3 Prong 240v outlet question

[TNugent]

I know I've seen this covered several times and didn't think twice about it until I actually went and looked at the outlet for my dryer and realized it pertained to me. I am planning on going electric with a 10 gallon capable RIMS or HERMS setup and was planning on using this outlet for power.

I'm pretty sure I know the answer is that I shouldn't use this as I won't be able to run a GFCI on it but for the life of me I can't find written confirmation of that. IT's a bit of a big deal for me as our basement is fully finished with no access to run new wiring and my breaker box is fully populated meaning the electrician costs just went up considerably. Are there any options for using this but then grounding through an alternative ground or something that I could rig up to be safe?

 

[neild5]

You can run a GFCI on this type of plug. It is not as preferable as a 4 wire outlet but still doable. The GFCI measures the current on the 2 hots and the neutral and compares them, it trips if it not balanced as that means there is a fault to ground.

 

[jeffmeh]

It looks like a NEMA 10-30 receptacle. If it's wired properly, it has H-H-N. The first thing to do is confirm that you really have 3 conductors from the breaker panel to the receptacle. If you have 4, you could possibly just change the receptacle, and get H-H-N-G, which would be optimal. That said, a GFCI spa panel would provide a solution in either case.

 

[TNugent]

Thanks everyone. I will check out the wiring and then look into a spa panel depending on what I find. I'm sure the electrical was installed in the late 60s so it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't up to current code.

 

[jeffmeh]

Thanks everyone. I will check out the wiring and then look into a spa panel depending on what I find. I'm sure the electrical was installed in the late 60s so it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't up to current code.

Also check the gauge of the existing wire. It should be at least 10awg.

 

[MercMan]

You can install a in-line GFI in your power cable.

 

[P-J]

I suggest that you set up your Spa Panel <click it> this way:

Hope this helps you.

P-J

Edit: Adding a 4 wire 30A input.

 

[TNugent]

Thanks again everyone for the tips. I opened up the outlet and saw this....

 

[jeffmeh]

That looks like 4 conductors including the bare ground. Is that correct? If so, that is great news, as you can replace the receptacle with a NEMA 14-30 and have a true ground. Then, you would wire a 4 in, 4 out configuration in the spa panel. P-J has a spa panel photo-diagram for that too, I believe.

 

[TNugent]

Yes, it looks like 4 conductor to me as well with the ground being grounded to the box. I thought that was good news too. We just bought a new clothes dryer a month ago or so, too bad I didn't have this plan in my head then. Now I suppose I'll have to replace the cord on the dryer but that's not a big deal.

At least now I can continue my planning and start acquiring parts.

Thanks again to everyone. I've only been here a short while and this was my first post. You guys have already saved me enough time and money that I figured I might as well sign up and become a supporting member right away.

 

[MercMan]

Before you spend money and time wiring up a spa panel look at one of these.
http://www.gfcistore.com/30-amp-inline-gfcis.html

You can wire P/N PGFI-2301N in line with your power cord & not change your outlet or dryer power plug. The only limitation is you won't be able to run any 120V accessories - everything has to be 240V because any current to ground will trip the GFI.

 

[P-J]

That looks like 4 conductors including the bare ground. Is that correct? If so, that is great news, as you can replace the receptacle with a NEMA 14-30 and have a true ground. Then, you would wire a 4 in, 4 out configuration in the spa panel. P-J has a spa panel photo-diagram for that too, I believe.

I just added it to post #6 above.

 

[nealm]

PJ
Do I understand correctly that the 50 amp breaker in the spa panel is only used for its GFCI properties and that one is depending on the 30 amp breaker in the main box for over current. As such can the wiring from the box all the way through the control panel then only # 10.

I suggest that you set up your Spa Panel <click it> this way: Hope this helps you. P-J Edit: Adding a 4 wire 30A input.

 

[P-J]

PJ
Do I understand correctly that the 50 amp breaker in the spa panel is only used for its GFCI properties and that one is depending on the 30 amp breaker in the main box for over current. As such can the wiring from the box all the way through the control panel then only # 10.

Yes, that is correct.

P-J

 

[jeffmeh]

It would be a good idea to label the spa panel with something like "Wired for 30a only" if you use 10 AWG with a higher-rated panel.

 

[TNugent]

Plan of action now is to....

1)Get a NEMA 14-30 receptacle in there as well as a new cord for my clothes dryer.
2)Purchase this Spa Panel and wire per P-J's instructions above. Home Depot Link - http://thd.co/1bzckvM
3) Build my own control Box using a BCS-460 and the following P-J diagram....

Only changes I want to make, first one seems simple in my head, second one not so much.

A) I plan on using a 5500w 240v element running off of 120v for my RIMS so I'll need to modify the RIMS circuit accordingly.
B) I would love to have 2 Key'd switches. The first, when turned on will power up the BCS-460 but wouldn't allow any pumps or heating elements to have power and then the second switch would allow full functionality. This way I could turn on the system, make changes to the programming, etc but have no worries of burning out any elements or anything, then when I'm ready to brew I turn the second key.

 

[TNugent]

Design Update: Based on the RIMS tube I just ordered I need to change plans on the heater for it. I was going to just get 3 of the Camco Ripple 5500w elements and use the same ones throughout the brewery. So now I may just go with a 2000w 240v straight element instead. Not sure if that would be better/worse/not much different than a 120v element or a 5500w 240v element running at only 120v.

Would help if I mentioned that the RIMS tube I ordered was the one from brewhardware.com.

Open to suggestions while I continue to research that piece.

 

[Beeskneesbrew]

Tnugent...that is the very same diagram I just completed! I used 4500's in the kettles though.

 

[TNugent]

Tnugent...that is the very same diagram I just completed! I used 4500's in the kettles though.

I'm looking at downsizing elements as well since I will be running this off of 30amps instead of 50. Since a 5500w element uses nearly 23amps by itself I need to run my RIMS heater as well as 1 Chugger pump at the same time and stay under 30amps.

HLT/BK Options
5500w @ 240v = 22.9a
4500w @ 240v = 18.74a

RIMS Options
2000w @ 240v = 8.3a
4500w/240v @ 120v = 9.4a and 1125w effective

Chugger Pump = 1.4a

Seems like having the 5500w and the 2000w running at the same time as the Chugger pump would give me troubles and is out.

I think going with the 4500's and the 2000w is probably the best idea but still putting me at ~28.44a is a little closer than I would like to be. Maybe I can find a 1500w for the RIMS....

 

[Beeskneesbrew]

Here is a peek at the control panel

 

[TNugent]

Here is a peek at the control panel

That looks very nicely done. Great job on both the outside and inside.

 

[TNugent]

Here is a peek at the control panel
View attachment 155289



View attachment 155290

I would love some closer-ups of the inside of that panel and/or higher rez pics if you have any.

Also, do you know (or P-J if you see this), did I get the wrong style 3 way switches to use with the P-J diagram above? It's listed as a 3 way, 2 NO Contact switch. http://www.ebrewsupply.com/indicators-switches/3-way-1-no-contact-switch.html

 

[TNugent]

I would love some closer-ups of the inside of that panel and/or higher rez pics if you have any.

Also, do you know (or P-J if you see this), did I get the wrong style 3 way switches to use with the P-J diagram above? It's listed as a 3 way, 2 NO Contact switch. http://www.ebrewsupply.com/indicators-switches/3-way-1-no-contact-switch.html

In attempt to answer my own question I found this thread. Going to read it again in the morning but I think I'm starting to understand.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/bcs-460-3-elements-2-pumps-288207/