using your spunding rig gauge.

I don't think it's necessary to have another low-side gauge permanently installed in a CO2 system. Assuming the regulator itself isn't at fault and you've identified a low-side gauge or two that are significantly off then you can either make note of it and adjust accordingly, or replace the gauge(s) outright to put the problem behind you.

fwiw, I can remove the gas QD from my spunding valve rig and thread on a keg gas post using a post adapter, which makes it trivial to check regulator settings (just plug on a gas QD) and verify the regulator gauges are performing as expected. It's proven handy for testing new regulators, and especially when something hinky arises, which with seven regulators in service does occasionally happen...

Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

I've never located a regulator inside any of my fridges or keezer so I can't testify for or against the notion.

My inclination is if one allows 24 hours for a regulator to reach thermal equilibrium (after being relocated to the inside of a cooler) it should perform just like it was still outside. The only issues I might expect would be essentially cosmetic - brass can grow verdigris with prolonged exposed to moisture (I've seen pictures on HBT of "greening" regulators in swampy keezers) and warped gauge faces (many are made from coated cardboard these days)...

Cheers!

 

[gnef]

The internals of gauges can definitely have problems at refrigerator temperatures. I have had a couple 'freeze' on me due to corrosion, and then I needed to replace them.

The other thing to keep in mind as well is that diaphragm changes in pressure regulation can be a bit slowed at refrigeration temps, so it may appear to drift over the course of a day.

I personally got tired of all my old, used, and cheap gauges, and have replaced all my gauges with Winters P9S gauges which are accurate to 2/1/2 and can be rezeroed. I have different ranges for my different uses (many primary regulators, a few secondary regulators, a couple spunding valves, etc. it was an expensive replacement, but worth it for me).

I also built a test gauge using a Wika 4 inch test gauge that is accurate to .25% of span. I use this once to twice a year to check all my gauges. It has fittings for a second gauge, john guest push connect, and ball lock. I also offer it as a service to others in the club since it isn't the kind of thing that most brewers will have.

 

[DC-Brewer]

What kind of regs are you using. Happy to spend a little money to buy the right stuff the first time.

The internals of gauges can definitely have problems at refrigerator temperatures. I have had a couple 'freeze' on me due to corrosion, and then I needed to replace them.

The other thing to keep in mind as well is that diaphragm changes in pressure regulation can be a bit slowed at refrigeration temps, so it may appear to drift over the course of a day.

I personally got tired of all my old, used, and cheap gauges, and have replaced all my gauges with Winters P9S gauges which are accurate to 2/1/2 and can be rezeroed. I have different ranges for my different uses (many primary regulators, a few secondary regulators, a couple spunding valves, etc. it was an expensive replacement, but worth it for me).

I also built a test gauge using a Wika 4 inch test gauge that is accurate to .25% of span. I use this once to twice a year to check all my gauges. It has fittings for a second gauge, john guest push connect, and ball lock. I also offer it as a service to others in the club since it isn't the kind of thing that most brewers will have.

What kind

 

[gnef]

What kind of regs are you using. Happy to spend a little money to buy the right stuff the first time.




What kind

For regulators, mine are all used from when I just needed to buy a lot of equipment. I have a taprite, a NADS (north america dispense systems, which was bought by taprite), a couple norgren, and a few perlick primary regulators.

Given that, what is generally recommended as a solid product are the taprite regulators. I know micromatic used to have a pretty good following as well, but I'm not sure if they are still considered as good as they were.

I would definitely stay away from the budget regulators that are super cheap and typically made in China.

If I were to buy a regulator new right now, I would be looking at a taprite with dual gauges.

If you also want to know about the gauges, I have been replacing all of mine with Winters P9S gauges, some 0-15, 0-30, and 0-60 psi ranges, depending on where I was putting them, and the ones I bought were either 2 inch face or 2.5 inch face. I am a big fan of these, and most of them can be found for around $15 a piece or so, depending on model. I have bought over a dozen in total for all my different uses, and I don't plan on using anything different at this point - in fact, if I were to buy a new regulator right now, I would replace the gauge with one of these. They are accurate to 2/1/2, which means 2% for the first third, 1% for the middle third, and 2% for the last third, so think about what psi range you will be using, and try to get the gauge where you will be using it in the middle third typically. These can also be rezeroed, but you need a reference gauge, which is why I built my test gauge apparatus.

Let me know if you want to know any more info about what I've done with my gas systems!