3bbl wiring diagram

[augiedoggy]

Hello, I'm hoping someone might have or be able to assist me in acquiring a 3 bbl wiring diagram like the one linked below in higher resolution... I intend on having 4 5500w elements in the boil and 4 in the HLT and the wiring will be identical for each separate electrical box except im going to install a float switch for the HLT I do intend on using din breakers for each element as well as contactors and separate SSR's I dont need the wiring for pids as that is all going to be in a separat low voltage panel using brucontrol.

I dont really need the indicator lights for each element below.

I am also going to be using a 240v rims.

I know how to wire it but I know nothing of the programs that draw the diagrams and I want something professional looking to follow and submit to the electrical inspector.

 

[doug293cz]

I'd recommend keeping the individual element firing LED's, as they are a quick indicator of SSR failures. In a system like this it would be difficult to notice an SSR failure otherwise.

Some questions:

• How do you plan to control the RIMS? Separate control panel, or integrated into either the boil or HLT panel? Will it have it's own power feed from the main panel?
• Do you want the float switch hard wired in the SSR control signal loop, or just as a sense switch that allows software interlock for low liquid level?
• You going to stick with the P-J recommended 60A feeds, or cut it down to 50A feeds?
• Existing drawing shows 120V contactor coils, but if you use 240V coils, there would be no reason to bring a neutral into the panels. Would save a little money on copper.

Brew on

 

[augiedoggy]

True as far as the indicators. I currently use my ampmeter to monitor draw therfore whether things are all running correctly but the indicators would be easier.

I plan on incorporating the rims into the boil kettle powerbox. since my rims only draws about 7-8 amps I can either use a 60a spa panel to run 2 5500w elements along with the rims or get another spa panel for the rims all together if it would be wiser.

I would like the floatswitch to be wired to interrupt the ssr control voltage as I currently do with my home setup.

I plan on using 50A spa panel feeds.

I am actually hoping to use 24v DC coil contactors so I can keep everything coming out of my separate control panel DC in nature.

Thanks,

 

[stevehaun]

Some unsolicited thoughts:

My friend owns a 3 barrel brewery. He powers it with three 5500 watt elements running full blast. A very nice boil with a reasonable evaporation rate. Each element has a 30 amp gfi breaker and a wall switch. Simple.

I am not sure a RIMS will be all that effective with a 3 barrel batch size. I used a HERMS (9000 watts in 15 gallon HLT and 25 foot, 5/8" OD coil) on a 1 barrel system. It could readily maintain temps but could not raise them to any useful degree. It basically comes down to flow rate relative to the thermal mass of the mash. For what it is worth, larger mashes (> 1 barrel) do not lose much temperature over the course of an hour.

Good luck!

 

[augiedoggy]

Well you may be right about the rims.. I have purchased 2 1800w 36" long elements and was going to try one first but if I do the math it wont be powerful enough to do much. (I was going by my experience with 11 gallon brews in which many people said the 1800w wouldnt do much but I can step mash pretty good with it there... Both elements will help but even at 3 gpm flow if will only cycle 60 gallons of mash 3 times in an hr... and much of the conversion is already done in 20 mins.

as far as the elements I have been debating on going 3 or 4... I planned on four in the hlt just for the speed aspect and figured 4 would be better in the BK as well even if I dial down the percentage at full boil and have less buildup to clean from the elements than I would at 100% power.

Thanks for the insight!

 

[pbrennan10]

Sorry for the 2 year bump but i have something kinda similar and it's not worth starting a new thread because it's a long shot.

I have a 24x24x8 stainless enclosure i'm looking to do a fairly typical 50a PID (DSPR300 hlt, bk & DSPR320 mt) based back-to-back capable setup. The kicker is i'd like to set it up with 2 additional 50 amp plugs that'll feed 4 elements controlled by contactors and the DSPR300's aux outputs, with each additional 50 amp input providing 1 additional hlt and bk element.

I keep marking up diagrams like the above but generally just end up with a mess.

I can use autocad but starting from scratch seems daunting so if anyone has a dwg or dxf in the ballpark that'd be a huge help.

I'd also like to figure out a way to have a RIMS element with 120v 1375w at the base setup and have it easily changeable to 240v 5500w (prob from the BK) but i'm still not sure if that's feasible or smart.

Any advice or insults appreciated.

 

[Jbrown57]

AutoCad can import pdf files
Might get you to a good starting point.
Cheers.
Jb

 

[augiedoggy]

I just wanted to chime in and follow up on my last post... I am using both 1800w cartridge elements in my 3bbl brewhouse rims along with 4 5500w elements in each kettle. All this runs well on 2 gfci 60a circuits and the rims nets me a 5 degree rise per pass at 5gpm

Unfortunately I did not use actual schematics when I built my panel I just wired it up as It made sense to me.. I wish I had used schematics because as time goes on I dont want to mistake the wrong color wire for the wrong thing when doing repairs or updates...

 

[processhead]

Drawings are always helpful, but maybe less so for the designer/builder who is usually very familiar with how everything went together.

Drawings are invaluable to the next owner of the system who has to fix or modify something after you have moved on to something else or are just taking that long dirt-nap.

I think good drawings and documentation would ultimately add resale/value to your brewery.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'd recommend keeping the individual element firing LED's, as they are a quick indicator of SSR failures. In a system like this it would be difficult to notice an SSR failure otherwise.

• Would save a little money on copper.

Brew on

Also just wanted to chime in on how I addressed this valuable point,
I use 2 ammeters one for each circuit, which does a good job of telling me when something on on that shouldnt be or not on that should..
you can see them below in the screenshot.

 

[augiedoggy]

heres a newer photo showing the 15 amps or so my 2 rims elements draw. when the rims is active my HLT kicks down to 3 elements from 4. which is why the first photo shows an uneven amp draw between the two feeds.

 

[pbrennan10]

Yowza that's impressive.

After balking a bit i've decided to just start drawing and work my way through it.. it'll make it that much easier to build after i spend time thinking through everything, and like processhead said i'll have it to go with the system.

Trying to draw it to scale and positioning in the panel so that I can be sure the layout will work. I suspect when the wiring starts getting filled in that is going to be difficult to do. Attached is what I currently have in CAD which already has issues, but i'll have something to day dream about at work tomorrow.

The best news is I met some P&ID guys that'll QAQC it for me after i give it a go.

 

[pbrennan10]

Got back at it some. Slow goins but enjoying the struggle. Thinking about the best place to put terminal blocks. I thought the box would have plenty of room so ordered a 12 pack and used 63a contactors everywhere (the box doesn't have plenty of room).

 

[augiedoggy]

Got back at it some. Slow goins but enjoying the struggle. Thinking about the best place to put terminal blocks. I thought the box would have plenty of room so ordered a 12 pack and used 63a contactors everywhere (the box doesn't have plenty of room).

why so many relays? you know you can put 2 elements on each 63a relay and simplify things right? I would look at sizing them to better suit the load, you will find you have more room. I ended up rearranging my panel multple times and even replaced the contactors with allen bradley ones later.. my panel is like 20 x36 and still too small.

 

[pbrennan10]

I didn't see how to get that to work if and have each additional input provide 1 hlt and 1 bk element. I also think I would like the individual control. Eg if i end up boiling a 2.5bbl batch it may be best to have 1 full on element and 1 ssr'd at xx percent.

 

[augiedoggy]

I didn't see how to get that to work if and have each additional input provide 1 hlt and 1 bk element. I also think I would like the individual control. Eg if i end up boiling a 2.5bbl batch it may be best to have 1 full on element and 1 ssr'd at xx percent.

I was under the impression your building a panel for a larger system with more than one element in each kettle? if thats the case then it is better to control and have the pid actually controlling temp for all the elements together for each kettle vs having an element on full blast and one pulsing at partial heat output controlled by the controller. You can do this and still possibly have the ability to disable one or more while you need to have another firing like I had to do with my rims and hlt..

 

[pbrennan10]

I was under the impression your building a panel for a larger system with more than one element in each kettle? if thats the case then it is better to control and have the pid actually controlling temp for all the elements together for each kettle vs having an element on full blast and one pulsing at partial heat output controlled by the controller. You can do this and still possibly have the ability to disable one or more while you need to have another firing like I had to do with my rims and hlt..

Yes I have 7 elements (3 hlt, 3 bk, 1rims).

Im planning to use the aux relays on the dspr300 to control the second two elements with an on/off/auto setup.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes I have 7 elements (3 hlt, 3 bk, 1rims).

Im planning to use the aux relays on the dspr300 to control the second two elements with an on/off/auto setup.

The aux relays wont work for controlling temps they only do on and off.. at the end of the day I think you will find your kind of over complicating a fairly simple task with no benefit at all.. The relay element will either be full on or full off and you dont want that for temp control. Or any type of smooth boil control. If you control the actual output of the elements evenly you will have less issues with buildup on the elements and very likely wasting less power.

 

[pbrennan10]

Hm i will think on it. My original thoughts were that you don't need 3 elements for temp control so i would save myself 4 SSRs. I think i got the idea because auber used it that way in the dspr 3000 manual so maybe it's a sales pitch.

 

[augiedoggy]

Well you can still control then both with a 60a ssr but honestly ssrs are very cheap.. you can get a rebranded MGR (same as auber sells) for $5 each shipped under brands like berme.

you also still should consider ssrs because the mechanical relays controlling the coils for the contactors cannot reliably be turn on and off multiple times in a short amount of time or the contacts will fail in the ezboil and or contactor. The contactors should be staying on and the ssr doing the actual turning the element on and off to control heat.

 

[muhteeus]

Also just wanted to chime in on how I addressed this valuable point,
I use 2 ammeters one for each circuit, which does a good job of telling me when something on on that shouldnt be or not on that should..
you can see them below in the screenshot.View attachment 642108

Sorry to hijack. What are you using for ammeters? How are they wired?

 

[augiedoggy]

Sorry to hijack. What are you using for ammeters? How are they wired?

I am not able to remember and they are at the brewery but I want to say it was a CR magnetics brand.. Theres 2 50 amp models although technically I have 2 60amp feeds. there directions on wiring them in brucontrol I believe as a 0-5v sensor.

 

[pbrennan10]

Well you can still control then both with a 60a ssr but honestly ssrs are very cheap.. you can get a rebranded MGR (same as auber sells) for $5 each shipped under brands like berme.

you also still should consider ssrs because the mechanical relays controlling the coils for the contactors cannot reliably be turn on and off multiple times in a short amount of time or the contacts will fail in the ezboil and or contactor. The contactors should be staying on and the ssr doing the actual turning the element on and off to control heat.

There's a hysterisis setting so 3 elements would ramp to say 1 degree of target, kick off, then one would maintain.

I def understand adding SSRs is not a huge deal and tried and true, just want to be clear on the thought process.

 

[pbrennan10]

@augiedoggy Do you have an estimate of how many watts you boil with? I see the guy above uses 16.5k, but has a hard on/off setup.

 

[augiedoggy]

@augiedoggy Do you have an estimate of how many watts you boil with? I see the guy above uses 16.5k, but has a hard on/off setup.

It all depends on how many gallons of wort I have and how much boiloff I want. usually anywhere from 70 to 85% power with 4 5500w elements. I normally bring it up to 190 with full power then add a anti foam over agent and hold it there till the sparge is done and then bring to a boil.

 

[pbrennan10]

I think i'm gonna go 4 elements in the BK and 2 in the HLT, heat times work starting with 120f water and i could use bk to heat first strike of the day. Really screws up symmetry of control panel front though. Was going to just swing the 3 and 3 by using different wattage elements but it doesn't help as much as i'd hoped.