All Grain - Sweet Oatmeal Stout ideas

[Drosophil]

I'm thinking about brewing a hybrid oatmeal/sweet stout, but due to the fact that there's a lot of stuff I can't get in my neck of the woods, there are a few restrictions: Weyermann malt only, no lactose (so expensive it's not even funny), and preferably dry yeast (I can get Wyeast, but the price is ridiculous).

This is my rough recipe so far (sorry about the weird quantities, I converted from metric):

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: SafAle S-04
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.28
Original Gravity: 1.060
Final Gravity: 1.016
IBU: 28.6
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 34
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 21 at 68
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): none

8 lbs 13.1 oz Pale Malt (3.0 SRM), Grain 72.7 %
1 lb 1.6 oz Caramunich III (56.0 SRM) Grain 9.1 %
1 lb 1.6 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 9.1
8.8 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 4.5 %
8.8 oz Roasted Barley (300 SRM) Grain 4.5

1.76 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 28.6 IBU

1 Pkg SafAle English Ale (S-04)

Mashing at 156 for 90 minutes.

Here's where I need a bit of input:
Would Caramunich III be a reasonable replacement for Crystal 60?
Where should the chocolate/roasted barley ratio be? I've never brewed stout before, but I'm aiming for a dark chocolate flavour.
Any way of bumping up the SRM without making the roasted flavours too powerful? A late mash addition maybe?
Should I add some flaked barley? Would it help head retention?
Would you choose EKG or Fuggles? Or should I just forget about noble hops altogether and just throw in some high alpha hops?
S-04 or S-05? With the grain bill and mashing temperature I don't think I need low attenuation. Do I need two packages or will one do?

Any advice is welcome and appreciated

 

[green_giant43]

I'm thinking about brewing a hybrid oatmeal/sweet stout, but due to the fact that there's a lot of stuff I can't get in my neck of the woods, there are a few restrictions: Weyermann malt only, no lactose (so expensive it's not even funny), and preferably dry yeast (I can get Wyeast, but the price is ridiculous).

This is my rough recipe so far (sorry about the weird quantities, I converted from metric):

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: SafAle S-04
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.28
Original Gravity: 1.060
Final Gravity: 1.016
IBU: 28.6
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 34
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 21 at 68
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): none

8 lbs 13.1 oz Pale Malt (3.0 SRM), Grain 72.7 %
1 lb 1.6 oz Caramunich III (56.0 SRM) Grain 9.1 %
1 lb 1.6 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 9.1
8.8 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 4.5 %
8.8 oz Roasted Barley (300 SRM) Grain 4.5

1.76 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 28.6 IBU

1 Pkg SafAle English Ale (S-04)

Mashing at 156 for 90 minutes.

Here's where I need a bit of input:
Would Caramunich III be a reasonable replacement for Crystal 60?
Where should the chocolate/roasted barley ratio be? I've never brewed stout before, but I'm aiming for a dark chocolate flavour.
Any way of bumping up the SRM without making the roasted flavours too powerful? A late mash addition maybe?
Should I add some flaked barley? Would it help head retention?
Would you choose EKG or Fuggles? Or should I just forget about noble hops altogether and just throw in some high alpha hops?
S-04 or S-05? With the grain bill and mashing temperature I don't think I need low attenuation. Do I need two packages or will one do?

Any advice is welcome and appreciated

Quoted so you can see this.
I'm doing much the same today (a holiday stout basically) so my recipe is similar. We'll see how it goes right?

I think your SRM should be fine with those amounts. I'm using far more base malt (80% grist in a 8% beer) and have roughly higher amounts of chocolate and flaked barley. I actually have 6.4% for both in mind and it is right in the middle of the range for the style (30 SRM estimated.)
I'm using flaked barley for head retention (around 6.4%).
I went with two packets of 04 just because they were out of WLP002. Low attenuation is being combined with a high mash in mine (155) just for that sweetness. I want to see how sweet it actually comes out as I've got some cinnamon, etc. to bitter it a little more. For your ABV, you're right on the cusp just by eyeballing so I would go with 2. (Mine is 8% and I'm going with 2.)
EKG or Fuggles are fine. I tried to get either but, once again, my LHBS was out so I went with Challenger for the bittering (using Willamette for aroma).

Now to warn you as this is what I have researched early this morning before brewing:
1) The roasted and chocolate malts have a tendency to lower the pH a LOT which is not what you want in a sweet stout. I might go for steeping these separately at 155 with 2 qts water/1# grain ratio in the brew kettle. Then I'll just sparge out my mash into that and be good to go. All the flavors should be extracted just fine (my milling also got them down to coffee grain type grind so it's even easier.) Either that or I'm throwing them in the mash at 30 mins in to get that color really into the beer.

2) The flaked oats can lead to a stuck sparge. 9.1% is getting up there so just take the sparge slow to avoid a stuck sparge.

Edit- 3) Your BU:GU ratio is a bit low. See here- http://www.madalchemist.com/chart_bitterness_ratio.html
Not necessarily bad but something to think about.

 

[Drosophil]

I've rechecked and the Weyermann Roasted Barley is rated between 1100 and 1300 EBC, so roughly a whooping 550-650 SRM. Not worried about the color, but it could be a bit too roasty, so I might have to tone it down by an ounce or so. And Caramunich I is the only caramel malt I can get, so I'll go with that.

Good point about the pH, I'm not sure about mashing for 30 minutes anymore after reading this http://homebrewmanual.com/oatmeal-stout-recipe/. It turns out that it isn't enough to get the color and flavor out, so steeping them separately at 2 qts/lb sounds like a much better idea.

I have no worries about a stuck sparge, I'm doing BIAB + dunk sparging. I'll just have to stir like crazy while it drains.

I was just thinking about the BU/GU ratio and it did seem a bit on the low end. BYO had between 0.4 and 0.6 for sweet stout and 0.6 and 0.8 for oatmeal in an article about stout. Anyway, nothing an extra 10 grams of hops can't solve.

I think I can only brew it in about a week or so, still have a hefeweizen in the fermenter. If you're brewing it today, let me know how it turned out. BTW, care to share the recipe? You've just made me curious about this holiday stout.

 

[Drosophil]

I rechecked and it turns out that the Weyermann Roasted Barley is rated between 1100 and 1300 EBC. The color isn't a problem, but it could mean it's very roasty, so I might have to tone it down by an ounce or so.

Good point about the pH. I'm not so sure about the 30 minute mash after reading this http://homebrewmanual.com/oatmeal-stout-recipe/. Apparently it's not enough to get the color and the flavors out, so the 2 qts/lb steeping sounds like a much better idea.

I'm not worried about stuck sparges, I do BIAB + dunk sparging, I'll just have to stir like crazy while it drains.

I was just thinking about the BU:GU ratio, and it seems to be a bit on the low end. BYO had an article about stout styles and they listed 0.4-0.6 for sweet stout and 0.6-0.8 for oatmeal. Anyway, nothing half an ounce of extra hops can't solve.

I'll only be able to brew it in about 10 days, still have a hefeweizen in the fermenter. If you're making it today, let me know how it turned out. BTW, care to share the recipe? You got me curious about this holiday stout.

 

[Drosophil]

Sorry about the double-ish post, I forgot it had to be moderated.

 

[green_giant43]

I rechecked and it turns out that the Weyermann Roasted Barley is rated between 1100 and 1300 EBC. The color isn't a problem, but it could mean it's very roasty, so I might have to tone it down by an ounce or so.

Good point about the pH. I'm not so sure about the 30 minute mash after reading this http://homebrewmanual.com/oatmeal-stout-recipe/. Apparently it's not enough to get the color and the flavors out, so the 2 qts/lb steeping sounds like a much better idea.

I'm not worried about stuck sparges, I do BIAB + dunk sparging, I'll just have to stir like crazy while it drains.

I was just thinking about the BU:GU ratio, and it seems to be a bit on the low end. BYO had an article about stout styles and they listed 0.4-0.6 for sweet stout and 0.6-0.8 for oatmeal. Anyway, nothing half an ounce of extra hops can't solve.

I'll only be able to brew it in about 10 days, still have a hefeweizen in the fermenter. If you're making it today, let me know how it turned out. BTW, care to share the recipe? You got me curious about this holiday stout.

Mine went well. I ended up steeping the chocolate malt separately at around 2qts/1#. I'd recommend a small kitchen pot for that just so you get all the grains in it (the normal stockpot would not have worked I don't think.)
I feel like my recipe was missing some other kind of flavor malt (just oats, barley, chocolate, and MO) but it might be alright.

I would post it but I don't know that Beersmith has an easy option to just grab the ingredients. Anyway


11# MO
1# 3.2oz Chocolate
14.4 oz. flaked oats
14.4 oz. flaked barley
Challenger hops (sub because they didn't have EKG or Fuggles) 1oz at 60 mins
Willamette hops- 2 oz. at 20 mins
15 min Irish moss
12 mins 1 oz. ginger
10 mins- 2 sticks cinnamon, .75 oz. sweet orange peel
Safale 04
Vanilla in secondary (maybe two beans) for a week

ABV should be around 6% with any luck (gotta do the math again and my OG was lower than I expected based off of Beersmith)
BU:GU is .598 (a little high as when I designed it I transposed the numbers for Challenger- 8.9 instead of 9.8 so I compensated with a whole oz. instead of .9)
Mash was around 156 (a little high and somehow my cooler didn't drop ANY heat the whole mash- towels around the top really do work)
I'm just hoping it attenuates enough now as I thought my mash tun would drop 2 degrees over the 75 min mash.

 

[Drosophil]

Hey, that sounds like really yummy beer, even without any crystal malt. I was thinking about "upgrading" mine into a chocolate stout, so I'll add some cocoa.

Same thing happens to me, I have my electric pot insulated in a roll mat, with a pillow over the lid and the thermostat rarely kicks in. I'll do the same with the steeping pot.

Thanks for the info and let me know how it turns out. I'll see what happens with mine when I can start brewing.

 

[masonsjax]

Your location isn't filled on your profile so im curious: Where is your neck of the woods that ingredients are both too expensive and not available via shipping?

 

[Drosophil]

Romania, Eastern Europe. There's only one supplier so they can charge pretty much whatever they want. I could order from Germany or Belgium maybe even the UK, where it's much cheaper, but it's only worth it if you buy huge bulk quantities to make up for the shipping costs.

 

[masonsjax]

Bummer. Good for you going ahead and brewing anyway!

Your initial recipe looks good, but I'd cut the roasted barley in half. Regarding the pH, I'd recommend using software like brunwater to calculate what you need to add to your water to get the right pH and flavor profile you're looking for. Steeping dark grains separately can cut down or eliminate the amount of salt/bicarbonate you need. You could probably tweak the amount of roast added directly to the mash so as to eliminate any buffer or acid for mash pH balance.

 

[Drosophil]

Thanks! I'm doing my best, it's just too rewarding.

I'm definitely cutting it down, just wasn't sure by how much. About the pH, if I add bicarbonate to get the right water chemistry (I don't know the exact numbers, but I know the local water is very low on minerals), would separate steeping still be necessary?

 

[masonsjax]

You can get it in line without a separate steep. Software should be able to help you get very close.