I will be receiving my all grain equipment this week and am going to try my first batch. In the recipe from northern brewer it says to sacch rest at 153 for 60 min and mash out at 168 for 10 min. So after the first rest at 153, how do i get the temp up to 168? I will be mashing in a cooler, so do i need to add more hot water, and if so at what temp? Also what is the difference between sacch rest and mash out?
1st All Grain
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veritas524
Well-Known Member
depends on your equipment, how much grain, how much water youre adding, etc... beersmith is.your friend for this stuff.
I wish there was a simple answer to your question, but there's not.
That all depends on some variables that you have not told.
I'm going to assume your batch sparging. This method is easiest to do.
I'm going to explain my method which yields a 75% efficiency.
For my mash tun I use a 10 gallon rubbermaid cooler, and preheat it with hot water so that my initial strike water does not lose too much heat and throw off my mash temp.
I heat some water to about 150F and put 2 gallons in the cooler, close the lid and slosh the water around inside then let it sit for ten minutes.
By the way, unless you like math your best bet is to get brewing software like Beersmith.
Beersmith does all the calculations for you.
In this case we are going to use your mash temp as an example 153F
When ready to start the initial strike, I pour the preheat water into a bucket, and set aside.
Then I add my strike water @167(according to Beersmith accounting for 10.75lbs of grain and the the type of MLT I'm using)from my hot liquor tank into my MLT.
After I get a couple of gallons of water in my MLT I start to add my grains, mixing the grains in with the water as I'm filling.
It is important not to add too much grain too fast or you will get dough balls(dry grain with no water) which will hurt your effeciency.
I do equal parts water when batch sparging so 4.25 gallons for mashing in, and 4.25 gallons when I'm mashing out.
You'll notice that I'm using 8.5 gallons total. That's because I've found that with dead space in my MLT and from water absorption from the grains I'll lose about 1 gallon of water. I will end up with 7.5 gallons in my boil kettle.
After the 60 min mash in, Beersmith tells me to heat my mash out water to 185F to mash out @168F
The short of it is...
Mash in with 4.25 gallons for 60 minutes, vorlauf, then sparge. Mash out with 4.25 additional gallons, stir the mash, and let sit for 10 minutes, vorlauf, then sparge. Done
So as you can see there are variables that come into play when doing all grain.
Everybody uses a different method, and uses different equipment so those variables change affecting your temps.
You are just going to have to fine tune your methods according the equipment your using, and it will take a few batches until you get the control your looking for.
So come up with a plan before you brew, don't fly by the seat of your pants just because you're itching to make some beer.
But if everything doesn't go as planned don't fret.
And most of all RDWHAHB!
That all depends on some variables that you have not told.
I'm going to assume your batch sparging. This method is easiest to do.
I'm going to explain my method which yields a 75% efficiency.
For my mash tun I use a 10 gallon rubbermaid cooler, and preheat it with hot water so that my initial strike water does not lose too much heat and throw off my mash temp.
I heat some water to about 150F and put 2 gallons in the cooler, close the lid and slosh the water around inside then let it sit for ten minutes.
By the way, unless you like math your best bet is to get brewing software like Beersmith.
Beersmith does all the calculations for you.
In this case we are going to use your mash temp as an example 153F
When ready to start the initial strike, I pour the preheat water into a bucket, and set aside.
Then I add my strike water @167(according to Beersmith accounting for 10.75lbs of grain and the the type of MLT I'm using)from my hot liquor tank into my MLT.
After I get a couple of gallons of water in my MLT I start to add my grains, mixing the grains in with the water as I'm filling.
It is important not to add too much grain too fast or you will get dough balls(dry grain with no water) which will hurt your effeciency.
I do equal parts water when batch sparging so 4.25 gallons for mashing in, and 4.25 gallons when I'm mashing out.
You'll notice that I'm using 8.5 gallons total. That's because I've found that with dead space in my MLT and from water absorption from the grains I'll lose about 1 gallon of water. I will end up with 7.5 gallons in my boil kettle.
After the 60 min mash in, Beersmith tells me to heat my mash out water to 185F to mash out @168F
The short of it is...
Mash in with 4.25 gallons for 60 minutes, vorlauf, then sparge. Mash out with 4.25 additional gallons, stir the mash, and let sit for 10 minutes, vorlauf, then sparge. Done
So as you can see there are variables that come into play when doing all grain.
Everybody uses a different method, and uses different equipment so those variables change affecting your temps.
You are just going to have to fine tune your methods according the equipment your using, and it will take a few batches until you get the control your looking for.
So come up with a plan before you brew, don't fly by the seat of your pants just because you're itching to make some beer.
But if everything doesn't go as planned don't fret.
And most of all RDWHAHB!
chaydaw
Well-Known Member
I know this is probably an oversight but the above process is not quite right and I don't want to confuse the OP. Yes, start the mash, let it run for 60 minutes, vorlauf, but then you do not sparge. Sparging is rinsing the grains. Before you can sparge you need to drain the tun of your first runnings. After that, THEN you sparge with your next 4 gallons or whatever your specific recipe calls for. Then you vorlauf again, then DRAIN the tun again. Sparging does not equal draining the tun. Just to clarify, a mash out is a step that I believe is used to halt conversion/help lautering, it is not interchangeable with sparging.
chaydaw
Well-Known Member
When you are draining your tun the first few quarts will contain grain material that you don't want in your BK. So you drain that portion into another small vessel and just put it back into your tun once the runnings are clear. Single infusion means you will be adding all of your strike water at one time at one single temp. You do not need to "stop conversion" / mashout. Yes you can just mash and sparge.
For future questions use the search feature. Most all of the questions you will have someone else has asked. With a little searching all of your questions will easily be answered.
Brasco20
Well-Known Member
I have been doing a lot of reading and playing with beersmith, but i still have some questions. First, my recipe is 12.5lbs of grain, reading in the all grain sticky it says to use 1 quart of water per pound of grain for the mash, so i will use 12.5 quarts. Then for the sparge it says to use 1/2 gallon for each pound, so 6 gallons for the sparge. This puts me around 9 gallons of water. Beersmith says strike water should be 168.4. From searching i think that my sparge water needs to be 168, is that what i heat the water to, or is that what the grain temp needs to be after adding the sparge water?
Also the water needed tool in beersmith gives me different amounts for the water that i need. I put 12.5 quarts for mash water and it gives me 4.16 gallons for sparge water.
I assumed for sparging that i put the water in,recirculate until clear then drain, but reading on here i find that you guys sparge for 60 min or so, what do i need to do here?
I know a lot of questions, but i want to have a somewhat of an understanding before i dive into this.
Thank you very much for the help, you guys are life savers!
Also the water needed tool in beersmith gives me different amounts for the water that i need. I put 12.5 quarts for mash water and it gives me 4.16 gallons for sparge water.
I assumed for sparging that i put the water in,recirculate until clear then drain, but reading on here i find that you guys sparge for 60 min or so, what do i need to do here?
I know a lot of questions, but i want to have a somewhat of an understanding before i dive into this.
Thank you very much for the help, you guys are life savers!
Let me say first is that there are different ways to sparge.
The two techniques used most are Batch sparging, and Fly sparging.
I could explain the difference but that explanation is already available on the forum and all over the internet.
If you were thinking about fly sparging you'll want to do some more research on the technique.
I can't really offer any advice on fly sparging, I think the main reason people fly sparge is to get better efficiency. Fly sparging is a bit more involved though.
Like my original post, I "batch" sparge in 2 steps with equal amounts of water each time to end up with 7.5 gallons collected when finished.
My answers to your questions...
168 is what you'll heat the water to before mixing the grain. The grain will absorb the heat and drop to hopefully hit your target temperature. Again, your equipment and methods may have to be tweaked to hit the target temp dead on.
Preheating your MLT will help, also keeping the lid on during the mash helps greatly.
Hitting your mash temp is more important than the volume of sparge water used, so don't worry so much about using an exact volume of water, use that number as a guideline, and keep a thermometer with you and check where your temp is while adding the grain.
You will also want to keep a gallon or two of boiling water handy because I believe your going to have some heat loss during the 60 minutes and you may have to use that water to raise the temp back to your target mash temp.
If needed add the boiling water slowly while checking the temp with your thermometer.
I like to check my temp after the first ten minutes, then after 30 minutes. If I need to I add the boiling water to hold my temp steady.
After adding the water to the grain, you will let it sit for 60 minutes. After 60 minutes has elapsed you'll begin to collect the (runnings) or wort, but you need to vorlauf first. Use something like a pitcher, bucket, or other suitable container to collect the first few quarts until the wort flows free of cloudiness, and grain debris. The wort you've collected during the vorlauf can be poured right back into your mash tun. The grain bed will filter it keeping it from being introduced into your boil kettle
Then drain the Mash Tun to collect your wort.
If you don't already own a copy get How To Brew by John Palmer or go to his online version of the book http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html
This is the best book in my opinion for learning how to brew.
The two techniques used most are Batch sparging, and Fly sparging.
I could explain the difference but that explanation is already available on the forum and all over the internet.
If you were thinking about fly sparging you'll want to do some more research on the technique.
I can't really offer any advice on fly sparging, I think the main reason people fly sparge is to get better efficiency. Fly sparging is a bit more involved though.
Like my original post, I "batch" sparge in 2 steps with equal amounts of water each time to end up with 7.5 gallons collected when finished.
My answers to your questions...
168 is what you'll heat the water to before mixing the grain. The grain will absorb the heat and drop to hopefully hit your target temperature. Again, your equipment and methods may have to be tweaked to hit the target temp dead on.
Preheating your MLT will help, also keeping the lid on during the mash helps greatly.
Hitting your mash temp is more important than the volume of sparge water used, so don't worry so much about using an exact volume of water, use that number as a guideline, and keep a thermometer with you and check where your temp is while adding the grain.
You will also want to keep a gallon or two of boiling water handy because I believe your going to have some heat loss during the 60 minutes and you may have to use that water to raise the temp back to your target mash temp.
If needed add the boiling water slowly while checking the temp with your thermometer.
I like to check my temp after the first ten minutes, then after 30 minutes. If I need to I add the boiling water to hold my temp steady.
After adding the water to the grain, you will let it sit for 60 minutes. After 60 minutes has elapsed you'll begin to collect the (runnings) or wort, but you need to vorlauf first. Use something like a pitcher, bucket, or other suitable container to collect the first few quarts until the wort flows free of cloudiness, and grain debris. The wort you've collected during the vorlauf can be poured right back into your mash tun. The grain bed will filter it keeping it from being introduced into your boil kettle
Then drain the Mash Tun to collect your wort.
If you don't already own a copy get How To Brew by John Palmer or go to his online version of the book http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html
This is the best book in my opinion for learning how to brew.
Follow along with Denny Conn here Cheap n Easy Batch Sparge
And Bobby_M Bobby M's All Grain Brewing Primer
And Bobby_M Bobby M's All Grain Brewing Primer
The target temperature of the sparge should be high. 175+. Even in the 180F's is okay. It doesn't really matter. You are only rinsing the grain. Conversion is already done.
Mashout is the term for raising the temperature of the mash to 170°F prior to lautering. This step stops all of the enzyme action (preserving your fermentable sugar profile) and makes the grainbed and wort more fluid.
You don't have to do this if your water to grain ratio is high enough say 1.4qts/lb of grain and higher.
So don't confuse yourself. Just do the single infusion and do a mashout after you have some experience.
You don't have to do this if your water to grain ratio is high enough say 1.4qts/lb of grain and higher.
So don't confuse yourself. Just do the single infusion and do a mashout after you have some experience.
That is pretty low. You probably want to be more in the range of 1.3-1.5/Lb
The amount of sparge needed is dependent on the amout of wort you have already put in your brew kettle. If you masch with 3 gallons of water you won't get 3 gallons in your kettle. The grain will absorb some of it. And it's a good practice to try to mash and sparge with about the same amount of water. So lets say mash with 4.5 gallons of water, yields 3 gallons of wort. If you want to start your boil with say 7 gallons then sparge with 4 gallons of water at 175F+. That will get you close to 7 gal then you can boil down to 5.5 gallons and check the gravity.
That's a 60 min rest not 60 min sparge.
Cool.
Just remember, you're gonna screw something up. But you learn from that. Don't worry if you don't hit a perfect temp or time or gravity. It will still be beer. And you'll get better the more batches you brew.
Focus on sanitization and control of your fermentation temperature.
And don't forget to get a chlorine filter for your water. Get the shower head type and adapt it to your outside spigot.
Just remember, you're gonna screw something up. But you learn from that. Don't worry if you don't hit a perfect temp or time or gravity. It will still be beer. And you'll get better the more batches you brew.
Focus on sanitization and control of your fermentation temperature.
And don't forget to get a chlorine filter for your water. Get the shower head type and adapt it to your outside spigot.
Brasco20
Well-Known Member
Ive always used bottled water for extract brews since i wasnt doing full boils. I assumed since im doing full boils now that i would just use my tap, do i still need a filter even though its a full boil? I cant connect a filter to my faucet, it has a big sprayer head on it. My fridge has a filter, but that would take forever. Do i need to stick with bottled water?
jetmac,
thanks for clearing that up. I may have caused some confusion, on the difference between the mash temp and sparge temp.
I noticed my oversight after reading your posts.
I think I'll shut up until I can be more observant of the questions.
thanks for clearing that up. I may have caused some confusion, on the difference between the mash temp and sparge temp.
I noticed my oversight after reading your posts.
I think I'll shut up until I can be more observant of the questions.
I would highly suggest a chlorine filter. You can get one that attaches to your shower head. Like this one from Home Depot
Brasco20
Well-Known Member
So i just tried to boil 5 gallons of water on my stove top, i have a gas range with one big power burner and the only way i could keep it at a boil was to leave the lid on. I dont want to boil wort with the lid on, right? Is it time for a propane burner? What do you guys think about the banjo burner?
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
You want the lid at least partially off so that you can reduce the wort...
I have a Banjo KAB4 burner... It kicks ass... Rebel Brewer also sells it (which is where I got mine)...
I like the KAB4 since the fire is not concentrated in the middle of the pot. Makes for a more even heating of the kettle (I believe/IMO)... Plus, I've had it running and put my hand right under it and it barely got warm... Will see how it is if I turn it up to high... I used it on 2/26 outside, for a brew day (first time I used it, second time I put my hand under it)... There was ice on the ground, so I stuck it in there... It just melted the ice gently, unlike the burner my brew-buddy has (a lot more heat hit the ground, melting the ice and steaming what remained, making the ground dry under it)...
You have several options for burners to get... There are some cheaper than what I picked up, as well as more expensive. Keep in mind, the burner element in mine is identical to the one Blichmann uses/sells.
They just have a nice SS shell around it, and a different hose connecting to the propane tank.
I have a Banjo KAB4 burner... It kicks ass... Rebel Brewer also sells it (which is where I got mine)...
I like the KAB4 since the fire is not concentrated in the middle of the pot. Makes for a more even heating of the kettle (I believe/IMO)... Plus, I've had it running and put my hand right under it and it barely got warm... Will see how it is if I turn it up to high... I used it on 2/26 outside, for a brew day (first time I used it, second time I put my hand under it)... There was ice on the ground, so I stuck it in there... It just melted the ice gently, unlike the burner my brew-buddy has (a lot more heat hit the ground, melting the ice and steaming what remained, making the ground dry under it)...
You have several options for burners to get... There are some cheaper than what I picked up, as well as more expensive. Keep in mind, the burner element in mine is identical to the one Blichmann uses/sells.
They just have a nice SS shell around it, and a different hose connecting to the propane tank.
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Brasco20
Well-Known Member
This is the one im looking at, is this the same one that you have? http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewi...ow-profile-banjo-burner-burner-and-stand.html
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
Yup... Just work with it to adjust the air/fuel mix and you'll be rocking and rolling in no time at all... :rockin:
I have had great success heating a 10 gallon triple bottom SS pot with the Bayou Classic SQ14. It is about $25-$30 less expensive. IMO, having a flame more centered may help to "roll" the wort as it's boiling. Sort of stirring it from the bottom then to the outside and back down.
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