All Grain RIMS/HERMS Setup *New In Box*?

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

You can make the same quality of beer with a large pot, a turkey fryer and a modified cooler for a fraction of the cost. My suggestion would be to go this route first to see if AG batches are really what you're into before you sink a couple grand into a shiny system.

I mean no disrespect but having a shiny expensive system isn't going to make your beer taste that much better.

It may or may not taste better. My beers get definably better as my system improves and the brew days are infinitely more enjoyable.

I think if you want to avoid DIY, the Synergy system is nice. It is basic and can be upgraded as you see fit, wen you see fit.

If you are like me and know you like brewing, buying a cooler and any parts you don't see yourself wanting later is just a waste of money. Trust me, I wasted probably $1000+ over the first 3 years of my brewing career buying mini upgrades that were washed out of the system within a few brews. Then I planned out my rig and now I do not waste a single cent. A cooler here and a cheap pot there adds up incredibly quick.

 

[Sawdustguy]

It may or may not taste better. My beers get definably better as my system improves and the brew days are infinitely more enjoyable.

I think if you want to avoid DIY, the Synergy system is nice. It is basic and can be upgraded as you see fit, wen you see fit.

If you are like me and know you like brewing, buying a cooler and any parts you don't see yourself wanting later is just a waste of money. Trust me, I wasted probably $1000+ over the first 3 years of my brewing career buying mini upgrades that were washed out of the system within a few brews. Then I planned out my rig and now I do not waste a single cent. A cooler here and a cheap pot there adds up incredibly quick.

+1

I couldn't agree more. Starting small may not always be the most economical way. I am not suggesting that everyone should run out and spent mega bucks, but if you have any idea you could get hooked in this hobby and want your brewery to evolve, it could be less expensive to start off with something that would be reuseable as the brewery evolves.

 

[Benthic]

<snip>
If you are like me and know you like brewing, buying a cooler and any parts you don't see yourself wanting later is just a waste of money. Trust me, I wasted probably $1000+ over the first 3 years of my brewing career buying mini upgrades that were washed out of the system within a few brews. Then I planned out my rig and now I do not waste a single cent. A cooler here and a cheap pot there adds up incredibly quick.

This is very wise advice. It hasn't applied to me much where brewing is concerned, but I've seen it over and over again in my other hobby (technical scuba). If there is an item (items?) that you know you want/need you're better off to wait and save up for it rather than buying a less expensive alternative. Eventually you'll get what you want anyway, so why not do it right the first time and buy things only once?

Brian

 

[Bobby_M]

Let's not forget that brewing equipment has a pretty good resale value within our tight community. I made at least 20 batches on my first converted cooler and sold it to a fellow brewer for about half price. A 3-stainless vessel system isn't for everyone. Half the time I brew on my system, I think of how easy it was to just dump a bucket of strike water into the cooler and walk away for an hour.

The key thing here is that without having brewed all grain yet, it's very difficult to know what you want. I wouldn't even suggest taking our advice on what you'll want because it's such a personal thing.

That' being said, if you want an upgradable system that gets you brewing sooner than later, the Synergy system looks about right. If the price tag is a little steep, I will say that you can contract out the stand for probably $300, the kegs will run you about $400 fitted and welded if you grey-market liberate them. IOW, if you do some of the leg work, the synergy system can be built for about $800 total.

 

[BillyVegas]

It may or may not taste better. My beers get definably better as my system improves and the brew days are infinitely more enjoyable.

I think if you want to avoid DIY, the Synergy system is nice. It is basic and can be upgraded as you see fit, wen you see fit.

If you are like me and know you like brewing, buying a cooler and any parts you don't see yourself wanting later is just a waste of money. Trust me, I wasted probably $1000+ over the first 3 years of my brewing career buying mini upgrades that were washed out of the system within a few brews. Then I planned out my rig and now I do not waste a single cent. A cooler here and a cheap pot there adds up incredibly quick.

You got it. I know I'm into brewing, and I know I want to continue with it. No question there. In retrospect, if it wasn't for the experience Extract Brewing gave me, I would have went straight to AG.

I say $2k as a top end budget. I'd love to spend less, Ideally a couple hundred, but if the system costs a bit more and allows for future expandability, customization, and improvements... I think thats worth it to me. I'm looking to strike that great balance between cost efficiency, getting the best product I can get, and being able to essentially start AG brewing with minimal fuss. I don't mind doing work on the system, installing lines and tweaking this and that or even attaining some form of table/stand to brew on... but I don't want to be welding, going to welding school, talking to my Union friends and ending up with broken knees for asking if they can do a job for me, etc. I'd rather be spending my time crafting my beer, instead of working out kinks in my system, troubleshooting this and that, and causing more variances that will ultimately lead me away from the glory land of consistancy.

Ideally, I'm looking to brew 10-15gal batches as well, so the land of small pots is kind of out of my scope. I'm not a sucker for stainless, but I suppose alot of people are. I don't really care what the hell my pot is made of, as long as it's functional, durable, and brews me great beer. If it is stainless and looks awesome, well thats bonus. Stainless however I woudl think is best for cleaning and sanitary concerns... considering it's generally used in Food Grade products... just a thought.

And, I appreciate ALL the input in this thread so far... thank you guys so much. I love this community.

 

[Sawdustguy]

You got it. I know I'm into brewing, and I know I want to continue with it. No question there. In retrospect, if it wasn't for the experience Extract Brewing gave me, I would have went straight to AG.

I say $2k as a top end budget. I'd love to spend less, Ideally a couple hundred, but if the system costs a bit more and allows for future expandability, customization, and improvements... I think thats worth it to me. I'm looking to strike that great balance between cost efficiency, getting the best product I can get, and being able to do essentially start AG brewing with minimal fuss. I don't mind doing work on the system, installing lines and tweaking this and that or even attaining some form of table/stand to brew on... but I don't want to be welding, going to welding school, talking to my Union friends and ending up with broken knees for asking if they can do a job for me, etc.

Ideally, I'm looking to brew 10-15gal batches as well, so the land of small pots is kind of out of my scope. I'm not a sucker for stainless, but I suppose alot of people are. I don't really care what the hell my pot is made of, as long as it's functional, durable, and brews me great beer. If it is stainless and looks awesome, well thats bonus. Stainless however I woudl think is best for cleaning and sanitary concerns... considering it's generally used in Food Grade products... just a thought.

And, I appreciate ALL the input in this thread so far... thank you guys so much. I love this community.

It's your money Billy. Don't let us spend it for you. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[BillyVegas]

This would all be alot easier if I went home and there was just a complete setup waiting for me.

I forsee lots of research and planning until I see my first home AG brew day...

 

[Bobby_M]

Ok, some other commentary then. Start with the vessels that will get you to your 10-15 gallon batches. You can brew on them while you get your "sculpture" details ironed out. If you have scrapyards near you, make a few visits. I've seen some great brew systems made from industrial stainless tables with holes cut out and they may also be a place to find stainless tanks or kegs to convert. Look out for pool filter housings that are painted but are really nice stainless tanks.

 

[BillyVegas]

Ok, some other commentary then. Start with the vessels that will get you to your 10-15 gallon batches. You can brew on them while you get your "sculpture" details ironed out. If you have scrapyards near you, make a few visits. I've seen some great brew systems made from industrial stainless tables with holes cut out and they may also be a place to find stainless tanks or kegs to convert. Look out for pool filter housings that are painted but are really nice stainless tanks.

Not a bad Idea, Bobby...

You look to live in Jersey... me to. Any recommended spots?

I have some time this weekend... I should go do some investigating.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I say $2k as a top end budget. I'd love to spend less, Ideally a couple hundred, but if the system costs a bit more and allows for future expandability, customization, and improvements... I think thats worth it to me.

Ask and you shall receive....

That is what I would do with your budget. You don't need a stand right away, just mount those pumps onto a board, or into a toolbox.

 

[BillyVegas]

Wow, easily this is the most Epic, customized reply to a post I've ever received. Much appreciated.

I need to analyze this a bit closer, but first impression shows me that I could likely eliminate the built in chillers. I'll be using a plate I think... that should save me some cash. At first at least.

Now, if I only knew someone who could weld. And/or chop the kegs up with the proper holes.

And, get kegs.

I'm impressed. I need to look this over more in detail. Thanks Boerderij!

 

[Bobby_M]

Bait and switch... Blichmann kettles in the pictures. ;-)

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Bait and switch... Blichmann kettles in the pictures. ;-)

My Kung Foo is strong.


BillyVegas- Cutting the holes is very easy with a step bit, a cordless drill, and a bit of vegi oil. Search "unibit" on ebay, and buy a bit that goes up to 7/8" at least. I think the #4 is the one I have.

 

[BrewBeemer]

BillyVegas; I must add to this thread that Bobby_M in reply number 15 said it all nothing else can be added, also Boerderij_Kabouter with his many replies especially his reply number 40.

With all due respect you want and can have a great brewing system within the app $2K range but first I must add that your wanting a system within a set budget but are not willing to put your labor, sweat and time into your build to meet your set budget.

Bottom line what gives here?

Do you have the equipment, talent, physical and mechanical abilities to scratch build your brewery? No offense on my part just asking a straight up question to you here?

Can you build your brewery system completly from scratch once you have a direction to aim at? With this do you have a Tig machine to save money welding your keggle fittings, grinder with cutoff wheels for the top or a plasma cutter, UniBits, holesaws plus a bandsaw or chop saw to build the frame? many unanswered questions here.
Sure a person with all the proper tools willing to spend hours of labor can have a full blown brewery at your $2,000 budget that can later become automated as they grow into their system like adding a BCS-460 to it. (my favorite owning one).
Nothing's free here, pay to have the work done and be over budget or put labor into building it and use the saved money for upgrading your system later into a fully automated system or how far you want to automate it.
Think about the saved money put towards a fermenter as well corny's and your bar with taps and a refrigeration system.

As seen by many brewing members projects you do not need a stainless stand that costs $600 in raw uncut materials alone.

You can't get something for nothing.
Best of luck on your project and the success of coming in with your budjet.
JMO's here, cheers.

 

[BillyVegas]

Thanks BrewBeemer for the inquiry...

Maybe I didn't clarify enough... The goal is to spend as little as possible, and ultimately have a barebones, stand-alone, full-on 15-20gal capable AG setup that can be modified as I proceed with my experience and wants, and I won't have to ditch as I grow.

Do I have skills to weld?
No.
Did I just find a friend who knows someone who welds?
Yes.
Do I want to learn to weld?
No.
Do I mind drilling holes?
No.
Do I mind putting blood, sweat, and tears into a new AG rig?
No.

Just looking for opinions of optimal setup, equipment, and layouts right now... I suppose I've evolved a bit from the OP. I've gotten some great ideas thus far... and always on the look out for more.

/this remains the greatest online community, btw

 

[beerthirty]

Bobby, you made mention you can't insulate a direct fired MLT. Is this due to worry of fire hazard? I direct fire all three of my insulated kettles and have never found this to be an issue. The insulation which is a hot water heater blanket is secured to the kettles with aluminum tape. Even the boil kettle which gets the hottest has never been a problem.

The MLT is insulated lower than the other kettles because of reduced heat used to prevent the grain bed from boiling up or scorching. The BK and HLT which take the full brunt of the burners have never had a fire issue, but for saftey when they were insulated I insulated the upper 2/3s. They were insulated to reduce heat loss(HLT and sparge tank) and reduce boil times and energy consumption(BK).

 

[BrewBeemer]

Thanks BrewBeemer for the inquiry...

Maybe I didn't clarify enough... The goal is to spend as little as possible, and ultimately have a barebones, stand-alone, full-on 15-20gal capable AG setup that can be modified as I proceed with my experience and wants, and I won't have to ditch as I grow.

Do I have skills to weld?
No.
Did I just find a friend who knows someone who welds?
Yes.
Do I want to learn to weld?
No.
Do I mind drilling holes?
No.
Do I mind putting blood, sweat, and tears into a new AG rig?
No.

Just looking for opinions of optimal setup, equipment, and layouts right now... I suppose I've evolved a bit from the OP. I've gotten some great ideas thus far... and always on the look out for more.

/this remains the greatest online community, btw

Billy; you just answered a lot of questions I had on your build.
If you do 90% of the labor including getting everything ready for
your welder so that he does not have to jig and hold parts and kegs
together this will save the welder's time. This is also 75% of the PITA
for the welder not the welding process. This way less labor and money
spent at the welder. Yes you can make your brewery come in within a
price range you can live with and afford. You can't have it all for nothing
unless you know of a big sucker of a friend which isn't right to use as one.
And yes take your time and look at manufactured brewing units, sneak in
their show room floor area and take measurements while collecting ideas.
Use many different manufactures of brewing rigs and use what part of their
system you like. With this you should be able to collect enough ideas to have
a direction to aim at in your build. You can keep the costs down for now and
later add automation later. A BCS-460 would be my first must have item as well
a supply of corny's and 15.5 gallon kegs. Get the hard to get items now
the regular items as the budget fits. This is how i'm building my next system.
hang in there plus check other bier forums for ideas also. I'm in the same boat collecting parts.

I have collected a Baldor industrial motor w/gearbox for the Monster Mill 3-2.0, stir motor for the prop in the HLT, BCS-460, 24 corny kegs 1 coke, two 7.75 gallon kegs, sixteen 15.5 gallon kegs, six computer fans with a ECROS speed control for the yeast starter with stir bar, four 20# Co2 bottles, one 150 cu/ft Argon which will become the Nitro stout mixed gas bottle, regulators and gauges. My rat packing collection to start with. Plasma, Tig and Mig, lathe and Bridgeport mill in the shop at home. bad back has me stopped dead in the water on the surgery mend. It can be built within a limited price range, keep an eye on craigslist and ebay for deals when they pop up.
Good luck with your parts hunting, that is half the fun of the build. cheers.

 

[beerthirty]

Since BrewBeemer mentioned the BCS-460, I will mention the Brewtroller. The Brewtroller is meant to manage anybody's brew system, regardless of build and style. It will also handle fermentation control and the build is still expanding to include steam mash, double HLT fill, remote access, logging and IIRC 32 outout controls. Just about anything a user asks for. It is a flexible system designed to meet the needs of all brewers at a inexpensive price point. Check them out at BrewTroller | BrewTroller.

 

[Cape Brewing]

Just to toss in my two cents... (which I'm sure is worth LESS than two cents).

If you're going to build something up, don't ignore aluminum pots as a possibility. I have a 15-20 gallon batch size capability (depending on OG and grain bill) out of aluminum pots. I have two 25 gallon pots, one as a HLT and one as a BK and then a 20 mounted inside a 30 with spray foam insulation blown in between for my MT.

I have all weldless fittings that were easily found on McMaster and I love my rig.

It is a single tier HERMS that I went a bit overboard on with solenoid valves and temp controllers etc... but you could EASILY strip it down and still have it very functional for well under $2k.

Of course the only problem is aluminum will cause you to have four headed children... with Alziemers.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Did you ever decide on a design? Any progress?

 

[BillyVegas]

Ha! I wish.

No progress. I got sidetracked by real life circumstances but just put a *small* order in yesterday to add a Shirron Plate Chiller to my brewing setup as of now...

Absolutely ZERO progress on my home AG New Rig, but I got my eyes open here in the classifieds and craigslists all over for some equipment hawking.

I think once I secure some lagre vessels of any sort, I'll be picking back up this again. Aluminum, SS... whatever I can get my hands on to do some 10gal batches and I'd be a happy lad.

In the meantime- stovetop Extract homebrewing for me.

Thanks for the checkup though! I was looking for this thread yesterday and suprised to see you followed up! I still have your plans and constantly go over them as I have some other ideas and come across new ones.

When I make moves on this, you'll all know!

 

[BillyVegas]

Yes, time to revive 2+ year old threads!

After getting alot of brews in under my belt... I've unlocked the "Brew on a piecemeal annoying rig" achievement. It's time for me to assess a full inventory of my goods, decide what is to be used, form my ideal rig... and make it happen. I'm going to try to draw up what I'm thinking I'd like to do... and would appreciate any input you all have.

More to come shortly!

 

[BillyVegas]

I'm attempting to draw out my rig... but on my laptop without a mouse and with no programs outside of Paint... it's rough. Let me type it out and see if I can make a visual...

Goal:
A system to yield me 10 (possibly 20) gallons of homebrew in a timely fashion. Pumps, contained hoses, and burners in a moveable unit. The ability to add automated, temp controlled burners in the future would be a plus, but initially it's not necessary.

HLT:
Would like to use something along these lines in my HLT. I've brewed on a system with this before and I like the idea of this greatly. For one, it allows you to heat the MLT liquid via direct fire, and utilize a pump on this exchanger to add to the heat, saving me time. Add to that, it sits in the kettle/keggle and allows for easy removal and cleaning. The only porting on the HLT would be a thermometer and/or thermocouple. The burner on the HLT should be beefy enough to get me to my desired temp in under an hour.

MLT:
Burner on this guy should be working in conjunction when the HLT is fired up -- getting me to my proper temp on MLT and HLT in under an hour. As far as sparging goes, I love the idea of a float switch fly arm. The one I brewed on previously was electronically controlled... which I'm assuming is adding ~$500 to my overall costs. I like it, but not sure if I like it that much? In any event, I'm looking into the Blichmann AutoSparge this moment, but it looks like it will just disappoint me and make me want my automated float switch sparge arm. I'm open to other options but I really dug this feature. Exit valve, thermometer and/or thermocouple on this guy as well.

The Catch? I already have a Coleman 70qt xTreme Cooler I mash in, and I love it. Sure, I'd like to upgrade to a kettle/keggle but... I think I can somehow make this work. I'd like a false bottom in this thing, and I'm currently spec'ing that out to see if its feasible. Otherwise, I think I can get a floating sparge arm on this thing... somehow. If it saves me some cost in the meantime while upgrading... I'm down to use the cooler. If there isn't a way around it... I can fill it with ice and beer and roll in my kettle/keggle. I like the idea of direct firing the MLT... it really cuts down on time for the brewday.

Boil:
Straight up. A nice burner to get me to boil ASAP, and an exit valve on the bottom. Some form of hop filtering would be ideal.

Pumps:
I think I can get away with one pump on this system. Pump in use on the heat exchanger during getting the MLT to Strike Temp. Disconnected and dormant during mash. Connected to MLT exit valve > sparge arm for vorlauf'ing... and then connected to HLT > float switch Sparge Arm for mash. Not opposed to having another pump for convenience sake, but I think 1 will suffice.


Thoughts? Critique? Ideas?
Let's do this. I'd like to get this off the ground early 2013.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I'll bite... what's the budget? Do you have kettles?

 

[BillyVegas]

I'll bite... what's the budget? Do you have kettles?

Just the man I was looking for! I owe you multiple beers.

Currently, I have one kettle... and the one aforementioned Coleman xTreme 70qt Cooler used as a MLT. There is no HLT in my system... all my other kettles are under 8 gallons if I recall... the large one might work for HLT needs... but I'm not 100% sure without looking at it, confirming its size, and working numbers in my head.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Do you want any level of automation?

 

[BillyVegas]

Do you want any level of automation?

As most thing, depends on ultimate cost. I'd like to have automated burner via temp switch on the HLT at a min... but I guess if you're doing that you ma as well go full bore?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Not necessarily. What I am envisioning is as follows:

HLT:

-kettle as you desire at least 15 gallons
-installed drain with a valve and some kind of return
-thermowell
- immersion chiller (not with the convoluted coils, those a massive waste of money see here for why. Sorry about the format it got destroyed by the site.)
-burner, I would go with a banjo​

MLT:

-just use your cooler, add a sparge system if you want​

BK:

-kettle as you desire at least 15 gallons
-installed drain with a valve
-burner, I would go with a banjo​

Controls:

-enclosure (toolbox or whatever)
-a gas valve
-connections to the gas valve
-LOVE temperature switch
-march pump
-switch​

That will get you where you are looking to go with minimal cash outlay. You would be running a HERMS. Heat up strike water in BK, heat up sparge water in HLT, pump strike water into cooler, circulate mash through the coil in the HLT with the pump. I think you should be able to do all that for around a grand without running any numbers.

 

[BillyVegas]

Aye.

HLT:
-Agree on all points
-Thanks for the convoluted coil science truthbomb... makes complete sense.

MLT:
-Im a fan od the coleman cooler. I just need to solidify my drainage method (coil, manifold, or false bottom)... and then figure out how to rig a float controlled sparge arm on it.

BK:
-Agree on all points.

Controls:
-What kind of connections are used for the gas valve > temp controller switching? It seems like just a advanced (or maybe simplified) furnace setup.
-I remember seeing the LOVE brand controllers as a big name on the HERMS setups in posts past. I suppose they are still the brand to go with for temp automation/control.
-Already have March Pump. What are you envisioning the switch to be controlling?
-

 

[Calichusetts]

Not a complete system but could help with the space system:

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/BIAB-Electric-Brewing-System-p3987.htm