2-vessel for 5 and 10 gallon batches

[LazyPasta]

I am interested in building a 2-vessel system to reduce the amount of equipment and also reduce the amount of time in my brew day. I was about to pull the trigger on High Gravity's Wort Hog 10 gallon 2-vessel system (https://www.highgravitybrew.com/sto...ric-Wort-Hog-10-gallon-2-Vessel-445p10094.htm) but I realized that this may not be compatible with 5 gallon batches. This system splits the total volume of water between the brew kettle and the mash tun, and for some 5 gal batches the boil coil would not be submerged in the kettle. The reality is I will be mostly doing 5 gallon batches, so I want that capability.

My first thought was to install a rims tube on the Mash tun so that when I'm only doing 5 gallon batches, I will circulate within the mash tun using the rims tube and not have to worry about the boil coil at all. When doing 10 gallon batches, I'll have enough water volume to circulate between the two vessels and incorporate the boil coil. The rims tube wouldn't be needed. Dave at High Gravity said that he also pours a small amount of cold water on top of his drained grains to somewhat sparge a little more sugar out of the mash tun. While very high efficiency isn't required for me, if something simple like that helps, I'd be willing to give it a try. Maybe mashing in with your full volume of water minus 1 gallon - then when the 60 minute recirculating mash is done, heat the 1 gallon fresh water in the brew kettle and add to the top of the mash. Then as you are draining your mash tun to the kettle, the last bit of water to go through the grains would be more diluted.

I am looking for insight for how else this may be done, and what others are doing. It seems that if I go my route, I will have two different brewing routines for different batch sizes. Maybe this 2-vessel system isn't the most effective for both 5 and 10 gallon batches? Maybe there is a different route altogether. I would prefer not to use a single vessel BIAB (I'm trying to get away from lifting dripping bags around), and I don't want the longer brew day associated with 3 vessels and fly sparging.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Tricerahops220]

I'm sorry I can't provide any insight to your issue however, I too am considering a system just like the one you have here. I never even considered the issue you brought up about running a 5 gallon batch in those kettles and not covering the coil. I am not sure what the kettle losses are on a Blichmann but if you don't care about efficiencies maybe the solution would be to brew just enough beer (almost like roughly a 7 gallon batch) to cover the coil and dump whatever is left. I'm sure I will get roasted for that thought though.

The High Gravity 2-vessel system you posted is really clean looking especially with those Blichmann kettles. Interested to hear what others have to say about this.

 

[CodeSection]

I have a 20G Spike two vessel system. Today, when I measured where the top of heating element sat, it appeared to be at the three gallon mark. Spike's 20G kettle are 17.7" wide and their 15G kettles are 15.8" wide ~ so about 2" smaller. One would expect the three gallon mark to be higher in their 15G kettle and thus higher than the heating element.

I have no idea of your other equipment and what potential waste there will be, but I would think: 1) your starting water volume for a five gallon batch would be close to 7.25-7.5G or so depending upon grain bill, waste, etc. and 2) if you find you have too much wort at the end of the boil, you can boil slightly longer to boil off extra water. After a few batches you will be able to dial in your equipment.

While you may have to watch your recirculating a little closer with a five gallon batch as compared to a 10G batch, I believe it can be achieved.

If you are unsure, perhaps something like a hot stick that @Bobby_M sells might work....https://www.brewhardware.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=hot+stick The hot stick might be able to sit lower in the kettle. If so, then you only need to add a TC cap to your purchase.

Below is my system.

 

[LazyPasta]

Thanks Tricerahops, I did think about just making a larger batch but I came to the conclusion that dumping a those couple of gallons would break my soul. That would definitely work though. I figured that even though it's an extra cost, the RIMS tube (or Dave at High Gravity recommends the RIMS Rocket) would eliminate this heartache altogether. The boil coil would only be used for boiling the wort, and getting strike water to temperature. Once I mash in, I unplug the boil coil, plug in the RIMS element on the mash tun and recirculate within the mash tun. After the mash, I drain to the kettle and perhaps sparge with a small amount of water. Unplug the RIMS element, plug in the boil coil and I'm on my merry way. A part of me just thinks that I'm missing something and I'm wasting money. However, if this is what it takes to have a 2-vessel system and easily do 5 and 10 gallon batches, I'm in!

CodeSection, do you like your 2-vessel system? It looks great. Anything you would change if you had to do it again? High Gravity's default vessels for the 10 gallon system is 15 gallon Blichmann Boilermaker G2's. They have a 16" diameter and 0.19 gallon dead space. The part that kills is the boil coil, which on Blichmann's site says needs a minimum of 4 gallons of water at all times to operate. So if we take the 4 gallons on the kettle side, and the remaining 3 or 4 gallons into the mash tun for the grains, we really wouldn't have enough water to have an inch or two above the grain bed. This system also has a Blichmann autosparge, so it needs to float in the mash tun. I have considered other kettle element solutions, but would certainly want the ultra low watt density that the boil coil has. I've also looked at other electric kettles such as SS Brewtech's. It appears their halo element sits very low in the kettle, which may help my cause. However, I don't see anywhere that says what the minimum amount of water is.

 

[Genuine]

Here's my 2 Vessel system that's been working great for me the past few years.

That's an earlier picture before i added the port to recirculate to the top of the mash tun.

Here's a video of myself brewing on it.

 

[CodeSection]

@LazyPasta, when I first started researching going electric, I knew I would probably never go back to making five gallon batches but wanted the possibility if needed. I, too, watched Dave's educational/marketing videos which gave me a lot of information. I spoke with Dave as well. He is a great guy. At one time I thought of buying his Wort Hog EBC-130 with the extra features of another pump switch, longer temperature probe and long power supply. The two items I asked about and wasn't provided was a listing of his parts and a picture of the inside of the controller. My guess is that everything in the unit was a tight fit and there would be no room if I wanted to someday expand it. Also, I wanted extra circuit breakers.

I ended up buying a custom built controller from Auber Instruments. Some in HBT can't stand Auber Ins but I found they built a solid unit with the extra safety features like independent circuit breakers for the heater and each pump. Some on this forum may say those features are unnecessary or redundant since the controller is already plugged into a 240v GFCI breaker. Never-the-less, I wanted those features in my controller along with the ability to expand.

As you can see, I bought custom kettles from Spike Brewing. I use a Blichmann auto-sparge unit in the MT. I use Spike's valves and quick connect fittings. There is nothing I would do differently if I had to do it all over again.

It sounds like you will be making five gallon batches more than 10G batches. I would select a kettle manufacture that will allow this using just a two kettle k-rim system. I'm trying to visualize you using a RIMS tube as you described it and all I can think of are the words "clumsy and messy". I very easily may not understand the process you are describing. I wonder if you would need to change the power settings on the controller every time when you go going from a larger container (BK) to a smaller container (RIMS tube) to avoid scorching? I wonder if there is an extra layer of electrical shock risk when removing the power supply lines back and forth between the BK and Rims tube? Maybe others on this site could chime in and address those two items.

I would think having one brewing routine/process is highly desirable. Therefore, if Blichmann kettles do not accomplish that when trying to brew both five gallon or 10g brews, select another manufacturer or choose between what size you want to brew.

 

[LazyPasta]

@CodeSection , take a look at my attached file. I would have cam locks for quick connections when I'm switching anything, and this obviously has some potential for drips here and there... I can live with that. The RIMS Rocket would just sit idle when not being used. For a 5 gallon batch, after I mash in, I just unplug the kettle and plug in the Rocket. Since both the RIMS Rocket and the Boil Coil are 240V, Dave said I wouldn't even need to modify anything with his controllers. Just plug in what I want and continue.

I do agree with what you are saying about having one brewing routine. I feel like I'm forcing this a bit. I want to keep looking at other heating elements other than the boil coil to see if I can avoid this altogether.

 

[CodeSection]

Yes, that is what I visualized. I still have those "wonder" questions. Is there a reason why you do not want to go with another kettle manufacturer and use a stainless steel ripple heating element that will sit lower in the BK?

 

[LazyPasta]

None at all. I would just need to figure out how low I can reasonably connect an element like this in the kettle. Would you have any concerns if you only have minimal wort in covering the element, yet it's 5500W (during the mash recirculation)? I'd certainly like power like that for when I'm actually boiling my wort.

 

[Genuine]

With mine, I use the Hot Rod heat stick with a 5500w element and 240v from @Bobby_M since its super easy for me to clean and move between vessels if I ever needed to. I also employed the gravity drain from the mash tun to my kettle rims, then it's put back on top of the mash with the pump. I wanted a smaller foot print, less kettles and less cost. I used all cam lock fittings and they work great.

 

[CodeSection]

None at all. I would just need to figure out how low I can reasonably connect an element like this in the kettle. Would you have any concerns if you only have minimal wort in covering the element, yet it's 5500W (during the mash recirculation)? I'd certainly like power like that for when I'm actually boiling my wort.

If I wasn't using Blichmann's auto-sparge unit and watching the flow, then I would have concerns when brewing a five gallon batch in my 20G kettles. You are using 15G kettles which means using the same amount of water, your water level will be higher than mine. If you use a Blichmann auti-sparge unit and watch the flow, depending upon your equipment profile and waste along with your grain bill, I believe it is achievable.

 

[CodeSection]

@LazyPasta, I thought my water volume estimate for a five gallon batch was low. So, I built a new kettle profile for five gallon batches. Since I know my waste with hoses, CFC, etc., I only lowered the amount of waste attributable to trub. Next I went back and scaled two recipes that I previously brewed and scaled a porter I'm planning on brewing this weekend. Here are the results:

Original 10G batch Cream Ale: Started with 17.15 gallons of water; grain bill was 22.08 pounds
Scaled 5G batch Cream Ale: Shows to use 8.75 gallons of water; grain bill shows 11.29 pounds

Original 10G batch IPA: Started with 18.12 gallons of water; grain bill 30.13 pounds
Scaled 5G batch of the IPA: Shows to use 10.67 gallons of water; grain bill 15.86 pounds

Anticipated Porter: Shows to use 17.71 gallons of water; grain bill 26.78 pounds
Scaled 5G batch of Porter: Shows to use 10.42 gallons of water; grain bill 13.71 pounds

While I realize the five gallon kettle profile is not dialed in with true verifiable results, it does give an indication of the water volume I was guessing at should be higher. If my five gallon water numbers are correct, your Blichmann kettle should be able to handle it under a watchful eye. Other kettle manufactures (like Spike) that use the ripple heating element will easily handle it since the heating element sits lower in their kettle. Plus, my kettles are 20G while yours will be 15G. Thus, giving a higher water level in your kettle.

Good luck!

 

[LazyPasta]

@CodeSection - WOW, thank you for the replies. That was a great visual. I just looked in my Beersmith for one of my own recipes. For the 15 gallon kettles that have a 16" diameter, each gallon of water takes up 1.14" of space. Considering a grain absorption rate of 0.125 gal/lb (seem about right?), and a strike water volume of 3.4 gallons, I should have 2.57" above the grain bed. I'm assuming this would be plenty for the autosparge. With this recipe, I typically batch sparge with 4.93 gallons, so that would go in the kettle. Only 4 gallons is needed for the boil coil, so I'm great there. The one thing that I'm not accounting for is the area below the false bottom in the mash tun. Does anybody know how high these sit? Depending on how high it sits, that will raise my grains and take away from my liquid height above the grain.

@Genuine , thanks for the input! I just watched your video and it looks like you have a pretty smooth operation. If I can't get this boil coil business to work out, I will be considering other element options like yours! Also, what was the chiller you were using in your video? It sounds like it did it's job pretty quickly if you're running it right into your fermenter. I've been considering the Hydra by Jaded Brewing (as they always show on Brulosophy).

 

[Genuine]

@CodeSection - WOW, thank you for the replies. That was a great visual. I just looked in my Beersmith for one of my own recipes. For the 15 gallon kettles that have a 16" diameter, each gallon of water takes up 1.14" of space. Considering a grain absorption rate of 0.125 gal/lb (seem about right?), and a strike water volume of 3.4 gallons, I should have 2.57" above the grain bed. I'm assuming this would be plenty for the autosparge. With this recipe, I typically batch sparge with 4.93 gallons, so that would go in the kettle. Only 4 gallons is needed for the boil coil, so I'm great there. The one thing that I'm not accounting for is the area below the false bottom in the mash tun. Does anybody know how high these sit? Depending on how high it sits, that will raise my grains and take away from my liquid height above the grain.

@Genuine , thanks for the input! I just watched your video and it looks like you have a pretty smooth operation. If I can't get this boil coil business to work out, I will be considering other element options like yours! Also, what was the chiller you were using in your video? It sounds like it did it's job pretty quickly if you're running it right into your fermenter. I've been considering the Hydra by Jaded Brewing (as they always show on Brulosophy).

I used to have an immersion chiller but I was tired of the 30-45 min chill times so I went to a counterflow chiller. I don’t have a kettle hop spider and it’s been finewhen I brew NEIPA’s. No clogging and I run the chiller back into the kettle till I see 60-70 degree temps in the output, then I start transferring to fermenter. One pass gets it done to pitching temps and I’m done within 15 min or less. Easy to clean, simple.

 

[BrunDog]

IMO, the only reason to do full volume mashes across two kettles is when you have one element. With two, run a proper mash recirc through RIMs then boil in the BK. Even if you decide to switch the power to these two (which for the record, makes little sense - invest in a proper 2 element 30 or 50A controller).

If you want to sparging, do a cold water sparge and or heat the sparge water in the BK and do a full volume sparge. You can fly sparge with on-the-fly heating as I do but the equipment / controls can add up.

 

[LazyPasta]

Hi @BrunDog , thanks for your input. I will have 30 amp service, so I assume I'll only have one element firing at once. When you say to get a proper 2 element 30 amp controller, is that just so I dont need to unplug anything? Do you have a good example of this? Reaching over and unplugging one and plugging in another doesnt seem too bad to me, but I am no expert. It seems like it would also be cheaper, but I'm happy to hear your thoughts. If i had a nice controller with 2 elements, Id just make that my normal routine and always use one for mash recirculation and one for boiling as you say.