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a419 temp controller

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Thehopguy

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picked one of these up for my chest freezer and i'm having a hard time figuring this out. im not the most tech savvy guy i guess u could say

ive ran a couple tests with it and another thermometer in there to crosscheck the temps. i read some older threads about the controller and what other people were setting theirs to and i tried to set mine similar.

all talk of degrees is fahrenheit

just ran another test..SP was set to 63 degrees ( im gonna be fermenting ales in here) ASd to 12 offset to 2 degrees.

the controller turned the thing off at about 61 degrees according to the a419 but my other thermometer read ~55 degrees. after the thing kicked off it continued to get colder...56 degrees on the a419 and 50 on the other thermometer. and looks like its continuing to get colder.. it just kicked off a couple minutes ago.

are my settings wrong?? can anyone help me :(

Edit: my probes are resting in the air about 2/3 the way up and are close by each other
 
Update:

Its been off for about 15-20 minutes now. Both the controllers probe and the thermometers probe have gotten close to each other in temp now. Controller reads 52 degrees F and the thermometer reads 53 degrees F.

But either way I had my SP(Set point) to 63 degrees. What gives
 
Im having difficulty understanding what you are saying..

From what i understand is that your settings are:
asd = 12
diff = 2
setpoint = 63
controller is in cooling/cut-in mode

lets assume your freezer is at 80 degrees to start
-since temp inside your freezer 63 or greater, the temp controller will be on, supplying power to freezer (green light will be on as well)

-temperature decreases

-temp inside the fridge hits 61,
-temp controller clicks off and is disabled for 12 minutes(due to asd)

-after 12 mins, temp controller will start monitoring temperature again
-if temperature controller detects temperature being 63 or greater, temp controller will turn on


Some problems u may be having:
set offset to 0, use diff setting instead
be sure your temp controller is set to cooling mode
be sure your temp controller is set to cut-in mode
 
@ ODI3

thank you for reply first of all...

and yes everything you said is right.... i went through the menu and couldnt find a cut in or cut out option but i believe i am in cut in which i think is the default.

Update on the freezer. i kept it on and plugged in. it warmed up and got to around 61+ degrees and then the freezer kicked in yet it went down to around 53-54 degrees F again. I changed the setpoint to around 67 hoping it will kick in around 67 then maybe only cool to about 60+ then warm up and kick in keeping it through 60-67 i hope...
 
cooling mode/heating mode, cutin/ cut out are adjusted via jumpers when you open the box, not in the menu.

If u have a snowflake on the screen, that means you are on cooling mode, if your temp controller is delivering power when you are above your setpoint(green light being on), you are in cut in mode

One thing about freezers is that they run on compressors and are designed to keep the freezer much colder than we are wanting for our application. When a compressor starts up, it gains momentum and gets stronger and stronger the longer it is supplied power.

If you only supply power for 1 min, the compressor may only knock it down 5 degrees, but if u supply power for 10 min, u may get 20 degree variance. To get a more consistant temperature in the freezer, you would want to set the diff to 1, and asd to 0.

This would not allow the compressor to gain much momentium and keep your freezer at a more even temperature, unfortunately it would force your compressor to turn off and on a lot which is hard on it.

therefore, an acceptable balance must be found between an acceptable variance in temperature and frequency of the freezer turning off and on.

I hope something in this helps.

PS. You really dont have to bother using asd since the freezer will tend to take more then 12 minutes to warm up anyway as long as your diff is set reasonably.
 
PS. You really dont have to bother using asd since the freezer will tend to take more then 12 minutes to warm up anyway as long as your diff is set reasonably.
This is not correct. There is NEVER a reason to NOT use ASD with a compressor based system, and preferably have it set its maximum value. ASD's purpose is to protect the compressor from "hot starts". This can happen for various reasons like door openings, probe becoming detached from its mounting point, when switching the probe placement.

Under normal circumstances, the ASD should not factor into the temp control equation. So, it shouldn't affect anything unless it is needed to protect the compressor.
 
Agreed. Set asd to at least 5.

You said offset but I'm assuming you mean dif. Don't use offset.

Make sure the jumpers are set to cooling mode (snowflake on display) and set the other jumper to cut out.

Setpoint 63 with a 2f diff with turn it on at 65 and off at 63. You can use a diff of 1 but you'd want to buffer the probe.
 
Offset, I believe, is for calibrating the thermostat. I checked mine with a thermapen, and subsequently set mine to -1

I use diff = 1, asd = 6, and it works great.
 
Buffering it from sudden changes in air temp due to opening the door. I like to secure the probe to the side of the fermenter. However, as long as you limit your messing around with the door open to a minute or two, a long asd will do the buffering for you.
 
Bobby_M said:
Buffering it from sudden changes in air temp due to opening the door. I like to secure the probe to the side of the fermenter. However, as long as you limit your messing around with the door open to a minute or two, a long asd will do the buffering for you.

Oh, yeah. I tape it to my fermentor and cover it with plenty of insulation. Not so much to protect my compressor as the fact that I'm trying to control the temperature in the fermentor, not so much the air surrounding it :)
 
SO I just set mine up.

trying to get it working before i brew this weekend.

I set up the temp for 40 degrees (cold crashing a starter, figured why not test it with this) 14 cubic foot chest freezer with 15 gallons in it right now, set the dif to 1, and I am getting 5 degree temp swings. I have the probe insulated and taped to the side of a carboy full of water. But regardless, if the dif is set to 1, why would the unit not shut itself of regardless when that change in temp occurs?
 
im sure someone with more experience can shed some more light on this but..I dont know if its a good idea to cold crash a starter. Wouldn't this send your yeast into dormancy?
 
checkii said:
SO I just set mine up.

trying to get it working before i brew this weekend.

I set up the temp for 40 degrees (cold crashing a starter, figured why not test it with this) 14 cubic foot chest freezer with 15 gallons in it right now, set the dif to 1, and I am getting 5 degree temp swings. I have the probe insulated and taped to the side of a carboy full of water. But regardless, if the dif is set to 1, why would the unit not shut itself of regardless when that change in temp occurs?

I had the same thing happening to me. Here is what I found. A freezer is designed to freeze. When the compressor switches on the coils in the walls chill to below freezing. When your temp control reaches its Target it turns off the freezer. At this point the walls of the freezer are still colder then the set point and continue to chill the inside of the freezer.

What I do to combat this:
I have a fan that circulates the air.
I only insulate the temp probe to a fermentor I want to control the temperature of. Otherwise I do not insulate the probe when using the freezer as a frig to keep kegs cold or cold crash. I have found insulation the probe by its self just creates larger temperature swings. The most I will do is put the probe in an empty glass jug otherwise it gets left in the air. I let the ASD do the work.

Hope this helps.
 
I had the same thing happening to me. Here is what I found. A freezer is designed to freeze. When the compressor switches on the coils in the walls chill to below freezing. When your temp control reaches its Target it turns off the freezer. At this point the walls of the freezer are still colder then the set point and continue to chill the inside of the freezer.

What I do to combat this:
I have a fan that circulates the air.
I only insulate the temp probe to a fermentor I want to control the temperature of. Otherwise I do not insulate the probe when using the freezer as a frig to keep kegs cold or cold crash. I have found insulation the probe by its self just creates larger temperature swings. The most I will do is put the probe in an empty glass jug otherwise it gets left in the air. I let the ASD do the work.

Hope this helps.

what is the ASD setting?

i'm at work and dont have my manual on me.

i think i have it set to 0 right now.

what you are saying makes perfect sense because my swings are all colder than my target temp. It's going about 5 below and 2 over.
 
checkii said:
what is the ASD setting?

i'm at work and dont have my manual on me.

i think i have it set to 0 right now.

what you are saying makes perfect sense because my swings are all colder than my target temp. It's going about 5 below and 2 over.

ASD stands for automatic shutdown.
It's purpose is to keep the compressor from cycling on and off excessively. You want it set to its highest setting to preserve the life of the compressor. This setting should be set to 12 on the a419
 
I had the same thing happening to me. Here is what I found. A freezer is designed to freeze. When the compressor switches on the coils in the walls chill to below freezing. When your temp control reaches its Target it turns off the freezer. At this point the walls of the freezer are still colder then the set point and continue to chill the inside of the freezer.

This is basically the fundamental problem with cold side temperature control.

I think that anyone with any degree of temp control success will agree that it is best to monitor the temperature of the wort, rather than to just leave the probe dangling in the air. Even attaching/submerging the probe in a jug of water is a distant second to monitoring the wort itself. After all, we are fermenting the wort, not the air (or jug of water). Using a thermowell vs insulating and taping the probe against the side of the carboy is up to you - many tests say the readings will be virtually the same. However, the first time the taped probe falls off the carboy in the middle of fermentation, your mind will be made up for you about which method is safer.

So back to the problem with cold side temp control...

Let's establish some constants. I think we can agree that an actively fermenting carboy will generate some degree of heat (I have heard anywhere from 5-10F above ambient). Lets also agree that you have taken the earlier advice to heart and you have the probe measuring the temperature of the wort itself (if you are not measuring the wort itself, then IMO, you eliminate yourself from the conversation because you are basically flying blind on what is actually happening inside your carboy). Now, you want to ferment an ale at 67 degrees. We can use Bobby's suggestion of 2f diff, because I think that is pretty common advice. You will set it to cut-in (cool) when the temp probe reads 67, and cut off when it reads 65. (or some variation of that - 68/66 for example). That sounds great, but if it really worked right, you wouldn't have all of these threads about the probe reading a temp below the range the controller is set for.

As the post I quoted above notes, when your probe reads 67, and your temp controller tells the freezer to kick on, it begins to rapidly cool the air inside the freezer, as well as the freezer itself. It is not designed to cool the air to 65, it is designed to cool the air to freezer temperatures. There is going to be a huge discrepency between the ambient temperature and the wort temperature, yet I am sure it will take some time for ambient air to bring an actively fermenting wort (which has thermal properties of its own) down by 2 degrees F. All that time that the freezer is running, the air is getting colder and colder inside the freezer. At some point, the probe will read 65 F, and the freezer will kick off. The problem is that the freezer will now do as designed, and keep the contents cold. Again, ambient is not 65 (as the wort is-for the time being) because ambient was trying to get down to freezer temps. That ice cold ambient air will continue to cool the wort long after the freezer turns off -> and that is why you are getting probe readings below your Johnson Controller's set points. Eventually, the air will warm inside the idle freezer, and the fermenting wort will (hopefully) heat itself back up to 67 again, but once that happens, the cycle just repeats itself. Yo-yo temperatures are not an ideal scenario, especially when you are using yeast that tends to flocculate and fall out of solution when exposed to cold temperatures.

My solution calls for a steady (~10-15F below fermentation temp) ambient temperature with a temp controller set-up to heat a fermwrap, which naturally, is attached to the carboy. That steady temp can be a cold basement, spare bathroom, a fridge, or even a freezer with a cheap analog control. Its been rightly pointed out that my method seems inefficient because it utilizes competing temperatures, but the ultimate result is being able to dial in an exact wort temperature throughtout fermentation, and keep it there with absolutely zero baby-sitting.

To briefly explain, I choose to put my carboy into a dorm fridge. The fridge is set to a low cooling power (I've measured the ambient temp with a kitchen probe and it stays at ~46F). Again, the fridge is constantly on (running as normal). The Johnson Controller is set with a 1 degree differential, jumpers modified to heat, and hooked up to a fermwrap. The probe is placed in a carboy cap thermowell, which is how I choose to measure wort temperature (see probe falls off side of carboy - ruins beer). I use a temp setting of 1 degree above where I want the wort to be (if I am fermenting at 67, I set the controller to 68F). ASD is a non-issue, because there is no compressor involved - the fermwrap is more like a glorified heating blanket, with virtually no moving parts.

The heater is just there as an assist to the actively fermenting carboy. The differential between ambient and wort temps (10-20 degrees F) is enough to pull in the reigns from the temps running away on the high side, but the fermwrap ensures the temps do not fall below my set point as activity slows. In my example, the heater will kick on when ambient bring the wort down to 66F - and because the fermwrap is a direct heat source, unlike ambient air, I have never seen it fall below the 1 degree differential set point. The cold side fermentation control method lacks that factor - once you fire your cooling source, there is no opposing force to assist the wort temperature from continuing to fall. My method flips that issue, but I have the opposing outside source (a constant state of cool ambient air) to keep the temperature of the wort from going through the ceiling.

I could certainly improve the efficiency of my method with a dual stage controller that could keep the fridge temps a little warmer, but that does introduce a couple problems. One, it is more moving parts to damage (see blown compressor), and I start to introduce the same control problems that everyone is already having with their fridges/freezers. Secondly, and more importantly, I lose a working fridge. Right now, it is running as designed by the factory, and I use it to store hop pellets in the freezer and yeast vials in the door - I lose those abilities if the fridge is kept warmer.

Again, the energy efficiency of my set up is not the best, but the control is incredible - to me, that is the important part. Below is a pic with the door open. Notice how there is ice in the freezer, but the temp controller is reading a wort temp of 61F (it was a Cal Common). I currently have a Belgian Pale Ale at the tail end of fermentation with a set temp of 69F and a similiar ice build-up in the working freezer.

So long story short, consider some form of two stage control - it will solve all of your current issues.

Joe

inside chamber.jpg


61 degrees.jpg
 
When I had only a single stage controller, I left a 20W brew-belt permanently on in just on the floor of my freezer and it seemed to do the trick. A bit inefficient, but was weak enough that the freezer didn't constantly have to cycle on. Since my freezer is in the garage, it also helped maintain temps during the cool nighttime.
 
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