After Only 4 Batches I have an Investor? WAH?

[kirscp]

They can pay for grains and hops, whatever they want to pay. You just can't sell the final product. Pretty easy to get around the Fed.

There are businesses that do the above. You rent their equipment, buy the grains/hops, rent their space, etc. The business makes money, but isn't selling beer.



1. A person may operate a "Brew-on-Premises" (BOP) business without qualifying as a brewery or paying excise tax on beer produced at the BOP by adults under the conditions outlined below. No Federal regulations currently apply to the operation of a BOP business.

2. Adults may produce beer at a BOP for personal or family use. Adults who use BOP facilities to make beer are governed by existing regulations in 27 CFR §§ 25.205 - 25.206, as follows:

* Adults must be 18 years of age (or other age required for the purchase of beer in the locality).
* Adults may jointly produce beer at a BOP provided other conditions are met. Adults may produce beer must for personal or family use only.
* Personal and family beer is not subject to Federal excise tax. A home brewer may produce, without payment of tax, per household, up to 100 gallons per calendar year if there is one adult residing in the household, or 200 gallons of beer per year if there are two or more adults residing in the household.
* Home brewers may remove their beer from the BOP for personal or family use, including use in organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions (such as homemaker's contests or tastings).
* Home brewers may not produce beer for sale or offer their beer for sale.

3. Proprietors and employees of Brew-on-Premises facilities: May furnish space, brewing equipment, ingredients, bottling supplies, and advice and expertise to customers. They may also furnish unfermented wort to BOP customers. May provide certain assistance to customers including: Moving containers of beer between storage areas. Cleaning, maintenance, and repair of equipment. Climate and temperature control. Disposal of spent grains and wastes. Quality control (including laboratory analysis and tasting of beer for quality control purposes). May not provide physical assistance to, or on behalf of, customers in the production, storage, or bottling of beer; for example, employees may not ferment mash, filter or bottle beer, add sugar or other ingredients to beer, or provide other physical assistance in producing or bottling beer. May not provide non-tax paid beer to customers or prospective customers for sampling purposes.

 

[bad coffee]

At the last house party here, I put a donation box on the kegerator.

There were two slots cut in the top of the box. One side said "this is great beer." the other said "This beer sucks, where's the bud lite?" In the middle it said "vote with your $, all money goes for more beer!"

Both slots went into the same box.

The party was from 9pm until 8am the next day. We kicked 3 kegs and put a big dent in 3 more.

In the morning I opened the box and found $9. Later I found out that one of my roommates put in $8 as a donation for more beer stuff.

The next party will have 2 kegs of ale and when it's gone it's gone.

No more tip jars for me.

However, if your friend wants to buy you an all grain setup in exchange for you making beer wort for him, I think that's great.

He buys you a brew stand with 15gal bling pots and a march pump, CFC, a couple of conicals, yeast freezing/slanting tools/ and kegging setup.
You have him buy ingredients and ship them to your place.

You make the wort, put it into the conicals. He comes over and pitches the yeast. Then he comes over and bottles when it's ready. He takes his beer home, and does whatever he wants with it.

You use the brew setup to make the beers you want.

Also put on the list you want a $50,000 bond set up so you can bail yourself out and pay the fines, court costs, and lawyer fees when you get busted.

Tell him no go until you get the bond.

B

 

[PavlovsCat]

Yeah... I don't know about you folks, but spending time in a federal prison just doesn't sound like fun to me.

On the up side, you could learn to brew a great toilet raisin jack. You'll be a hero among the other cons. May keep you out of the sack with Bubba.

 

[bmckee56]

I like the idea of a "Happy Hour Party" but then you run the risk of a friend or attendee leaving intoxicated and getting stopped for DUI or having some sort of accident and they come after you for providing the juice.

Guess it's no different than any other gathering of friends to enjoy a few brews, but it sure is scary to think of the consequences.

As for taking the money, I think I would do as others have suggested and invest it in good equipment and supplies and get my friend to assist, or make his own.

Salute!

 

[notwoohoo]

They can pay for grains and hops, whatever they want to pay. You just can't sell the final product. Pretty easy to get around the Fed.

There are businesses that do the above. You rent their equipment, buy the grains/hops, rent their space, etc. The business makes money, but isn't selling beer.



1. A person may operate a "Brew-on-Premises" (BOP) business without qualifying as a brewery or paying excise tax on beer produced at the BOP by adults under the conditions outlined below. No Federal regulations currently apply to the operation of a BOP business.

2. Adults may produce beer at a BOP for personal or family use. Adults who use BOP facilities to make beer are governed by existing regulations in 27 CFR §§ 25.205 - 25.206, as follows:

* Adults must be 18 years of age (or other age required for the purchase of beer in the locality).
* Adults may jointly produce beer at a BOP provided other conditions are met. Adults may produce beer must for personal or family use only.
* Personal and family beer is not subject to Federal excise tax. A home brewer may produce, without payment of tax, per household, up to 100 gallons per calendar year if there is one adult residing in the household, or 200 gallons of beer per year if there are two or more adults residing in the household.
* Home brewers may remove their beer from the BOP for personal or family use, including use in organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions (such as homemaker's contests or tastings).
* Home brewers may not produce beer for sale or offer their beer for sale.

3. Proprietors and employees of Brew-on-Premises facilities: May furnish space, brewing equipment, ingredients, bottling supplies, and advice and expertise to customers. They may also furnish unfermented wort to BOP customers. May provide certain assistance to customers including: Moving containers of beer between storage areas. Cleaning, maintenance, and repair of equipment. Climate and temperature control. Disposal of spent grains and wastes. Quality control (including laboratory analysis and tasting of beer for quality control purposes). May not provide physical assistance to, or on behalf of, customers in the production, storage, or bottling of beer; for example, employees may not ferment mash, filter or bottle beer, add sugar or other ingredients to beer, or provide other physical assistance in producing or bottling beer. May not provide non-tax paid beer to customers or prospective customers for sampling purposes.

All of this information is great and all, but state law applies as well. For example, BoP isn't legal in Georgia, but *** is. I'd recommend the OP do research for his particular situation

 

[taylornate]

I agree with those that say regardless of laws, it is douchie to charge friends for such things. I have a neighbor that charged his "friend", another neighbor, $20 to mow his grass because he didnt have a mower last year. Super douchie... you dont charge neighbors for doing them a favor, and you dont charge friends for beer. Next thing you know, you are over at thier house watching the game and they charge you a buck for each beer you take from thier fridge. Now, that would be funny!

Dont take the money, dont charge your friends...

In my opinion it would be super douchie to expect someone to mow your grass all summer without getting paid.

 

[Cheeto]

take your buddy with the cash to the LHBS and teach him to brew! put together a club and help others in their brewing endevours !

Then share with everyone !!!!

-just a thought

Jason

 

[JVD_X]

So so true. Making money off of friends is just weird.

I actually have to disagree. My wife has several direct sales companies and while the vast majority of her sales come from friends-of-friends or friend-of-friend-of-friends she still sells to friends. It's not creepy at all and it's a testament to the quality of your products and your integrity to not only have your friends buy stuff from you but also recommend you to their friends - even though there is nothing in it for them.

I like the idea of a "Happy Hour Party" but then you run the risk of a friend or attendee leaving intoxicated and getting stopped for DUI or having some sort of accident and they come after you for providing the juice.

Some states like Virgina do not recognize host liability in these cases.

 

[aaronbeer]

what about a bring your own grain party. Have a list of grains you want and people come a drink and bring grain. Its like a baby show but for beer!

 

[BierMuncher]

Here's my plan.

Roll out the rolling kegerator.

Charge $1.00 to demonstrate said rolling kegerator.

Demonstration consists of filling one standard ale glass and setting said glass aside on a table somewhere. End of demonstration.

For every $1.00 paid, I repeat said demonstration.

Now what happens to each glass of those "demonstrations"?

How should I know.

 

[Rubberband]

Being a noob brewer, I have a similar dilema. My boss likes my homebrew and wants to pay me for beer. I refuse to take money for the beer but I do brew any recipe kits that he may purchase. He wants 30 bottles from the batch and I keep the rest. To date it is working okay but I certainly don't want risk Federal Pound Me in the A$$ prison for homebrew.

Actually, ATF isn't my worst fear. I am afraid I'll brew a real crap batch and he'll fire me for the transgression. Let your friends kick in for ingredients or equipment but don't get caught up in selling the beer. That's my 2 cents.

 

[theonecynic]

Next year I'm going to teach my housemates to brew. One's already said he'll buy some equipment (extra barrels mainly to keep pace with the increased demand!) and I can see us having some laughs with it. I'm hoping six barrels will be enough...

 

[user 33090]

I enjoy making guitars, and other instruments. A couple years ago (was fairly new to building), I took some money to buy supplies for a friend to make him a guitar. It kind of took the fun out of it because he was asking me every other day when it would be finished. When it was finished, he didn't like it (even thought he paid for the materials and not the time spent making it). Now I know to either make instruments as a hobby and not sell / take money until I start a business (if I ever do). Just my 2 cents.

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

Here's what I did. Some folks from work were throwing a party, we needed about 20gals.

Everyone wanted to chip in, so I put a pail out. I took $20 to offset *some* of the grain cost, and the other $160 went to a local charity.

Hell, I almost felt guilty about taking the $20. Almost.

 

[Medo]

Just remember that it will only take one pissed off customer to notify the ATF. Doesn't matter if it was your friend or his ex-girlfriend who he just cheated on.

DUDE!!!!!
If that ain't the Gospel Truth, I dont know what is. Especially the ex girlfriend part. BEWARE!

I stand mute on this issue otherwise, thus being covered by plausible deniability

 

[Nitsua]

Years ago I lived with 3 buddies in college and we had massive parties. I ran the bar, we had a sign up that read "FREE SHOT w/ $1 Donation". All the money went to funding the next party. We would usually have $300-$400 worth of liqueur on hand to chose from and at least 1 keg.
The cops very rarely would come by, usually on a noise complaint, I'd just tare the sign down asap.
No one had an issue paying something because the cost was low and people did not have a problem supporting the party. I would sometimes even get tips on top of that. When we were not having a party it was just a large open bar for friends.
I miss those days.

The parties were large and expensive, and not everyone there was a friend.
With home brewing so far I do not produce near enough to really be a huge dent in the wallet, or provide my friends with a small fraction of what they consume. I'll probably never have parties like that again, but I am looking forward to just hanging with friends and having a home brew.

I could see trying the idea of getting people to chip in on the ingredient. but I would not be comfortable exchanging cash from friends for a six pack.

There is an interesting ethical puzzle there, why before and not after? Probably because of fear from the law, o-well

I miss the foosball table most, it's all in storage

 

[user 30639]

This sounds like a good way to attract the attention of TABC. Having them buy the ingredients then giving them the beer is probably a much safer way to go.

 

[Sigafoos]

When I first started brewing I gave a six pack to anyone I knew who liked beer... but then I realized that 60% of my batches were going to friends and family. I considered asking for $5 from each of them to offset costs, but felt weird. Now I just bring some with me if I go over and it seems appropriate; works out well for everybody.

 

[Homercidal]

I wish I knew more people who liked beer. I have some friends that only drink the light stuff and only know a couple of people who homebrew. I would probably just ask for someone to buy their ingredients if they were interested in drinking more than a bit. That way you get to brew, and they get beer.

I don't think there is any way of going to a big system and staying legal. The fact is it would only take a few batches to break the limit. Plus you are obviously not "homebrewing" if someone were to take a peek at your system. Questions would be asked.

 

[justinakajuice]

As long as you don't sell it, you're within the law.

"Can I buy a twelve pack?"
"No. You can donate XX dollars and you can have a twelve pack."

 

[Homercidal]

As long as you don't sell it, you're within the law.

"Can I buy a twelve pack?"
"No. You can donate XX dollars and you can have a twelve pack."

Hmmm... This would be comparable to paying for the company of a lady who just so happens to want to have sex with you? I'm not sure this would pass muster in a court of law. If so, we would not be able to charge prostitutes with anything.

Hmm... Prostitute Porter...

 

[bull8042]

Not going to comment on the legality of selling homebrew as it has been covered ad naseum. However, I will comment on the ethical side of taking money from friends. My grandfather used to own a radio/television shop. He was asked many years ago about how he could charge a friend for working on their TV. His response was simple a one, "I have to charge my friends because my enemies won't do business with me". Pretty wise words in my opinion.

 

[taylornate]

As long as you don't sell it, you're within the law.

"Can I buy a twelve pack?"
"No. You can donate XX dollars and you can have a twelve pack."

Call it what you want but you've just sold beer.

 

[Helter]

As long as you stayed small, and only sold to friends/people you know, I don't see how you'd get busted for this.
Even if they got wise to it, how would they prove anything? They send someone in undercover to buy beer, you say "I don't know you, you can't have any".

As far as taking money from friends, I guess it depends on how you do it. If you invite friends over then charge them for the beer they drink, then you're a ******. If you invite friends over, give them beer, then say "by the way, I'm selling this stuff at $30 a case if you like it" then that is different.

 

[dontman]

Your friends can buy your ingredients for you; so you brew for free and then you give them 1/2 of the beer. That's fair and legal.

And fantastically not worth it. If you charged what you should charge based on time, ingredients, time, loss of product, time, you would have to charge about $200 / case.

Not to mention the batches that just turn out mediocre and your friends feel they didn't get their money's worth.

Maybe if you had a 1 BBL system it might be worth it. But then it would Federal AND big enough that they would notice and care.

I don't mind giving a six away now and then, in fact I very much enjoy it, but if this hobby became a responsibility then a lot of the fun would be gone. The last few weeks I have been very busy and have not wanted to brew. It would suck if I had felt obligated to do so.

Tell your friends to save money and go buy all of the stellar craft beer that is available at any beer store to fill in the gaps of when you feel like giving them some beer.

 

[CnnmnSchnpps]

... POUND ME IN THE ASS ...

... take your GF ...

Must... resist... urge... make... smartass... comment...

Seriously though, making money off friends sounds like a ****** maneuver.

However having them pitch in for ingredients sounds like a great idea which I might even try myself once I get more experience. My current dilemma is that I want to try brewing many more styles and do lots of experimentation but I don't drink that much beer, and I don't have the money to be pouring into ingredients just to give the stuff away.

Also, keep in mind that regardless of your intentions, getting close to the gray areas of the law may not be such a great idea...

If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged.

 

[taylornate]

Seriously though, making money off friends sounds like a ****** maneuver.

However having them pitch in for ingredients sounds like a great idea which I might even try myself once I get more experience.

How would you get your friends to pitch in for ingredients without taking money from them?

 

[carnevoodoo]

Not going to comment on the legality of selling homebrew as it has been covered ad naseum. However, I will comment on the ethical side of taking money from friends. My grandfather used to own a radio/television shop. He was asked many years ago about how he could charge a friend for working on their TV. His response was simple a one, "I have to charge my friends because my enemies won't do business with me". Pretty wise words in my opinion.

But he owned a shop. I have friends who are professional brewers and I will buy their products fairly often. WAY different than selling beer out of your garage.

 

[carnevoodoo]

How would you get your friends to pitch in for ingredients without taking money from them?

You take them to the store and have them buy stuff, or you buy it and they reimburse you for the ingredients. That's not making money off of your friends though. That's very different.

 

[Baldy_Beer_Brewery]

As long as you don't sell it, you're within the law.

While I doubt many of these ideas to brew the hell out of everything and fly inder the radar would ever take off. The fact is you can only brew a limited amount for personal use in mosts states. Now you are back to the thing someone posted earlier; It just takes one pissed off ******* or ex-girlfriend to **** it up for you.