All Grain v Extract (my experience)

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

So as I have stated on here before recently, I have done 4-5 extract kits and just finished my second all grain batch and I noticed a couple of things.

1. The smell of the beer during fermentation seems to be much stronger, the SWMBO seems to have noticed this also *face palm*

2. At least for me when I was doing Extract I could pretty much count on air lock movement around the 6-10 hour mark, now...the first beer started within one hour and the second beer is on day two and I haven't seen any action. (but it sure does smell like its going)

3. I have more appreciation for how easy extract brewing can be, and time saving. But, I could never get a nice golden color in any of my beers which I think I have already achieved which is exciting for me I enjoy an occasional light, crisp beer.

4. Overall, all grain is more in depth, fun, and really in my opinion takes two people for everything to go smoothly.

 

[kombat]

in my opinion takes two people for everything to go smoothly.

I don't necessarily agree with that, I've brewed over 100 batches and only had a "helper" for 3-4 of those, and those helpers didn't really know much about what was required. The vast majority of my brewing has been solitary.

I think it can go very smoothly if you know your process, and you've properly prepared. For example, I weigh out my grains and hops the day before brewing, sealing the hops in Foodsaver pouches and labeling them with their addition times. I also set up all of my equipment, so on brew day, everything is already where it needs to be (i.e., HLT is already on the burner, burner is connected to the propane tank, mash tun is in place below the HLT, mill is sitting over an empty bucket and has the drill already attached, etc.).

Such preparation allows me to complete a 5 gallon all-grain brew day in between 4-5 hours, including cleanup and hop stand.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

I don't necessarily agree with that, I've brewed over 100 batches and only had a "helper" for 3-4 of those, and those helpers didn't really know much about what was required. The vast majority of my brewing has been solitary.

I think it can go very smoothly if you know your process, and you've properly prepared. For example, I weigh out my grains and hops the day before brewing, sealing the hops in Foodsaver pouches and labeling them with their addition times. I also set up all of my equipment, so on brew day, everything is already where it needs to be (i.e., HLT is already on the burner, burner is connected to the propane tank, mash tun is in place below the HLT, mill is sitting over an empty bucket and has the drill already attached, etc.).

Such preparation allows me to complete a 5 gallon all-grain brew day in between 4-5 hours, including cleanup and hop stand.

This is a hobby I started with my brother and I really think having that extra hand helps greatly. We do try to stay organized as possible and I am not sayings its impossible to do alone its just easier with two. Our process takes about 4 hours right now including clean up as well, plus the company is also nice to have.

 

[Leezer]

Interesting to read your thoughts on this. I have done 5-6 extract kits so far and am planning to do my first all-grain (biab) in a couple weeks. I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes.

 

[gbx]

2. At least for me when I was doing Extract I could pretty much count on air lock movement around the 6-10 hour mark, now...the first beer started within one hour and the second beer is on day two and I haven't seen any action. (but it sure does smell like its going)

Just switching the method you dissolve sugars into your wort shouldn't affect this. This is a function of your yeast pitch size, aeration, pitching temp and yeast health. It has nothing to do with extract vs all grain. Did you change from dry to liquid when you switched to all grain? Are you chilling more and aerating less?

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

Just switching the method you dissolve sugars into your wort shouldn't affect this. This is a function of your yeast pitch size, aeration, pitching temp and yeast health. It has nothing to do with extract vs all grain. Did you change from dry to liquid when you switched to all grain? Are you chilling more and aerating less?

No, I have not changed the yeast I typically use US-05 and pitch it dry, I have always done that and never had an issue (which I know can be controversial). My method for cooling did change however when I got the all grain set up I went ahead and got a plate chiller which cools the wort very rapidly I get a serious cold break. Aireation process is the same, I typically transfer the wort into my primary bucket and pour it in to the secondary and back into my primary rigorously to create the air.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

Interesting to read your thoughts on this. I have done 5-6 extract kits so far and am planning to do my first all-grain (biab) in a couple weeks. I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes.

You will never look back, it really takes the hobby to a new level. I have become completely addicted but you might have a lot more questions with your first run. Watch plenty of videos on YouTube and read everything you can. I know when I first heard about my "mash thickness" and efficiency I looked like a deer in the headlights. Also you will have to learn your own system to really see how much boil off you have and how to keep a good temp control for mashing, which can be tricky at times if you are using a steel pot like I am and not an old cooler.

 

[Jim311]

I honestly think all grain brewing is a lot easier than I'd initially thought. Making extract beers was like making a batch of koolaid or something to me. But it was good to get those fundamentals and understand how the hop schedules and fermentation and sanitation were supposed to work. Now that I've got a few AG brews under my belt I can really step it up and go nuts.

 

[Diver111]

I agree, I have stepped up to AG from my first extract and later partial grain brews to all grain. I have noticed that the flavor of my beer has improved. My beer before all grain was very good but now its great! This may also be due in part to the fact that I am oxygenating my wort and I am also making a starter the day before brew day. I am also kegging and force carbonating in my new keezer that I built.

 

[specharka]

I honestly think all grain brewing is a lot easier than I'd initially thought. Making extract beers was like making a batch of koolaid or something to me. But it was good to get those fundamentals and understand how the hop schedules and fermentation and sanitation were supposed to work. Now that I've got a few AG brews under my belt I can really step it up and go nuts.

I call them beer cake mixes. The quality of the product is driven entirely by the extract manufacturer, not the homebrewer, and I have had far worse experiences doing extract brewing than all grain.

All grain brewing affords me more control over the process and product than extract brewing ever could. Might take more time, effort, and money to accomplish, but I didn't get in this hobby to save on any of those regards. I'm constantly looking for ways to refine and expand my brewing methods to learn more about how they affect my product. Moreover, all grain brewing is actually fun. The challenge and results are worth the extra effort.

 

[joshesmusica]

So as I have stated on here before recently, I have done 4-5 extract kits and just finished my second all grain batch and I noticed a couple of things.

1. The smell of the beer during fermentation seems to be much stronger, the SWMBO seems to have noticed this also *face palm*

2. At least for me when I was doing Extract I could pretty much count on air lock movement around the 6-10 hour mark, now...the first beer started within one hour and the second beer is on day two and I haven't seen any action. (but it sure does smell like its going)

3. I have more appreciation for how easy extract brewing can be, and time saving. But, I could never get a nice golden color in any of my beers which I think I have already achieved which is exciting for me I enjoy an occasional light, crisp beer.

4. Overall, all grain is more in depth, fun, and really in my opinion takes two people for everything to go smoothly.

1. This doesn't make any sense. Fermentation smell being stronger shouldn't necessarily have to do with the ingredients. Unless you were brewing some low OG, light, almost flavorless beers, and started going high abv more malt or hop extreme beers. Most of the smells from fermentation would be coming from the yeast.

2. Same as number 1, basically. This has nothing to do with your ingredients, and everything to do with the yeast. Not to mention that if you're using buckets, you could've not gotten a very good seal on one batch, and then really pounded it down on the next.

Saying you've "never" had a problem after only 6-7 brews is quite an extreme thing to say. I mean no disrespect, but I doubt you're brewing beers that would score well in competitions. Almost nobody could as a new brewer. So although you don't detect any major problems with dry pitching the yeast, it's not best practice, and won't likely lend you the best beer possible in the end. Honestly, the work to rehydrate is so simple, I don't know why anybody would skip it only to lose up to 50% of their yeast.

3. Yeah it is one of the well known problems with extract. But it speaks more to the type of extract you're using than anything. I've gotten a nice golden color, but I had to use pilsner extract to get that.

4. I agree it's a lot more fun, but only if you enjoy the process. Some people are lame and just want quick, cheap beer. I'm like you and enjoy the entire process. Though I'm with kombat, I usually brew solo. I would imagine if my brew partner were completely competent, it would make it easier. But I'm always improving my processes, while he's always been learning from me. So it's actually added work when he's around. The only real benefit is that it's less stress on my back!

 

[gbx]

Saying you've "never" had a problem after only 6-7 brews is quite an extreme thing to say. I mean no disrespect, but I doubt you're brewing beers that would score well in competitions. Almost nobody could as a new brewer. So although you don't detect any major problems with dry pitching the yeast, it's not best practice, and won't likely lend you the best beer possible in the end. Honestly, the work to rehydrate is so simple, I don't know why anybody would skip it only to lose up to 50% of their yeast.

This has been discussed and tested multiple times and it really isn't the end of the world to sprinkle vs rehydrate (BBR and Brulosophy have both done experiments) If you are a new brewer who hasn't mastered sanitation yet, it is probably better just to sprinkle as its one less step where contamination could occur. US-05 is very forgiving if you give it enough time. Most problems I've tasted from US-05 have come from rushing it, not leaving it in the primary long enough to clean up and not giving the bottles enough time to drop clear.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

1. This doesn't make any sense. Fermentation smell being stronger shouldn't necessarily have to do with the ingredients. Unless you were brewing some low OG, light, almost flavorless beers, and started going high abv more malt or hop extreme beers. Most of the smells from fermentation would be coming from the yeast.

2. Same as number 1, basically. This has nothing to do with your ingredients, and everything to do with the yeast. Not to mention that if you're using buckets, you could've not gotten a very good seal on one batch, and then really pounded it down on the next.

Saying you've "never" had a problem after only 6-7 brews is quite an extreme thing to say. I mean no disrespect, but I doubt you're brewing beers that would score well in competitions. Almost nobody could as a new brewer. So although you don't detect any major problems with dry pitching the yeast, it's not best practice, and won't likely lend you the best beer possible in the end. Honestly, the work to rehydrate is so simple, I don't know why anybody would skip it only to lose up to 50% of their yeast.

3. Yeah it is one of the well known problems with extract. But it speaks more to the type of extract you're using than anything. I've gotten a nice golden color, but I had to use pilsner extract to get that.

4. I agree it's a lot more fun, but only if you enjoy the process. Some people are lame and just want quick, cheap beer. I'm like you and enjoy the entire process. Though I'm with kombat, I usually brew solo. I would imagine if my brew partner were completely competent, it would make it easier. But I'm always improving my processes, while he's always been learning from me. So it's actually added work when he's around. The only real benefit is that it's less stress on my back!

I can't explain why the smell seems stronger, it just is in my experience. I have one batch in a carboy and one batch in a bucket, good news they are both bubbling away now that second just needed more time I suppose, again not what I am use to just my experience. With that being said I am in not in any way saying I make competition beers or that my process should be the model for everyone out there, its just what works well for me so far. I already know ways I want to improve on from reading this forum, the biggest thing I want to do is get something to control my fermentation temps more accurately.

Any way, I appreciate your feedback and you reading my post but this is simply my experience as a new brewer who just wanted to share.

 

[GHBWNY]

I brewed 8 extract kits before going to AG. I guess the main difference I noticed is that an extract beer --- and it's the only way I can put it --- has an "extract" taste. Maybe it's a little heavier, not as crisp, more concentrated, etc., but IMO, it's definitely different and distinguishable from (maybe less "genuine" than?) the AG brews I have made.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

I brewed 8 extract kits before going to AG. I guess the main difference I noticed is that an extract beer --- and it's the only way I can put it --- has an "extract" taste. Maybe it's a little heavier, not as crisp, more concentrated, etc., but IMO, it's definitely different and distinguishable from (maybe less "genuine" than?) the AG brews I have made.

I would have to say, I can agree that Extract beers I have brewed did not come out crisp. Thats why with my first all grain I did a cream ale to start things off to see if I can get the crisp light colored beer. This is a good addition of a difference for sure.

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

1.

Saying you've "never" had a problem after only 6-7 brews is quite an extreme thing to say. I mean no disrespect, but I doubt you're brewing beers that would score well in competitions. Almost nobody could as a new brewer. So although you don't detect any major problems with dry pitching the yeast, it's not best practice, and won't likely lend you the best beer possible in the end. Honestly, the work to rehydrate is so simple, I don't know why anybody would skip it only to lose up to 50% of their yeast.

I also would like to add to this that the manufacture of this yeast says to sprinkle it on dry...

http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFA_US05.pdf

" Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps."

 

[Sammy86]

Saying you've "never" had a problem after only 6-7 brews is quite an extreme thing to say. I mean no disrespect, but I doubt you're brewing beers that would score well in competitions.

i don't think this is a fair statement to make in the least. There have been plenty of Brewers on here and I'm sure in the world whose first beers have scored well in competitions.

Secondly, who gives a flying hoot how a beer scores? If the OP is brewing beer that he enjoys then that's all that matters. I've never sent one of my beers into a competition...and frankly I have no interest in doing so. As long as I myself enjoy the beer I brew and my family and friends enjoy it I could really care less what a BJCP judge scores my beer.

 

[joshesmusica]

I also would like to add to this that the manufacture of this yeast says to sprinkle it on dry...

http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFA_US05.pdf

" Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps."

Well yeah, sure, it says that... but only after you skip this part:

"Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 27°
c
± 3°C (80°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes.
Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel. "

 

[joshesmusica]

i don't think this is a fair statement to make in the least. There have been plenty of Brewers on here and I'm sure in the world whose first beers have scored well in competitions.

Secondly, who gives a flying hoot how a beer scores? If the OP is brewing beer that he enjoys then that's all that matters. I've never sent one of my beers into a competition...and frankly I have no interest in doing so. As long as I myself enjoy the beer I brew and my family and friends enjoy it I could really care less what a BJCP judge scores my beer.

Because how a beer scores is a pretty good metric of how good a brewer is. Of course, he needs to enjoy his own beers. But to come on here and share the anecdotal evidence of that he's never attempted to rehydrate and never had a problem is more than likely not true. Especially because he admitted to not having any fermentation control, and is probably under-pitching, and under-aerating. The people who can do well in competitions while pitching dry, more than likely have all of the other fermentation parameters under control. This guy doesn't.

The reason I find it important to not propagate an anecdotal "truth" is that other new brewers might stumble upon this type of thread, and read that, and think "oh it's always worked for him. now i'm gonna save myself very little effort on brew day, and skip that process." Then he or she will be on here later asking for help on how to make better beer.

 

[douglasbarbin]

There have been plenty of Brewers on here and I'm sure in the world whose first beers have scored well in competitions.

I think that's probably hyperbole. There have been very few brewers who have done that, and it is definitely the exception and not the rule. If a brewer's first beer scores well in competition, I would suspect that it is more a function of lenient judging and/or a lack of well-made beers to compete against. Again, it's not impossible, but to imply that it happens all the time is ridiculous.

Secondly, who gives a flying hoot how a beer scores?

Well, lots of people. For starters, it's really the only metric we have to determine how well a beer fits a predefined style. It is also a great way to get feedback from people who have a lot of experience tasting many different styles of beer. It may not be important to you, but it is important to many others. Feedback from judging is exactly what some people need to make the leap from making "good" beer to making "great" beer.

If the OP is brewing beer that he enjoys then that's all that matters. I've never sent one of my beers into a competition...and frankly I have no interest in doing so. As long as I myself enjoy the beer I brew and my family and friends enjoy it I could really care less what a BJCP judge scores my beer.

That is definitely what's most important, IMO. Brew beer that you and your family/friends like.

Honestly, the work to rehydrate is so simple, I don't know why anybody would skip it only to lose up to 50% of their yeast.

For some people, especially new brewers, it could be another potential chance of infection. Considering that a pack of dry yeast costs like $3, it could make sense to just pitch another pack rather than risking an infection. Personally, I rarely use dry yeast, but when I do, I usually rehydrate. If I don't rehydrate, it isn't the end of the world, and the beer turns out fine. Just pitch enough healthy yeast, oxygenate, and you will be fine either way.

 

[joshesmusica]

This has been discussed and tested multiple times and it really isn't the end of the world to sprinkle vs rehydrate (BBR and Brulosophy have both done experiments) If you are a new brewer who hasn't mastered sanitation yet, it is probably better just to sprinkle as its one less step where contamination could occur. US-05 is very forgiving if you give it enough time. Most problems I've tasted from US-05 have come from rushing it, not leaving it in the primary long enough to clean up and not giving the bottles enough time to drop clear.

Yeah, but in those experiments, you're talking about guys that have every single aspect of the brewing process down pat. Especially as brulosopher has shown on many occasions, if you are a very skilled brewer (remember shawn specifically is a guy who's nearly winning NHC competitions for styles that are very difficult to master. he's an incredibly skilled brewer, not some guy who's only got 6 brews under his belt), and only change up one aspect, then the yeast will be pretty forgiving. One thing these experiments haven't done yet is show what happens when you start compounding mistakes. A lot of the people who are skipping the rehydration are also skimping on other parts of brewing. Like the OP who doesn't have ferment temp control.

 

[douglasbarbin]

The reason I find it important to not propagate an anecdotal "truth" is that other new brewers might stumble upon this type of thread, and read that, and think "oh it's always worked for him. now i'm gonna save myself very little effort on brew day, and skip that process." Then he or she will be on here later asking for help on how to make better beer.

That's a good point. People like Brulosopher typically have their process so dialed-in that changing a single variable (like whether or not to rehydrate) doesn't matter and the beer turns out well regardless. A new brewer could be one mistake away from creating undrinkable beer, so it really isn't a valid comparison.

 

[Skep18]

3. I have more appreciation for how easy extract brewing can be, and time saving. But, I could never get a nice golden color in any of my beers which I think I have already achieved which is exciting for me I enjoy an occasional light, crisp beer.

This for sure. For these reasons I bounce back and forth between AG and extract depending on my time and desire as well as what's on sale. lol.

 

[gbx]

Yeah, but in those experiments, you're talking about guys that have every single aspect of the brewing process down pat. Especially as brulosopher has shown on many occasions, if you are a very skilled brewer (remember shawn specifically is a guy who's nearly winning NHC competitions for styles that are very difficult to master. he's an incredibly skilled brewer, not some guy who's only got 6 brews under his belt), and only change up one aspect, then the yeast will be pretty forgiving. One thing these experiments haven't done yet is show what happens when you start compounding mistakes. A lot of the people who are skipping the rehydration are also skimping on other parts of brewing. Like the OP who doesn't have ferment temp control.

A new brewer who is that close to disaster will probably **** up the rehydration and contaminate the batch or shock it when bringing it down to pitch temp and kill off as many yeast cells as they attempted to save by rehydrating. Be aware of pitch rates and assume some will die by sprinkling. If you are 6 batches into homebrewing and brewing something reasonable for 1 pack (ie 1.050, 5gal), sprinkle away worry about other more important things (ie. sanitation and avoiding oxidation) or just RDWHAHB. US-05 is great because its cheap and easy and just works. Maybe it is slightly better if rehydrated but if you are going through the effort why not go one better and make a starter with wy1056 or wlp001? (superior to rehydrated US-05)

 

[gbx]

Here is the BBR/BYO yeast rehydration experiment from 2011.

"Based on the described data it is recommended not to hydrate dry yeast since this may cause risks when not carried out in the proper way. Even when hydrating the yeast one might wonder what the benefit will be over the extra effort and risk."

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/1/a/e/1ae...46160355&hwt=e49ddf75bc5976ece2452ea3c34cb56c

 

[DerbyshireNick]

As always there is the big variable of people standards too to consider.

For example I am not happy unless my beers are as good or better then anything else Ive ever sampled commercial or otherwise. Many people, and I have seen this many times, label a beer as great as long as it somewhat resembles the taste of beer. They can be loving a beer completely oblivious to the fact that it tastes very much like dodgy 1980's homebrew.

 

[kombat]

US-05 is great because its cheap and easy and just works. Maybe it is slightly better if rehydrated

There's no "maybe." Folks who know (Chris White of White Labs, and Jamil Zainasheff) have researched it exhaustively and have discovered that sprinkling dry reduces cell viability by up to 50%.

If you understand that and simply pitch twice as much yeast to compensate, then no problem. But the vast majority of the time this issue comes up, people are holding the quantity of yeast constant (one pack) and only arguing between pitching it dry or rehydrating it.

but if you are going through the effort why not go one better and make a starter with wy1056 or wlp001? (superior to rehydrated US-05)

Rehydrated US-05 is WY1056 and WLP001. Neither is inferior/superior to the other - they're identical. They're all based on the same Chico strain. US-05 is simply dehydrated California Ale yeast. Rehydrating it simply returns it back to the same form as WY1056 and WLP001.

 

[ericbw]

i don't think this is a fair statement to make in the least. There have been plenty of Brewers on here and I'm sure in the world whose first beers have scored well in competitions.

Secondly, who gives a flying hoot how a beer scores? If the OP is brewing beer that he enjoys then that's all that matters. I've never sent one of my beers into a competition...and frankly I have no interest in doing so. As long as I myself enjoy the beer I brew and my family and friends enjoy it I could really care less what a BJCP judge scores my beer.

What first time brewer sends a beer to a competition?

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

I want to make good beers just like the next guy I am not sure why that is in such question just because I don't follow the same methods you do. If that was the case then there wouldn't be any variety or new beers out there. I understand I don't have my process down pact...I said that...I also said I want a few more things such a temp control to improve my beers...that wasn't so anyone can take a cheap shot at me for not wanting a quality beer...that's simply b/c I was being honest and haven't gotten around to affording more beer equipment it can get pricey. I digress...

 

[ericbw]

I brewed 8 extract kits before going to AG. I guess the main difference I noticed is that an extract beer --- and it's the only way I can put it --- has an "extract" taste. Maybe it's a little heavier, not as crisp, more concentrated, etc., but IMO, it's definitely different and distinguishable from (maybe less "genuine" than?) the AG brews I have made.

The difference is also dependent on technique. If you add your extract at the beginning of the boil (as per directions usually), it will get darker because it was already boiled. If you add some at the beginning and the rest at the end, you will get less cooking - less extract taste.

The kind of extract makes a difference. If it's light extract with carapils in it, it will definitely be heavier (and sweeter) than all base grain. If you add steeping grains that don't account for the amount of body and sweetness already built into the extract, you end up with more body than you would from an all grain batch where you accounted for it.

And you can't discount your improvement as a brewer. Your first batch (extract) wasn't as good as your 20th batch (grain). That could be that you improved. If I make an extract batch now (which is occasionally), it is better than my early grain batches.

I think when people get the idea that extract is Kool-Aid, then they think that using extract is not really making beer ("less genuine"). The only genuine beer I know is MGD, which is not a good thing.

If you didn't grow, malt, roast, and caramelize the grain yourself, you're just taking shortcuts anyway.