4 Popular Brew Kettles Compared

[JKoravos]

Replace C. bot with something aerobic that produces heat-stable toxins...

Let us know when you find one.

 

[mccabedoug]

A little background for those who don't know me. By day, I'm a manufacturing/engineering manager in a large dairy plant. By large, I mean we go through 2 million pounds of milk a day.



Any kind of threaded fitting poses a harborage risk. That's why we don't allow threaded fittings on any surface that makes product contact. 3A sanitary design standards don't even allow a non-radiused 90-degree corner inside a tank. Maybe if you go at every threaded fitting with a toothbrush and cleaner, you can get a pipe thread truly clean.

Saying that there is "no risk" with a weldless or threaded fitting is incorrect. Period.

Here's a practical example:

1) Joe Brewer makes a batch of beer. After he's done, he cleans his mash tun, but there's a couple of grain flecks that get hung up around the threaded fitting in the pickup off his false bottom in his mash tun cooler. He does all the usual cleaning. Those flecks are still there.

2) He stores the mash tun in his garage. Before everything's dry, a spore of something nasty like C. Botulinum blows by and ends up landing in the tun. Since there's some moisture, a little bit of grain to eat, and the temperature is comfy, the spore wakes up, clones itself into a small colony, eats that speck up, makes some toxins, and goes back into dormant spore form.

3) Next week, Joe goes to make another batch. He sprays everything down with StarSan before he goes to mash. Since he cleaned up after the last run, it must be OK, right? Nope. StarSan isn't going to affect the toxin. It may or may not kill off the spores.

4) Worst case, there are still some viable spores - they end up in the boil. Boil doesn't phase them. They have a chance to grow again during cooling once the temperature gets below about 125F or so. If Joe doesn't pitch enough starter, the bacteria might be able to grow a little more and make some more toxins.

If you had an all-sanitary system, that harborage point in the mash tun wouldn't exist.

Please describe your sanitary beer homebrewing setup. What is your cleaning procedure?

 

[rockfish42]

Replace C. bot with something aerobic that produces heat-stable toxins and you're housed.

It doesn't exist for normal beer

http://books.google.com/books?id=hB...nepage&q=Bacillus cereus beer brewing&f=false

 

[SharonaZamboni]

Does the Bayou Classic have a flat bottom?

 

[JonW]

Does the Bayou Classic have a flat bottom?

Yes it does.

 

[bdjohns1]

It doesn't exist for normal beer

http://books.google.com/books?id=hB...nepage&q=Bacillus cereus beer brewing&f=false

Try again. Doesn't exist in beer doesn't mean it can't grow in wort. It just won't grow once a certain alcohol content is reached.

 

[bdjohns1]

The point that myself and others here are trying to make is that these types of toxins are VERY rarely if ever seen in home brewing. Mostly because of a combination of factors including the boiling of wort, the low ph, the preservative nature of hops, the presence of alcohol, etc. Not saying it couldn't happen, but the possibility for this type of infection is rare.

To get back to the original topic that fueled this, it's a stretch to make an argument in home brewing for using sanitary fittings to prevent this type of infection. Yes they're nice and don't have all the nooks & crannies for stuff to hide, but when you look at the rest of a brew rig that includes barbed hose fittings, threaded pump fittings, pump head internals, plate chillers, false bottoms, etc. there are just too many other areas that could allow potential nasties to breed. The bottom line is that either welded sanitary fittings or o-ring based weldless fittings are just fine for home brewing and using one over the other is not going to get you out of the risk of an infection.

I'm not arguing that TCs probably aren't overkill for the home brewer. I'm just raising the point that just because there aren't / haven't been significant issues doesn't mean that there couldn't be issues. My original issue was with your statement "no issue" associated with weldless fittings. That statement remains de facto wrong. The risk is low but probably acceptable for a home brewer. On the other hand, if I brought a tank with a weldless fitting on a product contact surface into a process at my plant, I'd get b-tch-slapped by my quality manager. Different world. At work, we have to have processes that have food safety designed in for a couple of reasons. First, I can't guarantee that every person who works on the process knows all of the gory details about how to effectively clean harborage points, etc. Second, we couldn't afford to tear down every single non-sanitary fitting and manually clean it. Designing to 3A standards is a pre-req for being able to truly do CIP. Otherwise, we couldn't have one guy clean 5 1000-gallon vessels, about 600' of process piping, a few dozen valves, and a couple of plate heat exchangers all in about 3 hours, 4 max.

Here's another example of how anal we are at work - most of our equipment framing is square 304 stainless tube (product surfaces have to be 316, but 304's ok for framing). If you want a hook or something, it has to be welded on. No drilling a hole and putting a bolt in. Why? During cleaning, water could get in with some contaminants and the interior of the framework could harbor something. Again, it's a different world. You could do surgery in our cold filling rooms (and the scrub-in procedure is only slightly less rigorous).

If I weren't DIYing TCs onto my kettles, Stout would probably be my first choice, since at a glance, their product line looks the most like everything I work with at my day job.

And just to nitpick - our pHs aren't low. That's why people who make and store starter wort have to go through canning conditions. pH 5 isn't low. A good rule of thumb for a liquid product - if it's not in the refrigerated section and it wasn't sterilized in-process, it's got enough acidity. Fruit juices (pH 2-4), soda (pH 2-3), etc. Even those can spoil after opening.

Please describe your sanitary beer homebrewing setup. What is your cleaning procedure?

Currently under construction, but uses TC fittings everywhere feasible, and most product contact surfaces are stainless. The only fittings that don't satisfy sanitary design criteria would be the hose barbs, weldless fitting on the cooler MLT (which will probably get upgraded to a SS MLT eventually), pump internals, and the NPT fittings on the inlet/outlet of my plate cooler (plates themselves are usually CIPable with sufficient flow). The ball valves aren't CIP-able, but do have TC-fittings. Tank fittings are all TCs, the HERMS coil is stainless with TCs, etc. I even got lucky and scavenged a couple of sanitary RTDs with tri-clamp fittings from a pile of equipment heading off to be junked at work.

Cleaning procedure post brew will be along these lines:

MLT: Remove and dispose of mash solids. Rinse with water until no visible product residue remains. Remove false bottom, tear down fittings, and clean by hand (scrub with cleaner, rinse, star-san, dry. For the MLT itself, hook up to a higher-flow pump, circulate hot PBW solution through MLT (with a sprayball), one of the pumps, HERMS coil. If I'm not getting enough flow through the rest of the tubing, I'll circulate the HERMS coil separately. I'll probably start with ~20 minutes at the concentration on a PBW package and ~140-150F. Then rinse to clean water, a quick star-san circulation, then remove weldless bulkhead and hand-clean around the bulkhead and all threaded product contact surfaces.

BK: Remove and manually clean trub filter / pickup tube separately. Rinse away all visible solids from BK to drain. Reconnect discharge tubing, fill BK with hot water from tap, and flush through tubing and plate until no visible residue. Reverse flow through plate to backflush. Then, circulate with hot PBW solution, sprayball in the tank. Use a booster pump as needed to get needed flow through plate. Rinse and drain, circulate star-san, and drain. If I'm not satisfied that the plate is getting cleaned, I'll bake it.

Tubing/barbs - pull off barbs, toss in bucket with warm PBW solution. Nylon bristle bottle-brush (of appropriate diameter) to get inside first few inches of tubing. Hose barbs scrubbed by hand. Star-san and dry.

Pumps and valves - I'll probably do a tear-down after my first batch to see how the internals of the head fared and decide from there. If the water flushes are sufficient to get to no visible residue on contact surfaces, I might just let them pass with the CIP only. You figure that there will be no shortage of localized turbulence inside the housing, which helps. I did get the 3 piece ball valves so that teardown will be easier for those.

Next brew-day, re-assemble everything dry, do a quick circulation of star-san through then HERMS, MLT, BK, plate, and pumps while the strike water is warming up.


The key takeaway here is that you can use other fittings as long as you understand where they can be problematic.

 

[rockfish42]

Try again. Doesn't exist in beer doesn't mean it can't grow in wort. It just won't grow once a certain alcohol content is reached.

Nothing pathogenic can survive fermentation at a concentration large enough to harm a person given normal homebrewing practices. I'm a biologist.

If you'd like I can go into a long screed tomorrow about it with citations and everything.

 

[bdjohns1]

Nothing pathogenic can survive fermentation at a concentration large enough to harm a person given normal homebrewing practices. I'm a biologist.

If you'd like I can go into a long screed tomorrow about it with citations and everything.

Cite away. If you've got a toxin-producing pathogen, it doesn't have to survive the fermentation. Just it's byproducts.

 

[jcaudill]

I'm not trying to start anything here...but why do you like the thick aluminum clad bottoms? Other than the better heat distribution while heating...which is better but not worth the extra money probably unless you plan on turning on the cooker and taking a nap. I'm not saying you have to baby SS kettles without clad bottoms but I tend not to leave anything cooking by itself unattended unless I'm cooking something in a crock pot or smoker.

I was just curious considering breweries don't use aluminum clad bottoms (usually a current in the boiler), many homebrewers use converted SS kegs that don't have alum clad bottoms...etc.

Stainless is a mega poor conductor - aluminum is good conductor (copper is even better). Simply put the clad bottom disperses heat much better than an unclad bottom when you're direct firing. You don't have to have it - but not only are you wasting gas, you're risking scorching in the flame contact area if you don't keep the contents inside moving.

The reason breweries use all stainless is because most breweries use steam or water jackets on their vessels and therefore heat is already evenly dispersed.

That might bring up the question well why not just use aluminum pots? Because aluminum pots cannot be cleaned with any kind of oxygen-based or caustic cleaners. That's why you never will see aluminum in a commercial brewery and they are a pain for a homebrewer. Hence why you sandwich the aluminum between stainless.

 

[Calichusetts]

@BDJohns

Give it up bro...people are presenting you with facts, common sense, and the statistical fact that there is not even a minority of cases of these infections in beer...your hijacking this thread.

I want to pull the trigger in the next two weeks on a kettle, any good stout reviews out there? Thanks for the info so far

 

[jcaudill]

Megapots (Priced from Northern Brewer)

10 Gallon MegaPot - MegaPots - Brew Kettles - Equipment - Brewing : Northern Brewer

10G – Plain Stock Pot - $132.99 13H x 17W

10G - (weldless w/ Ball Valve and Thermometer) - $219.99 13H x 17W

Pro’s – heavy duty, DIY option available

Con’s – weldless (a con to me), shaped like a can of tuna instead of can of soup – doesn’t fit my rig

Mega Pot offers an 8 gallon (just like B3), but I eliminate it for reasons I listed above. Basically, I find it undersized. The plain 10G Mega Pot is a great option for someone who can weld, or is brave enough to drill a hole in their new $130 kettles. I am neither of those things. The weld less option with thermometer puts you in the normal price range, but as odd as this seems, I really wanted welded fittings. Also, the ratio of height to width was a far cry from what I am used to, so I was a little scared the dramatically increased surface area would screw with my boil off and dead space. Also, the 17” width of these kettles didn’t really work with my existing rig. For someone else, the weld less feature and low height may be the two biggest selling points, but for me, they were the deal breakers. On the flip side, for someone who can weld, the stock pot option is a very inexpensive way to get the features of the 10G Polar Ware kettle I will be talking about later but with a kettle shaped more squat than tall.

Megapots are Update International SPS line pots. For example: http://www.waresdirect.com/products/Restaurant-Supply/Update-International-/60-Qt168824. To be fair: you should add this pot to your review because then the brewer can decide on weldless or welded, and placement of fittings. And: I got three 80qt pots and had fittings welded on way cheaper than I could have bought three megapots for that I would have had to have more welding work done anyway.

 

[bdjohns1]

@BDJohns

Give it up bro...people are presenting you with facts, common sense, and the statistical fact that there is not even a minority of cases of these infections in beer...your hijacking this thread.

I want to pull the trigger in the next two weeks on a kettle, any good stout reviews out there? Thanks for the info so far

Ok, so I apologize for the hijacking. But, like I said, I work in cheese. Still a fermentation process, only with milk and bacterial fermentation as opposed to wort and yeast. When you work with a process that deals with millions of pounds of ingredients daily, the rules are tougher. At work, we have to design for systems that make it as difficult as possible to screw things up.

I still stand by the following points:

1) Wort is not a high-acid product, therefore any time the product is between 45F and 145F, you provide an environment conducive to growth of pathogens. Doesn't matter if you're under aerobic or anaerobic conditions. There are pathogens that can grow in one, the other, or both.
2) Anything with threads and/or other crevices needs to be removed and manually cleaned to ensure that it is free of residues that can harbor growth of pathogens.

If you're brewing just for yourself, the risk is probably acceptable. Like I said, the rules are different in a world where you make and sell millions of pounds of stuff.

Megapots are Update International SPS line pots. For example: http://www.waresdirect.com/products/Restaurant-Supply/Update-International-/60-Qt168824. To be fair: you should add this pot to your review because then the brewer can decide on weldless or welded, and placement of fittings. And: I got three 80qt pots and had fittings welded on way cheaper than I could have bought three megapots for that I would have had to have more welding work done anyway.

Getting back on topic - if I weren't taking the DIY approach, I would get Stout's tanks. I've looked at Blichman stuff over at Northern Brewer, and I can't justify paying more money for a 15-gallon mash tun with false bottom ($461 at NB's price), versus $449 for Stout's 15-gallon which comes with all-welded tri-clamp fittings and already has an additional top fitting for RIMS/HERMS recirculation return. Only thing Stout's lack at that price point is the sight glass.

My HLT and BK are the same pot jcaudill references above (10 gal HLT, 15 gal BK), with sanitary fittings silver-soldered on and the joints buffed smooth. Nice and heavy-duty. I'm going electric, so the triple-ply bottom is overkill, but it's a good pot.

Even if you are going to go with weldless fittings, you could still do a DIY with the Update pot for a far better price than Blichmann (using an MLT as the example):

$120 for the pot (if you've got Amazon Prime, you can get an equivalent one from them for a slightly better price after you figure shipping/tax)
$40 for SS weldless bulkhead with ball valve and hose barb
$36 for 2 more weldless bulkheads (RIMS/HERMS return, thermometer)
$30 for a weldless sight glass kit from Bobby_M
$110 for NB's false bottom (might be able to do cheaper elsewhere)
$30 for a 1/2 NPT thermometer

That's $366, plus a drill bit if you don't have the right one.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Excellent thread!

The discussion on sanitation is great, but maybe we should continue it elsewhere so that the quality of this review isn't affected.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I'll add 1/2 BBL Kegs to the list:

PROS:
-Incredibly durable
-Built in handles
-Height to width ratio optimal for low evaporation rates
-Bottom can be cut out and the top can be used as a triclover center drain
-Much easier to weld due to thicker wall
-May be more aesthetically pleasing to some, especially with mirror polish
-Domed bottom can be used to collect trub

CONS:
-Can be difficult to find
-Legal issues with keeping kegs for deposit
-Heavy
-Hard to drill
-May not be aesthetically pleasing to some

 

[dog_gone]

Thanks, OP. This discussion is helping me decide on which direction I should go for a 20-25 gallon kettle for BIAB. I also appreciate the direct links to products discussed that are disbersed throughout this thread.

Heck, at the price of the Update International, Concord and Bayou Classic pots, I might just go for a 3-vessel system.

 

[SpikeBrewing]

We'd like to see a Spike Brewing review in here too.....

 

[murphyfields]

OK, noob question. What are everyone's thoughts on this 2-weld kettle:

http://www.homebrewing.org/2-WELD-9-Gallon-Stainless-Steel-Brew-Pot-_p_1684.html

from homebrewing.org/adventures in homebrewing?

Price is nice, will not compare with one of the super high-end pots, but how is this for the casual brewer?

Also, can I get the benefits of sandwiched aluminum by placing an aluminum plate under the SS kettle?

Thanks

 

[swackattack]

Clad bottoms are really not useful in brewing, especially AG as there is no extract to scorch at bottom. Just take longer to heat up.

That pot is fine

 

[352brewery]

I have 3 Blichmann 10 gallon kettles and I have nothing but good things to say about them. The mash tun false bottom works really well. I've brewed 40 all-grain batches and have never had a stuck sparge. The sight glasses are really easy to clean, the weldless fittings are great. Everything about these kettles is quality.

When it came time to move up to a 10 gallon setup, I looked at Polarware and Bayou. It seemed like I could save a few dollars and go with something else. In fact, I was convinced that I was going to buy the Bayou kettles because they were so much cheaper. But every time I brewed with my Blichmanns I would change my mind.

I ended up buying Blichmann again. I now have a 15 gallon mash tun and boil kettle.

The bottom line is it's hard for me to find fault in these kettles.

 

[mariojr]

Like quoted below, your boil off should not increase because of the volume of liquid increases. So the rate should be equivalent for both batch sizes regardless. The only thing that would affect the rate in the same pot would be time of boil, how vigorous the boil and environmental factors (i.e humidity). My two cents.

I haven't found that to be the case, I have both a 10 gallon kettle and a 15.5 gallon keggle. For your statement to be true, you have to assume that the boiloff rate per hour would be twice at much for 10 gallons as it would be for 5. That hasn't been my experience. While a 10 gallon batch may boil off more hour than a 5 gallon batch, it's not significantly more.

Good review, btw.

 

[therev71]

Im looking into upgrading from my 5 gallon pot to an 8. I brew on my stove top (electric) I mostly brew 5 gallon batches (18.5L) and I probably wont brew more then that for now.

Should I go with an 8 gallon or a 10?

 

[jcaudill]

Im looking into upgrading from my 5 gallon pot to an 8. I brew on my stove top (electric) I mostly brew 5 gallon batches (18.5L) and I probably wont brew more then that for now.

Should I go with an 8 gallon or a 10?

As big as you can afford. Having extra room in a kettle is never a bad thing.