220v from two 110v outlets

[l8nightcaffeine]

Maybe this is old news. But it surprised me when I came across it. I've been looking into E-brewing but living in apartments the only access to 220v would be to unplug the stove.

looking around a bit I found http://www.quick220.com/ which uses two out of phase outlets to create 220v - 240v. More importantly it is UL certified. I'm unclear on if it has GFI, but it has a breaker...that if is a standard breaker could be swapped out to allow for GFI. Unfortunately the price tag is a bit absurd..

I found these guys, that created their own with only 3 spdt relays.

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1023&start=30

Skeptical that it was really that simple I followed the Nissan leaf link were someone found the patent http://www.google.com/patents/US5977658. The product only uses a single relay (which is really all that's required...but I liked the idea of some redundancy on the the page that i linked)

Additionally for our purposes we have ground/neutral/110/110 so a GFI breaker could also be hooked up.

So although none of the home-made stuff is actually UL certified (like sticking a water heater element in a pot)...In concept it is proven and deemed safe.

thought I would share this surprising find.

 

[Brumateur]

It's not simple it's extremely simple. You don't need even a relay. Just two 120V lives connected to different phases.

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

It seems easy enough, but the key is getting two out of phase 120vs, you may have to snake some extension cord around the apartment to find the other phase. Also if you brew in the kitchen then the outlets are probably GFI protected which isn't going to play nice with this kind of setup. If you can easily unplug the stove that would be the way to go especially if its four wire 60amp.

Its certainly possible and given your circumstances may be the best option, but there's a reason alot of folks here opt for adapting existing 220 outlets or running new dedicated lines over this method. Also you could always run two 120v elements from separate circuits and have them fire from one PID.

 

[Minbari]

aside from all the electricians that will say it is unsafe, illegal and against code.

It is REALLY easy to do. most (if not all) homes in the US are on a center tapped 240volt transformer. some outputs get the top half, some get the bottom half. your oven, dryer, etc get the whole output (why they are 240 volt).

so if you have two outlets on opposite sides of the transformer, you can run just the "HOT" wires in series for 240 volts. you just have to make sure that you are not exceeding the outlet, the breaker, or the wires in the walls. if you have two 15 amp outlets, then you have 15 amps of current for 240 volts. (its in series remember)

as for thier product, I dont see what they bring to the table that makes it cost $250. I made a 240 volt outlet out of an electrical box, socket and two extension cords for about $30. if you wanted to add a GFCI to the mix it would cost a little more, but not $200 more.

 

[Bobby_M]

The reason you'd be after 240 volts is to get more power for your heating element but there are not that many 240 watt elements that are going to keep you under 15 amps anyway. Well, let me say it this way. If you have two 15 amps circuits, you can use two elements each at 1500 watts or you can use a single 3000 watt/240 v element with a kludged wiring situation.

 

[kevreh]

Maybe this is old news. But it surprised me when I came across it. I've been looking into E-brewing but living in apartments the only access to 220v would be to unplug the stove.....

Do you have a clothes dryer? May be easier to access. The problem with pulling 110v from two circuits is that you have to make sure each circuit is being used for other things at the same time. If someone turns on a microwave or hairdryer when you brew that will likely be enough to trip the breaker.

 

[l8nightcaffeine]

Thanks for the replies guys! I agree it has limited use, since a (max) of 20amps of 220v is not a whole lot.

You could still use the larger 5000watt heating elements you would just need some phase angle pid. (maybe a regular ssr pid would even work??).

It has limited use, but still seemed cool if you want to use a specific heating element like the 100% stainless one just posted but want more than 1/4 power.

 

[mikescooling]

I'm a new apartment brewer. I pulled the panel and added a 30amp 240v breaker. Then at the end of the brew day, I take the breaker out and put it all back together. It takes about 5min. But you need to be comfortable working in the panel.

 

[Brumateur]

I'm a new apartment brewer. I pulled the panel and added a 30amp 240v breaker. Then at the end of the brew day, I take the breaker out and put it all back together.

I wouldn't do it. Yes you are replaced a breaker to handle 30A but wiring still is for 15Amp. Yes National Electrical Code is very conservative so most likely your 15A rated wiring will handle 22A load with no issues, but you are close to edje. End if something bad happened no one insurance company will cover your losses.

 

[mikescooling]

I wouldn't do it. Yes you are replaced a breaker to handle 30A but wiring still is for 15Amp. Yes National Electrical Code is very conservative so most likely your 15A rated wiring will handle 22A load with no issues, but you are close to edje. End if something bad happened no one insurance company will cover your losses.

I'm running my own 30amp cable.
And I'm not changing existing breakers or using them in anyway. I'm just clipping in my 30amp breaker for a few hours. That way I don't change the building in any way, (not even break out the slots for the 2 pole breaker).
Think of it as a welding cord with a 30amp breaker on the end. I'm not saying doing this in anyway is a good, or safe idea. But if you're comfortable, AKA have the skills to work in a panel, it is an option.

 

[nhamilto40]

Here is how its done. You need two 120V circuits on opposite sides of your 240v center tapped supply.
15A @ 240V = 3.6kw
20A @ 240V = 4.8kw

Use wire to suit your breakers. 14 = 15A, 12 = 20A

Code doesn't apply to anything past the receptacle. After that point its up to the end user.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm a new apartment brewer. I pulled the panel and added a 30amp 240v breaker. Then at the end of the brew day, I take the breaker out and put it all back together. It takes about 5min. But you need to be comfortable working in the panel.

This reminds me of the day the crew came to sand/buff my new wood floor. One of the guys came up to me holding the end of an extension cord with bare wires and said "Where's your panel?". I said "Give me that." and put a 240 v plug on it. I made sure I got it back at the end of the day.

 

[BBBF]

Here is how its done. You need two 120V circuits on opposite sides of your 240v center tapped supply.
15A @ 240V = 3.6kw
20A @ 240V = 4.8kw

Use wire to suit your breakers. 14 = 15A, 12 = 20A

Code doesn't apply to anything past the receptacle. After that point its up to the end user.

So... I can use this diagram and build something similar to the converter in the original post, for a lot less?

My electric brewery was designed around two dedicated, 120V/20a outlets. It works and I am not looking to redesign it, but I have an apple crusher that's 240V and I would like to be able to use it.

How do I find out if my dedicated outlets are in different phases or not?

 

[ajdelange]

Stick one probe of an AC voltmeter in the wide flat slot in one of the outlets and the other in the narrower slot. Check the voltage. Assume for the moment it is 120V. Now remove the probe from the wide slot and stick it in the narrow slot of the other outlet (use an extension cord to bring the other outlet close to the one you are next to if necessary). You will read 0 volts if the outlets are on the same phase and double or sqrt(3) times the first reading (240 V or 208 V) if they are on different phases. In most homes it will be double. In office, apartment or other commercial buildings it's likely to be 208.

 

[BBBF]

Thanks. I tested the outlets and they are the same phase. I assume if someone knows what they are doing, it would be an easy task to open the breaker and change one of the phases.

 

[ajdelange]

They may be wired to the same breaker in which case there isn't much you can do except find another outlet on the other phase. Inside your panel there are two parallel bars that run from top to bottom, one for each phase. The breakers are installed by pushing them into the panel such that two adjacent normal size breakers will contact different phases and a two pole breaker, which is double width, will have one pole in contact with each. It is indeed a pretty simple matter to switch a breaker from one phase to the other. It can be done by swapping the breaker you want to switch with one adjacent to it.

However, I do not advocate doing this, or anything in your panel, unless you know what you are doing. Another thing to think about is whether your jurisdiction even allows you to work in your panel. In blue states, especially in the cities, it is usually prohibited and I see you are in Chicago.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Curious on one thing here. What size batches are you doing, larger than 10 gallon? A 120 volt element works fine up to 10 gallons. I use a 5K 220v element in my 15 gallon kettle and never raise the setting over 50% power and it's boils in about 12 minutes. This just seems to be over complicating the process for the sake of running 220.

If you want to use the cool SS element, run it at 110/120v and you effectively have 2500watt element. You can always change to 220 later but you will find it's not worth the effort in an apartment.

 

[Minbari]

Its 4x less power, not half. Soo a 220 vac 5kw element would be 1250w at 120vac.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Mea culpa, I just took the first google result and used it. I thought everything on the internet was true?

A far easier method would be to just attach a stove plug to your brew setup and plug/unplug as needed. Besides, gives your wife/gf a chance to clean under the stove. In my first apartment I only used the stove for storing dirty dishes anyway.

 

[podz]

Just be sure that if you use anything with a timer or a clock that it's herz range is 50-60. You run 50hz only clock on 60hz electricity, you'll gain 10 minutes every hour. And you'll lose 10 minutes every hour if you run a 60hz only clock on 50hz electricity.

Nobody will probably run into that case, but it is worth noting before you decide to order some fancy German-made timer control panel or something that isn't intended for the US market.