All in one Keggle/Fermenter?

[carrotmalt]

I've seen threads about using a Sanke keg to build a keggle, and threads talking about using them to ferment under pressure. If I can get my hands on a keg, and come up with a way to secure the lid back on post-boil, would it be feasible to use it as my boil pot as well as primary fermenter. I know it would tie up my boiling pot for a few weeks, but I'm not able to brew very often as it is, and the benefit of not having to worry about sanitizing another vessel, etc. makes it seem attractive.

I was thinking I could just brew, chill, aerate, pitch yeast, attach lid, and throw the sucker in the fridge with t-stat override. Depending on how I reattach the lid, maybe even try fermenting under pressure with spunding valve.

Sound feasible? If so, any ideas on lid re-attachment once it's been cut out?

 

[Lil' Sparky]

You just need something covering your top opening. A loose fitting lid will work fine. It doesn't need to be airtight. No reason why you can't/shouldn't do this.

 

[WortMonger]

The fitting(s) to make it pressure acceptable would make it cost way more than just using an unmodified keg for your fermenter, if you are wanting to do the pressure fermentation thing. Also, moving that much beer is heavy compared to moving it through line transfer exactly where you want it. I love kegs, and I love to pressure ferment, I just don't see the two being very dual purpose. I would hate to move my 12 gallons by hand into my chest freezer. It is just too simple to pump (and aerate while doing so) into my unmodified Sanke that is already inside my chest freezer straight from my kettle. In my technique, my keg has to handle 30+ psi during carbonation phase. That is a lot to trust a boil kettle to fermenter connection to IMHO. I completely trust the keg "as is" as it will hold way more than that.

Don't give up, but I don't see what you have suggested as functional or inexpensive to make it work.

 

[carrotmalt]

The fitting(s) to make it pressure acceptable would make it cost way more than just using an unmodified keg for your fermenter, if you are wanting to do the pressure fermentation thing. Also, moving that much beer is heavy compared to moving it through line transfer exactly where you want it. I love kegs, and I love to pressure ferment, I just don't see the two being very dual purpose. I would hate to move my 12 gallons by hand into my chest freezer. It is just too simple to pump (and aerate while doing so) into my unmodified Sanke that is already inside my chest freezer straight from my kettle. In my technique, my keg has to handle 30+ psi during carbonation phase. That is a lot to trust a boil kettle to fermenter connection to IMHO. I completely trust the keg "as is" as it will hold way more than that.

Don't give up, but I don't see what you have suggested as functional or inexpensive to make it work.

As far as having to lift it, I've only done a handful of 5 gallon batches thus far (in my turkey fryer), so I didn't think about that as an issue. I suppose with a full size keggle, I'd have the option of brewing 10+ gallon batches, and you're probably right.

As far as the expense of the pressure acceptable fittings, I figured they'd be the same as if I used the keg strictly for a pressure fermenter since I would still use the same lid that I cut out... or are you talking about fittings to reconnect the lid to the keg (which is the magic piece I still haven't figured out)?

Also, I thought to get the benefits of fermenting under pressure, it only had to be a few psi. I've seen where you've mentioned upping that to get it to serving carbonization, but I figured I could force carb at that point in a corny. Am I off base here?

 

[shortyjacobs]

Why cut out the lid? Just pull the dip-tube/coupler bit, and you will have a hole in the top of your keggle to pour stuff into. When you are done boiling, reinstall the diptube/coupler thing. The only problem I see is cooling....which you could do with a CFC and a ball valve on the bottom of your keggle/fermenter.

Yeah, it's a small space for steam to escape from when boiling, but that's no different from these big copper boiling kettles:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7FfUJnQlBhE/RhQwmvwUuuI/AAAAAAAAAYc/ulTWCoqx2Dc/s320/Brad+in+Kettle.JPG

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I wonder if you could rig up some kind of fan or air pump as a draft system to remove the steam... sounds interesting.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Why cut out the lid? Just pull the dip-tube/coupler bit, and you will have a hole in the top of your keggle to pour stuff into. When you are done boiling, reinstall the diptube/coupler thing. The only problem I see is cooling....which you could do with a CFC and a ball valve on the bottom of your keggle/fermenter.

Yeah, it's a small space for steam to escape from when boiling, but that's no different from these big copper boiling kettles:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7FfUJnQlBhE/RhQwmvwUuuI/AAAAAAAAAYc/ulTWCoqx2Dc/s320/Brad+in+Kettle.JPG

Might be a real challenge working through that small hole to install a valve/dip tube, etc. I have a second keg that I use for a fermenter.

Keep us updated...

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Counter-flow-chiller (or plate chiller) and one of these:

That would be pretty awesome.

 

[shortyjacobs]

Counter-flow-chiller (or plate chiller) and one of these:

That would be pretty awesome.

Oh boy....pump out of the racking tube and back into the blow off tube! Only problem is HSA, but if you believe that's a myth, you'd get great aeration and chilling all in one!

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Well the wort flowing back into the kettle would already be chilled, so that would at least lessen the worry over HSA.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Leaving the trub and break material in the fermenter may be a concern.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

Nah, homebrewers pour their entire kettle into the fermenter all the time. Lonnie Mac, the pioneer of the Brutus 10 (and 20) ferments in his kettles, as one reliable reference point.

 

[WortMonger]

As far as having to lift it, I've only done a handful of 5 gallon batches thus far (in my turkey fryer), so I didn't think about that as an issue. I suppose with a full size keggle, I'd have the option of brewing 10+ gallon batches, and you're probably right.

5 gallons should be no concern, but I can promise that doubling that is a bastard to handle moving around.

As far as the expense of the pressure acceptable fittings, I figured they'd be the same as if I used the keg strictly for a pressure fermenter since I would still use the same lid that I cut out... or are you talking about fittings to reconnect the lid to the keg (which is the magic piece I still haven't figured out)?

I am talking about where you cut the keg and plan to reattach and "seal" it to accomplish pressure fermentation.

Also, I thought to get the benefits of fermenting under pressure, it only had to be a few psi. I've seen where you've mentioned upping that to get it to serving carbonization, but I figured I could force carb at that point in a corny. Am I off base here?

You are right, 5-10 psi is all that is needed to accomplish pressurized fermentation. That is still a lot of pressure for a "seal you are making" to hold safely. Also, if you are doing pressurized fermentation why not carbonate? Conditioning after carbonating takes time that can be minimized by doing it while you are maturing in a "secondary phase" within the primary vessel.

This is the only advantage I look for in my technique and do not even consider lower ester production, higher diacetyl production (then lowering), or the ability to have a higher temperature fermentation with no side effects. I don't do it for the benefits described from all the research, and ferment as I normally would only in a closed and pressurized keg (ex. no higher temperatures, etc). I do it so I can have an easy system that remains closed until it hits your glass. If you're force carbonating, why not do as Lil' Sparky pointed out and then save the money on equipment.

Boiling in an unmodified Sanke would be a bad Idea in my mind. The hole is too small and it would be difficult to not have a geyser of hot wort shooting up and out of the hole. Not to mention SMS and then DMS removal, see boiling with the lid on. Trub removal is a good concern as well.

As for the machined piece sold by Brewer's Hardware (good piece of equipment) for $79, it is not needed. That's almost two Sanke tap connections you could buy that do the exact same thing. Sure it is easier than removing a snap ring and opening a keg, but that isn't hard to do??? Seems to be more equipment that isn't necessary, only extra in my brew house. Just my $.02.

 

[WortMonger]

Nah, homebrewers pour their entire kettle into the fermenter all the time. Lonnie Mac, the pioneer of the Brutus 10 (and 20) ferments in his kettles, as one reliable reference point.

I agree that it is not that much of a concern, with the exception of a delicate lager. I would have no problem dumping everything in my fermenter for any ale I ever do. I still try to be as clean as possible, but I wouldn't sweat about it if I decided to.

 

[Sawdustguy]

If you are thinking of fermenting under pressure to decrease esters, wouldn't it be whole lot easier to simply choose the proper yeast and ferment at a lower temperature? For beers like a Heffewiesen you want more esters, therefore fermenting under pressure is not a good idea. It is not as simple as I heard that some brewers ferment under pressure. There are some reasons for it and as many against it. It depends on the style of brew.

 

[WortMonger]

I think I spoke about how I don't do it for the reasons you spoke you "heard" about. It shortens my carbonation maturation lag time and is easier to just come out of one vessel basically done. I have done it, and would recommend it to anyone. Unless you're doing a Belgian or a Hefeweizen where elevated ester profiles are wanted I would follow normal fermenting procedures (carboy cap or something on the keg), but even then "never trying it" I wouldn't know to tell you it "wouldn't" provide ester flavors for those specific yeast. I do know it makes an excellent APA, IPA, kolsch, pale, and others from actual experience with the process. I just like it and it has worked very well for me, so I can talk about it if someone is possibly interested is all.

 

[carrotmalt]

I'll probably just use a keg for fermenting under pressure like you've described and not cut the top out. I've just been brainstorming trying to think if there would be a reasonable way to use it for both boiling and fermenting. Still coming up short on what that might be, but if I dream something up I'll post it and see what you folks think.

 

[Bobby_M]

If my brewing area were fully temp controlled, I'd ferment in the kettle with no hesitation. Not having to carry wort down to my basement would be a welcomed change.

 

[WortMonger]

Sounds great, but remember you can always use the keg with a carboy cap on top (or just a big rubber "holed" stopper to ferment the same as a carboy to get your feet wet. Then, you can add your sanitized spear and seal it up a couple of points shy for the same effect of natural carbonation and to get the higher ester formation of some yeast strains. I personally am only discounting your efforts to build this all-in-one idea based on how hard it would be to seal the keg "other than with the regular opening." Don't give up on your idea though, like I also said I would have no problem dumping everything in my fermenter except when for a clean lager. So, there is some merit to your idea. Who knows, maybe your idea (with the sealing and holding pressure attachment fixed) mixed with no-chill method, mixed with the pressurized fermentation technique may turn out extraordinary beers. I'm gonna try the no-chill soon with my setup and see.

 

[Edcculus]

From a practical standpoint, I don't see why fermenting in the kettle would pose problems. From a logistical standpoint, I'd never do it. If you ferment in your kettle, how can you brew unless you have multiple kettles? No double brew days. No brewing 2 weekends in a row. I guess you could rack out of the kettle after a week, but that kind of defeats the purpose. You might be different, but I don't see this working with my schedule.

 

[carrotmalt]

From a practical standpoint, I don't see why fermenting in the kettle would pose problems. From a logistical standpoint, I'd never do it. If you ferment in your kettle, how can you brew unless you have multiple kettles? No double brew days. No brewing 2 weekends in a row. I guess you could rack out of the kettle after a week, but that kind of defeats the purpose. You might be different, but I don't see this working with my schedule.

Unfortunately I don't get to brew very often, so tying up my boiler wouldn't be bad for me, but I hear what you're saying. Pressure fermenting aside, does the idea of fermenting in my kettle with a loose fitting lid still hold true for my turkey fryer, or is there some issue with using aluminum longer term than for the boil? If it's not a problem, I may try this just to skip having to use my plastic pale. I'm afraid it may have been the cause of a previous infection.

 

[WortMonger]

I don't have the hang-ups most do with aluminum; however, I still don't like the idea of long contact time with the metal. Cans are lined for a reason, and that reason is beer is acidic and eats at the aluminum. Not so with stainless, so it isn't an issue. Aluminum is good for cooking/boiling, but that is as far as I would personally take it with beer (all Alzheimer's comments aside).

 

[Bobby_M]

I wish I could brew every weekend but it's more like once a month. I could boil, ferment in place for 3 weeks and rack to corny keg. Clean the kettle and it's ready for the following weekend's brew.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Ah, the merits of kettle fermenting. Kettle to keg, less work and nice brew.

 

[WortMonger]

I do know that Lonnie Mac does this too, with his Brutus Ten!!! He has a great video too.