All of my beers are bad.

[Toto's]

I am planing to add a whirlpool in my boiling kettle and bump into this post:
--

I used to do loose hops but found weird off flavor from maybe my hops sitting in the fermenter? Almost like a medicinal taste. Could never really pinpoint it but bagging has seemed to help....

This is caused by the hops being in contact with a significant amount of yeast for too long of a period of time. By bagging them the hops aren’t coming in contact with the yeast cake sitting in the bottom of a fermenter.
End of quote

I dont recall if you already mentioned if you use a bag for your hop or not and if you wait for the sediments to fell down a little before transfering to your fermenter.

 

[Jag75]

I think the best idea is what was posted earlier by @Big Monk about brewing an extract kit . If it comes out good then you'll be on a fast track to understanding what's going on.

 

[Sauls]

Never used Bar Keepers Friend outside of the kitchen pots and pans. How does it compare to PBW?

I Dawn clean the mash tun gear, PBW the boil equipment, fermenters and kegs, and StarSan sanitize the fermenters and kegs. I find the RIMS tube from brewhardware.com and the Riptide pump to be extremely easy to disassemble to clean and dry and then reassemble. I'm very lazy when it comes to the valves, my bad!

Me personally never use any dish soap at all. Not saying this may be a issue as I’m still a rookie, but maybe as your testing eliminate soap, stick with pbw, StarSan and check out those ball valve guys. Good luck!

 

[BarryBrews]

Two things that may have nothing to do with your beer issue but pop out enough to ask.

First, is your candi sugar predissolved or at least the heating element turned off while stirring it into the kettle? Problem would be burning the sugar on the heated bottom. I add the candi sugar to a hop basket placed in the kettle to dissolve it.

Second, it's seems like a very young beer and should improve with time. I use kveik and drink beers that soon, but with more traditional yeasts 2 to 3 months from brew day is normal.

 

[bwible]

First of all, you all are awesome and this community is great. Thank you so much for the help. Here's hopefully a good breakdown of my full process for my latest finished beer, an amber ale that I wanted to be on the sweeter side. It's been in a keg for two weeks and tastes just like the others (bad). My best explanation is bitter, harsh, and slightly chemical. My wife and I have been trying to assign more 'flavors' to the problem (medicinal, green apple, vinegar) and have been striking out a bit - I don't think my palate is tuned to these off flavors well. My foundry is the 10.5 gallon and I run it on 240v. Here's the full process (which I took directly from the Foundry manual) and recipe:

4 lbs Maris Otter
5 lbs 2-row
1.5 lbs Crystal 80L
1 lb Amber Candi Sugar

.5 oz Chinook (60 minutes)
.5 oz Chinook (10 minutes)
1 oz Willamette (0 minutes)

...

I kegged this on 11/24 at a FG of 1.007

Candi sugar really has no place in an amber ale. Candi sugar is an ingredient normally confined to Belgian ales. It has a very specific flavor not really appropriate outside of Belgian ales. And a whole pound is over the top. I’m assuming this is not supposed to be a Belgian ale, since US-05 is not a Belgian yeast. If you want to use sugar to boost gravity, use corn sugar. It’s 100% fermentable, same thing we use for priming. Or you can use dry malt extract.

Far as balance, there are tables out there that give the BU:GU ratios by style. Ray Daniels talks alot about this in Designing Great Beers. This is a ratio of Bittering Units to Gravity Units. For example, if you look up amber ale and find the BU:GU is .6 and your beer is 1.050 OG then you multiply 50 by .6 and shoot for 30 IBUs. This is how you balance your beers.

I’m not in a place where I can run this recipe through my calculator, but you need to run the numbers and look at your gravity and bitter numbers.

 

[movinvan]

Most brewing problems are due to the lack of cleanliness. You need to clean before each step. Tasting along the way is important also.

If your wort tastes astringent and has no sweetness. the specific gravity is probably too low (well under 1.040) so you might want to add malt extract before boiling to get the pre-boil specific gravity to 1.040. The boil will increase the gravity as the water boils off. Draw off a small sample and taste it. Use a boiled spoon if your draw is taken less than 15 minutes before cool down. You should taste some sweetness and graininess.

If you have a lot of small grain particles in your wort, they will add astringency. I use a sieve and scoop out the big particles (not just hops) before the last 15 minutes of the boil.

Make sure that your fermentation bucket is not just apparently clean but sprayed with Starsan (or equivalent) so that it is free of yeast and bacteria that will add unwanted flavor to your beer.

You need to be scrupulous in your cleaning of your bottles and/or keg as well.

Taste your beer at each step along the way. It should be pleasant at each step.

Unless your water is completely off, you should not have to try to improve water chemistry for basic brewing. Bottled spring water from your local super market is an easy way to have a consistent, free-of-additives, clean and safe water source for about $1 per gallon.

Join a local homebrewer club and participate in a brewing event. Until the Covid-19 pandemic is over, you will have to watch from your home and ask questions.

 

[TheMadKing]

There are a lot of strong opinions being tossed around as facts in here that may be confusing to newer brewers so I'm going to address some of them. I intend no offense to the original owners, but I would like folks to consider whether they are offering opinion or fact. I am guilty of this as well and I am working to correct it in all my posts. If we all do our part, this forum will be a better resource for newer brewers.

• Hops being in contact with yeast does not cause off flavors, if this were true then the entire industry making Hazy IPA's would not exist. My understanding, based on experience and research is that large amounts of hop matter suspended in your beer (regardless of yeast) will extract polyphenols from the hop matter and mercaptin compounds which can result in astringency, vegital flavors, and onion/garlic/sewage (sulfer based) flavors, but not medicinal flavors. Medicinal is normally associated with chlorine in the brewing water, or phenolic yeast issues.
• Candi sugar can have a place in any beer you add it to. I have successfully used candi sugar in stouts, amber ales, IPA's and the more traditional belgians. It is just a simple sugar and nearly ferments out and leaves very little flavor. It can contribute some flavor depending on color, but for the most part it simply thins mouthfeel and increases ABV. Assigning specific ingredients to specific styles is contrary to innovation and creativity in my opinion.
• "Most brewing problems are due to a lack of cleanliness" is in general, not bad advice but in my experience (and this is just my opinion) infections are relatively rare and more brewing problems are caused by process and yeast handling than by cleanliness
• Beer may not taste pleasant at each step. I have had beers that were horribly bitter, very strong in alcohol, or very high in diacetyl that were awful late in the fermentation and improved drastically over time until they became quite good. In a general sense though, you should indeed be able to taste glaring off flavors earlier in the process but this is not always the case, and many off flavors will dissipate over time.
• Ignoring water chemistry for basic brewing isn't great advice in my opinion. Many "basic brewers" have high chlorine water or very hard tap water that may taste ok for drinking but is unsuitable for brewing. Using bottled spring water is not bad advice necessarily, but it might be best to have your water tested before adding $10 to the price of every batch of beer.

Again, I'm not intending this as an attack on the original posts, just trying to make sure we are not propagating things that are "sometimes true" as "always true".

Cheers

 

[MackDan]

In your process you state that you rake the top 1/3 of the gain bed at 25 min and 40 min. Why?

You also state that you raise the basket at 60 min. but there has been no change in your temperature? did you raise the mash temp to 170F?

Then you start raising the temp to get to boil. But you are still recirculating through the mash? Or just letting the mash drain?

Medical aroma and taste are phenolics in beer and is typically from a reaction with Chlorine, or Chlorine type chemicals. But it can be a by product of a contaminated fermentation.
The most obvious one is the chlorine or Chloramine in tap water. But the spring water should not have that?
When do you did brew with tap water, you used a Campden tablet (Sodium Metabisulfite) to react out the chlorine disinfectant in the water?

What soaps are you suing to clean the Foundry?

 

[alexipa]

In your process you state that you rake the top 1/3 of the gain bed at 25 min and 40 min. Why?

You also state that you raise the basket at 60 min. but there has been no change in your temperature? did you raise the mash temp to 170F?

Then you start raising the temp to get to boil. But you are still recirculating through the mash? Or just letting the mash drain?

Medical aroma and taste are phenolics in beer and is typically from a reaction with Chlorine, or Chlorine type chemicals. But it can be a by product of a contaminated fermentation.
The most obvious one is the chlorine or Chloramine in tap water. But the spring water should not have that?
When do you did brew with tap water, you used a Campden tablet (Sodium Metabisulfite) to react out the chlorine disinfectant in the water?

What soaps are you suing to clean the Foundry?

The raking and the no mash-out is because I've been following the instructions that came with the foundry exactly. I figured I'd start there, as it's tried and true, and experiment later. I stop recirculating after the mash is complete at 60 mins, then raise the basket, then raise the temp. I thought this taste was 100% phenols at first, which is why I went directly to altering water. I think I've ruled that out at this point.

I've been using oxyclean to clean and starsan to sanitize. I'm going to try bar keepers friend next (and stick with starsan as sanitizer).

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm going to try bar keepers friend next

Stick with unscented Oxiclean for general brewery equipment cleaning. Or simply washing soda, which is Oxiclean without the oxygen.

And yes, Starsan for sanitizing. A working solution can be stored for weeks, months even.

Adding some (30%) of TSP or TSP/90 to (70%) Oxiclean makes homemade PBW, a more heavy duty cleaner than Oxiclean by itself. Use that where it counts.

Your kettle...
First off, I'm not sure the kettle actually needs (re-)passivation, but it may need a good, thorough cleaning.

Bar Keepers Friend (BKF) is NOT a general purpose cleaner, it's a fine scouring powder, similar to Comet, but without chlorine. Chlorine is very bad for stainless, especially when stronger and with prolonged exposure. It "eats" it, leaving pits. BKF contains oxalic acid. It removes scale, oils, and grime from (stainless) surfaces after fabrication, machining, etc. leaving it clean and shiny.

From what I understand BKF does not remove the passivation oxides on stainless surfaces that are already there. But using it on unpassivated surfaces may leave new iron particles exposed after removing grime, etc. That's the main reason to re-passivate the surface (it removes the iron particles), while leaving Chrome and Nickel oxides behind that make it stainless, and impervious to many chemicals and the brewing environment.

Sadly the oxalic acid in BKF is not strong enough to (re)passivate stainless, you'd need to use Citric Acid for that. Look up how that's done.

In short, in larger vessels, instead of filling them with 10-15 gallons of citric acid solution (it's very wasteful), it may be better to make a strong, thick solution of Citric Acid and continuously wipe it on the (now clean) stainless surfaces. It needs to be in contact for a few hours.
Maybe someone can chime in on that.

Use long rubber gloves and a face shield, or at least goggles, when handling/touching the acid.

Maybe contact Anvil about the need for this?

 

[alexipa]

This is great info. I'll contact Anvil as this seems like quite a process.

 

[MackDan]

Hm..
Not raising the mash temperature will leave some sugars and starches behind in the grain. And your efficiency will likely be low. Which could make your beer thin, and then the hops would be too strong. Why does Anvil recommend not raising the temp to 167-170F?

Cleaning: If I use PBW or a stronger cleanser lie Barkeepers friend or Comet I always follow that up with a dawn soap solution wash. Those cleaners, specifically the cleanser types don't seem to rinse off well.

And your heating up the system a little with the cleaner (several gallons) in there and pumping it? Then clean water, pump, dump, fill with clean water, pump, dump, fill with clean water, pump, dump? What's that process in detail?

 

[VikeMan]

Hm..
Not raising the mash temperature will leave some sugars and starches behind in the grain. And your efficiency will likely be low.

Personally, I usually do mash outs, but I do it to denature enzymes. The very small theoretical impact to efficiency (due to a change (or no change) in wort viscosity) wouldn't be causing OP's efficiency issue.

IIRC, Kai ran an experiment and found no measurable difference in efficiency between a cold water sparge and a hot water sparge.

Now, if "starches" are being left behind, that's a conversion issue. If raising the temperature could fix that, it would indicate that the mash simply wasn't long enough, and that the extra time during the gradual ramp-up to mash out temps added the needed time.

 

[Bobby_M]

It stayed between 62-64 the entire fermentation period.

I kegged this on 11/24 at a FG of 1.007. I tried some just last night and it was the same badness as the others (about 8 in total at this point). These beers always look beautiful though and this one was no different.

The crushed grain looked like all of the pictures I've seen of a good grain crush, but I can't say exactly what the mill was set to unfortunately. Here's the chemical analysis of the water: Eldorado Springs Water Chemical Analysis .
Thanks again everyone.

I know there are a lot of replies after the above post but I only have time to respond real quick so it already may have been said.. anyway...

1.007 is a little dry but not too bad. I doubt this is the total contributor to your issues. It's possible the actual mash temp was closer to 148F so check the core of the mash with a handheld fast reading digital to compare to what the controller thinks it is. The real reason it dried out that much is the pound of candy sugar. I'm not sure you're aware that adding highly fermentable sugar to a beer will make alcohol without any body to back it up. In other words, adding sugar is like mashing colder which increases a beer's fermentability. To be even more clear, adding highly fermentable sugar makes a beer LESS sweet.

Water: That spring water has no chloride and low calcium. You can make things better with a couple grams of Calcium Chloride which will fix the low calcium problem and round out the Sulfate to chloride ratio.

That yeast will do fine in that temp range for the peak fermentation period but you really need to hit it with some heat when the ferment slows. Temp control is very important here. Add a heat wrap to your inkbird and set it to 68 for about a week after the fermentation starts to slow down. This will wipe out any Acetaldehyde you may be having an issue with.

The final thing is that you had the beer in a bucket for a month which is great for clarity but buckets are pretty oxygen permeable by itself but they are also known for leaky lids. I think you may also have a little oxidation damage.

Edit: I went through the other responses and have a few comments. There is no need to raise temp to a mash out for an all in one full volume mash brew. As soon as the basket was pulled, he was up to mash out temps within a 10 minutes anyway. What a temp ramp towards the end WOULD do is bump the OG up just a bit.

It's possible that there's an infection at work here but it's really hard to know for sure.

 

[chipmunk]

I let the wort from the foundry flow through the valve, through a sanitized mesh screen, and into the fermentation bucket. Once it's all in, I pitched the entire packet of US-05 (no starter) at about 64 degrees

Is the only oxygenation you’re doing through the screen? Perhaps the new system doesn’t work as well as your old system for aerating the wort when you transfer - like lower height, less splashing, etc.

 

[VikeMan]

Is the only oxygenation you’re doing through the screen? Perhaps the new system doesn’t work as well as your old system for aerating the wort when you transfer - like lower height, less splashing, etc.

Note that the yeast strain was US-05. Oxygenation is not normally needed when pitching dry yeast.

 

[alexipa]

1.007 is a little dry but not too bad. I doubt this is the total contributor to your issues. It's possible the actual mash temp was closer to 148F so check the core of the mash with a handheld fast reading digital to compare to what the controller thinks it is. The real reason it dried out that much is the pound of candy sugar. I'm not sure you're aware that adding highly fermentable sugar to a beer will make alcohol without any body to back it up. In other words, adding sugar is like mashing colder which increases a beer's fermentability. To be even more clear, adding highly fermentable sugar makes a beer LESS sweet.

I did indeed forget that candi sugar will dry the beer out and not sweeten it, thanks for that reminder. I'm going to leave that out next time I brew this. That is definitely contributing to the harsh flavor I bet.

The bucket I use is the anvil stainless steel bucket, so I don't think oxygen is going to be a factor (at least during fermentation). The seal seems really solid.

I had an AG kit on hand so I brewed it yesterday after fully cleaning all of my equipment with BKF, oxiclean, and then sanitizing with starsan. Lot's of rinsing in between each step (except after sanitizing). I mashed at 152 and did raise the temp to 170 for 5-10 minutes at mashout this time. Used tap water with a campden tablet. I hit ~65% efficiency, so I did see a boost! Still low though. The wort tasted fine going into the fermenter. Pitched US-04 at 64 degrees. If this beer turns out good, I'm going to fly to each of your houses and kiss you.

I'm going to brew the extract 'test' batch this upcoming weekend.

 

[IslandLizard]

I hit ~65% efficiency, so I did see a boost! Still low though.

Good to hear you're brewing again!

Recirculation mash systems are more finicky than simple fill, stir, and "let be" methods.
The right grist "structure" (for the mash system used) is much more important than with a non-recirculation mash.

For example the fineness to coarseness of the various grain particles, sheer husk content and amount of husk shredding are important factors for permeability. So is the way the wort is recirculated and how it re-enters the grist. Faster recirculation is not better, diffusion it still the driving force, and too much heat applied to the returned wort may/will change enzyme activity and possibly denature some prematurely.

You'll get there.

How long did you mash for, and how accurate were those temps?

 

[IslandLizard]

brewed it yesterday after fully cleaning all of my equipment with BKF, oxiclean, and then sanitizing with starsan.

Do you think the BKF removed any tarnish? It could have become darker gray or even brownish. Did the kettle and ferm bucket look shinier, perhaps slicker, smoother, afterward?

 

[alexipa]

How long did you mash for, and how accurate were those temps?

I mashed for 70 minutes... I think I had the temps dead on except for a spike around 20 minutes to ~157ish. The foundry gets a little excited on that first dip, trying to get the temp back to 152 and overshoots it. This happens every time, so I can plan for it next time. I still didn't mess with the grain crush this go, so that could still be the efficiency problem.

Do you think the BKF removed any tarnish? It could have become darker gray or even brownish. Did the kettle and ferm bucket look shinier, perhaps slicker, smoother, afterward?

It removed a lot I believe. I had some baked-on gunk in the bottom of the kettle and some brown spots on the recirculation plate (both now gone). Additionally, I didn't realize the entire ball lock valve came apart for cleaning. I took it all apart and found some serious build up. The kettle has a different sheen inside now, I could actually see the parts I missed with the BKF easily and went back to touch those up. Interesting stuff!

 

[IslandLizard]

I didn't realize the entire ball lock valve came apart for cleaning. I took it all apart and found some serious build up.

Gunk inside a kettle valve can cause serious wort infections. Even boiling wort going through it, or it being near the heated bottom doesn't seem to kill all the bugs in there.
One of my brew friends found a thick black, tarry substance in the ball cavity of his kettle valve after al his new beer was turning sour. The associated slick, buttery flavor was undeniably due to Pediococcus, a very helpful bacteria when making mixed fermentation sours, but should not be in clean beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

The kettle has a different sheen inside now,

I really hope you eliminated some of your brewing issues with that.
I wouldn't use BKF every time you brew, only when "necessary." Once the surface is clean and shiny like that, much less will cling to it, either.

 

[IslandLizard]

I mashed for 70 minutes... I think I had the temps dead on except for a spike around 20 minutes to ~157ish. The foundry gets a little excited on that first dip, trying to get the temp back to 152 and overshoots it. This happens every time, so I can plan for it next time.

Using lower power during recirc will also help prevent scorching and overshooting.
Ideally, your strike water is at such a (higher) temp that when you drop the grain basket in it and stirring the grist well, the whole mash it as close to your intended mash temp, of say 152F. The recirc should add just enough heat to keep it there.

I would also wrap some insulation (a few layers of Reflectix, a thick blanket or old sleeping bag, etc.) around the kettle and lay some on top of the lid, to reduce heat loss to the environment.

This graph may help in understanding how temp influences the mash enzymes, and thus the resulting wort composition:

 

[alexipa]

I run the foundry at 45% power during the mash, but it's a good point that I really shouldn't have to have much, if any, power. I'll try the insulation and only run it if necessary next time.

I do think the gunk and general uncleanliness of the kettle is going to make a difference. I'm excited about this latest AG (porter)!

 

[Knightshade]

I mashed for 70 minutes... I think I had the temps dead on except for a spike around 20 minutes to ~157ish. The foundry gets a little excited on that first dip, trying to get the temp back to 152 and overshoots it. This happens every time, so I can plan for it next time. I still didn't mess with the grain crush this go, so that could still be the efficiency problem.

I have same system on 240, I haven't got it 100% dialed in yet but I ramped power down to 75% for the exact same reason. At 100, it is definitely over eager.

 

[alexipa]

I have same system on 240, I haven't got it 100% dialed in yet but I ramped power down to 75% for the exact same reason. At 100, it is definitely over eager.

Yeah good call. It still does it at 45% which is where I have it! At 100%, it's pretty volatile.

 

[alexipa]

I'm back! Reviving this to hopefully help someone. I've been experimenting over the past 6 months or so. I'm still determined to make good beer, and I've realized that my standards are unreasonably high (but I'm keeping them there).

I had a bunch of grains hanging around, so I started with changing little parts of my process to isolate what was causing the specific off flavor. After changing literally everything except water to no avail, I switched to extract. I have 3 extract beers back under my belt and none had the flavor! That means the problem is likely my mash. These beers aren't great but I'm not interested in dialing in an extract process. I just wanted to get rid of this specific flavor.

I've brought samples of my beers to some homebrew shops and other home brewers, they've all said my mash pH is likely off. I figured my water wasn't ideal, but I always thought non-ideal water was the difference between good and great beer, not necessarily bad to good beer. I've had a few people also suggest that this could be adding to my efficiency issues as well.

Fast forward to today, I brewed that same amber from before with a tried and true water makeup using bottled water + additives. This is one of the best malty ambers I've had. I feel like I can finally make good beer.

Thank you to everyone who helped in this thread.

...Also my efficiency still sucks. Baby steps!

 

[jerrylotto]

Bottled water can be a wide variety of things. Do you mean bottled DISTILLED water or bottled SPRING water? What did you add to it?

Also, buy a pH meter, even a cheap one is going to work better than guessing.

 

[bwible]

That’s great!

If you have it down to water, get your water tested by Ward labs. I think it’s $30. They will give you all the numbers. I had mine done last year and it was $30 well spent.

There are a couple spreadsheets you can download. Brun water is one, or EZ water calculator, something like that.

You plug in the numbers from your water report and your grain bill and it will predict your water chemistry and mash ph. You can enter acid malt or liquid acid to adjust ph. Gypsum, Calcium Chloride or whatever and see how the numbers change.

I moved in 2019. Prior to that I had been having no issues. My beers at the new house weren’t right. I discovered my ph was way high and my water has plenty of chloride but is deficient in both calcium and sulfates. Calcium is important for the yeast and the chloride to sulfate balance is important. Mine is way out. Something like 84 chloride and 15 sulfate. Luckily, Gypsum provides both of the things I need.

So I now enter my grain bill in the spreadsheet, then grams of gypsum to get my calcium in range and balance chloride to sulfate, then acid malt to get my ph in range. The beers here are much better now. It usually ends up being about 3g Gypsum and 2-3 oz acid malt, depending on the grain bill.

These small changes also took my efficiency from about 70% to about 83%. Mash ph and water chemistry are important. I was fortunate to not have to mess with it at my old house but the water here is different.

 

[spittiz]

I was in a situation like this. I felt like all batches sucked. Malty beers just tasted a bit off and hoppy beers lacked hop flavor and all tasted same-ish. It mostly came down to water issues I think, probably a combination of wrong pH, chloramines and possibly overall bad combinations of minerals in the water. I too experimented a lot with extract brews which turned out much better than my all grain batches.

I got rid of the problems by buying a RO filter on e-bay, a pH meter, and dialing in the mash pH and water profiles. This took my beers from being very "meh" and homebrew-like to actually pretty good. Before this I was already using campden in the water, fermenting with temperature control, made sure to have proper pitch rates, and were quite careful about oxidation, followed tried and tested recipes etc. Not everyone has this problem but I'd say switching to RO water is the biggest improvement I made to my beer with my ****** tap water.