Gruit Ales in the kettle

Given the hop shortages I decided to experiment with some more traditional ingredients in beer. I decided to do 2 small batches with different herbal ingredients available from the HBS.
I started with a 6gal base beer using a Scottish 80/- grain bill. Then I split the batches one on my stove and one on my usually turkey fryer.
Here are the recipes:


Recipe: Gruit
Style: Scottish Export 80/-
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 3.00 gal
Boil Size: 3.65 gal
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 17.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 0.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 72.60 %
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 9.07 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 9.07 %
4.0 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 4.54 %
2.1 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -135L (135.0 SRM) Grain 2.36 %
2.1 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.36 %
1.00 oz Elderflower (Boil 0.0 min) Misc
1.00 oz Mugwort (Boil 60.0 min) Misc
2.00 gm Sweet Gale (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Nottingham Yeast (Lallemand #-) Yeast-Ale

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recipe: Heather Ale (Gruit)
Style: Scottish Export 80/-
TYPE: All Grain
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 3.00 gal
Boil Size: 3.65 gal
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 16.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 0.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 76.05 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 9.51 %
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4.75 %
4.0 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 4.75 %
2.1 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -135L (135.0 SRM) Grain 2.47 %
2.1 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.47 %
1.00 oz Heather (Boil 0.0 min) Misc
1.00 oz Heather (Boil 60.0 min) Misc
2.00 gm Sweet Gale (Boil 15.0 min) Misc

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge

I'll update this thread once I get a chance to taste the beers.

Craig

View attachment gruit.bsm

From Stephen Harrod Buhners Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers. the herbs to use are Myrica Gale, Marsh Rosemary, and Yarrow. This is one to be careful with as these ingredients are highly Psychotropic when combined.

Lol, that's what I was going to say!

The main argument against hops, when they marched into England from Germany was "Hops do nothing to further effect my head!"

There was an interesting discussion of this buried deep in a thread called "Hobbit Brew" a while back, if you care to search.

Godd experiment.

Also I remember that heather was mentioned as a brewing ingredient.

ESROHDE said:

From Stephen Harrod Buhners Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers. the herbs to use are Myrica Gale, Marsh Rosemary, and Yarrow. This is one to be careful with as these ingredients are highly Psychotropic when combined.

Click to expand...

Psychotropic 'eh? In a good way? Do tell, I'm interested in hearing more about this.....

My choice of ingredients were based on what was currently available at the HBS and what sounded like traditional brewing ingredients after doing some research on the web. Sweet Gale is I believe Myrica gale. Marsh Rosemary appears to be unavailable in the US and yarrow was not available at the store either, though I may dry some I have growing in the flower beds.

I used the Heather based on the recipes I found for Fraoch Ale from Scotland. The original I found in a local beer store was quite good.

Two concerns I have at this point in the brewing process.
First the mugwort while it did not have a strong aroma in the bag produced a very strong sage smell in the boiling wort. If the beer tastes anything like this it won't be pleasant.
Second the elderflowers had a fish smell when I opened the bag. I didn't notice it in the beer but it still concerns me.

I have much more optimism for the heather ale but I didn't have a good feel for some of the quantities to use there either.

We will see

Craig

elder flowers have a funny smell fresh or dried. any member of the artemisia family( mugwort, wormwood etc.) is going to be VERY bitter. 1 oz. doesnt seem like much but i would try cutting that in half. I didnt see anything about the use of heather to make gruit but I feel that any beer with Heather has to be good. Fraoch is one of my favorites but unavailable in my area. If any one is looking for quality herbal ingredients for brewing look up Pacific Botanicals.

I made a heather fraoch a while back that closely resembled yours.

it turned out fabulously -- greatly benefitted from bottle conditioning

The Soft Underbelly said:

Psychotropic 'eh? In a good way? Do tell, I'm interested in hearing more about this.....

Click to expand...

out of the three herbs in the gruit recipe i have, yarrow is the easiest to aquire. used as an ancient substitute for hops, some suspect it increases the effects of alcohol. Wormwood, the main ing. of absinthe, has a high level of thujone , which is narcotic. but you have to use alot which can taste really awful. Sage, garden or clary also has thujone but doesnt taste that good. scotch broom (Cystisus scoparius) henbane (Hyoscyamus niger) mandrake (Atropa mandragora) darnel (Lolium temulentum) saffron(Crocus sativa) wild lettuce(Lactuca spp.) These are all of the psychotropic herbs listed in Buhners book. Some are considered poisonous if you look them up in other books so caution is advised.

Brewing a psychotropic beer may not be advised.

Don't get me wrong, I experimented my fair share in my younger days, but walking around even mildly tripping is something to be taken very seriously.

cheezydemon said:

Brewing a psychotropic beer may not be advised.

Don't get me wrong, I experimented my fair share in my younger days, but walking around even mildly tripping is something to be taken very seriously.

Click to expand...

Good advice.... driving it is!!!

Interesting thread though, ive been interested in brewing hopless beer, but had no idea that it would enhance my enjoyment of my Grateful Dead records. When i take the plunge i'll certainly save my first samplings for a weekend...

I bottled these two beers up last night. Ofcourse I had to take a sample

First these both way under attenuated. My finishing gravity was 1.023 given a SG of 1.050 these are only about 3.5% ABV. They both tasted somewhat sweet but not as much as I expected.

The Heather Ale had a pleasant taste. About what you would expect from a Scottish Ale. Very minimal floral or medicinal flavors.

The Gruit had a very strong medicinal flavor. I didn't get the sage flavor that I smelled during boiling but there was a strong herbal flavor present. The aftertaste was even stronger. I'm not sure this is going to be drinkable but I will give it some time.

Right now these beers are giving me no reason to continue the hopless experiments.

Craig

did the medicinal tastes of the gruit go away with some aging?

I have not tried one in some time so i will have to put one in the fridge to taste and get back to you.
Last I tried the gruit it still had a pretty bad sage/herbal flavor and aroma. The heather ale was not bad but not something I crave either.

The gruit has been good for port marinades.

Craig

i'd love to make a gruit sometime, it is about five beers down on my "next up" list. i've never had a gruit of any sort. i've had one heather ale, and it was delicious. a nearby organic brewery made it when i lived in portland, oregon. i could go for some of that right now . . .

One suggestion is use less mugwort than I did.

I am not loving my heather ale either but it is atleast decent.

Craig

Update on the Gruit.
This one has had a strong herbal sage like flavor and an almost medicinal taste. So I haven't bothered to open one for a while. On the behest of a poster on this thread I decided to chill another bottle and see if it had changed any.

Well it definitively has. It has become much more interesting and drinkable. Still not a beer I enjoy drinking but the flavors have mellowed. It is still herbal with undertones of sage but now those flavors are more restrained allowing this to be a flavored beer instead of tasting like a herbal medicine.

I will probably finish drinking this batch of beer over time but it will take some time. It still is just not a beer I want to sit down and have a few of.

Craig

subscribed.

I've just ordered my Bog Myrtle, Heather, Yarrow and Labrador Tea from the local herb nursery.

I'm going to propagate them and use half of the young plants to make a wood fired gruit.
I'll let the rest of the plant grow on and if the gruit is successfully I'll plant them up for further brews.

I plan to do 2 x 1 gallon brews to start. One I'll do using modern methods including weighing and recording. Probably on the stove top.
The other will be as close to old style as possible on wood. I've not decided if I'm going to leave the thermometer out of it or not.

I'll start a new thread for picture when I start.

Orfy said:

I've just ordered my Bog Myrtle, Heather, Yarrow and Labrador Tea from the local herb nursery.

I'm going to propagate them and use half of the young plants to make a wood fired gruit.
I'll let the rest of the plant grow on and if the gruit is successfully I'll plant them up for further brews.

I plan to do 2 x 1 gallon brews to start. One I'll do using modern methods including weighing and recording. Probably on the stove top.
The other will be as close to old style as possible on wood. I've not decided if I'm going to lean the thermometer out of it or not.

I'll start a new thread for picture when I start.

Click to expand...

Now thats the way to make a Gruit!
With the exception of yarrow I can't hardly find the herbs let alone the plants. And yarrow is only found as plants.

Looking forward to your results.

Craig

I've not ordered from them, but it looks like Wild Weeds has the herbs that you're after.

I would be surprised if you didn't have wild yarrow around, that stuff grows everywhere. Well, at least everywhere I have been I have seen it ... which is somewhat limited ... but in the midwest, the east coast, and west coast I have seen it in either pictures or person. Makes a decent tea.

I've got mugwort, wormwood, and yarrow growing right now in preparation for a gruit later this year. Coudln't find any sellers of myrica gale or marsh rosemary seeds, I'll have to buy those herbs pre-picked. Should be interesting to experience the effects of a gruit as opposed to a hopped ale. Just bought Ancient and Healing Herbal Beers so I'll be referencing it in making the gruit. Although the recipes in it are a bit disappointing.

Heya,

Just wanted to pop in on this thread, as I am also interested in gruit ale recipes.

I did try my 1st gruit ale back in December '08, by taking an extract kit for a Beligan Ale, and replacing most of the hops with some Sweet Gale & Wormwood. The result was a blazingly bitter beer that would make an IPA blush. Wormwood is one of the most bitter botanicals known...

So, following the logic that bitterness is used to balance sweet, I brewed a second beer, a sweet & malty Scotch Ale. I thought I should try to salvage my bitter brew by mixing it with a sweeter ale.

I'd definitely say that aging a few months will take a lot of herbal sharpness out of a beer. (even on holiday brews w/nutmeg, cinnamon, etc.) So, after 6 months in the bottle, 50/50 with a scotch ale, it tastes really good! I am very encouraged.

I just started all-grain brewing, so I'm aiming to make an AG recipe for a good gruit ale. To that end, I'm thinking of taking an Old Ale recipe, and replacing the hops with Wormwood & Sweet Gale, at about half the dose I used in the 1st batch. I'll post when I get that one going.

As for the psychotropic aspects of gruit, I will concur. Great care should be taken, and research needs to be made. That being said, my first batch did confer some great mellow feelings that persist the morning next.

I've planted some Heather, Yarrow & Skullcap, as they are hard to find in dried, ready-to-use form. Gruit Ale can use most any local herbs, as that was the custom in Medival Europe prior to the introduction of hops. So, do try other herbs, and let us know how they turn out!

Cheers,
--LexusChris

Wow. You felt mellow, after drinking beer. It must have been the herbs, not the alcohol.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but the psychotropic effects of herbs in alcohol are way over considered. Most of them, in blind studies, have shown that the effects are purely placebo. With that aside ...

When brewing an alcohol with an herb that is "known to have psychotropic effects" you need to consider several things: 1) In what form is that herb known to be psychotropic? Tea? Eaten? Dried? Fresh? Smoked? Inhaled? 2) What effect does boiling, steeping, alcohol, yeast, or other enzymatic activity have on the active ingredient in that herb?

Most psychotropics do not come in tea form. The few that do work in tea form are quickly burnt off by boiling or denatured by alcohol.

For example, wormwood. Wormwood has been known as a psychotropic for ages. First, the active ingredient in wormwood is thujone. Thujone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . It is also found in some junipers (say Gin!). Thujone causes a slight psychoactive response. Unfortunately, at the high levels of thujone required to be consumed to experience that psychoactive response .... thujone is a neurotoxin. That means, it will cause epileptic fits, you will **** yourself, and you will probably die. Not fun. However, thujone must be taken in large doses to have that effect, otherwise the liver absorbs it and it washes right on out of the body.

In that glorious alcohol, Absinthe, which I love, thujone reaches a maximum of 8ppm after the distillation process. The process of heating, steeping, heating, and letting sit in alcohol to age quickly denatures thujone. The only way to get more is to actually add the thujone in, via droppers, to the final product - not cool, it adds nothing worthwhile to the drink.

Now that the science is out of the way, what about beer? Well, in beer you have two choices you can boil that wormwood or you can put it in the secondary. If it is in the boil, then the thujone will be cooked off, boo. If it is in the secondary, you might get a little bit, but by the time you added enough wormwood to get any psychotropic effects to show up, the drink would be qualified as "bitters" - just add brandy! - and would be nearly undrinkable straight. Not to mention that if your beer has any decent amount of alcohol, it will denature the thujone while bottle aging.

Righty-o, that's enough with science today. Good luck with your psychotropic beers :\.

PS:

Sorry for the sarcasm, but it is nonsense like this that caused absinthe to be made illegal in the first place.

Wow Maztec. Did someone just run over your dog? Or do you greet all new members this way?

Gruit Ale is a historically accurate beer, and I've spent some time researching & reading up on it. I've sampled a few gruit ales, and brewed one myself.

I certainly know what effect alcohol has on my mind & body. So, definitely not an alcohol effect I noticed.

You also seem to misunderstand the word 'psychotropic'. Any substance that effects your mind, mood or mental process is considered psychotropic. Beer is psychotropic.

Herbs, in general, do have properties and health effects which have been documented for hundreds of years. Believe me, I'm not some herb zealot, but some herbs do provide good & noticable positive effects.

Depending upon the herb & associated chemical it contains, there may or may not be a way to get its effect in a beer. You really need to do the research. Each herb is different.

Many of the gruit herbs I've read up on are normally used in boiled water to make a tea, so if you add them in the late boil or at flame-out, you can see the same effects as the tea. You can also add to the secondary, and try that too.

You would also want to put some in the full boil for the bitterness. That was their original purpose.

This topic is about gruit ale, and I posted appropriately. If you have some sort of moral objection to gruit ale, or those who want to explore this interesting piece of history, then don't post here ... move on.

Regards,
--LexusChris

p.s. Absinthe was banned more as a crackdown on the 'morally corrupt' and by the anti-alcohol conservative politicians which also gave us Prohibition.

LexusChris:

I apologize if my posting was not clear because of its initial tone. Yes, I did wrong down on the wake side of the bed today. I did attempt to edit the message, but it was getting nowhere - as in, my point was lost. As a result, I peppered it with apologies for the tone I knew it would be interpreted as having. A tone I did not intend, which was the point of the apologies - the "I realize this is coming across as a sarcastic response, but it is not meant to be" style apology. Happily, text allows us to explain such styling, but apparently that did not work here. I suppose I should have peppered in a few more apologies.

I have been following this thread for a while - because I find gruit beers interesting. In particular, I like the idea of brewing without hops - I have a few relatives with allergies to hops. I have not brewed a hopless, gruit beer myself, but I have added herbs in place of some of the hops to a few of my recipes with good results.

I am not aware as to how I misinterpreted the meaning of psychotropic in context of the conversation. Anything that alters brain chemistry may be considered psychoactive or psychotropic. However, when someone says "psychotropic beer", I have not encountered an intended meaning of "all beer considered psychotropic". My message was an attempt to draw a distinction between the effects of a psychotropic drug/herb/etc in your beer and the actual effects of the beer itself. I admit, my first line was a major turn-off, but I believe the remainder of my message started to make sense in that wall of text.

Additionally, I believe I made it clear in the remainder of my message regarding the effects of boiling on psychotropic drugs and then cited a specific example - wormwood.

As for the debate on why absinthe was made illegal, we are both correct. The crackdown on the moral corruption of alcohol, which fueled Prohibition was caused by many sources for many reasons. However, the demonization of absinthe was worldwide, more so than prohibition, and stemmed from studies into thujone and its psychoactive effects. Assumptions were drawn and conclusions were made, which 100 years later have been proven false. History is fun.

I also agree with you fully regarding:

Depending upon the herb & associated chemical it contains, there may or may not be a way to get its effect in a beer. You really need to do the research. Each herb is different.

Click to expand...

That was a large point in my posting. However, part of my response came from your comment:

That being said, my first batch did confer some great mellow feelings that persist the morning next.

Click to expand...

Which, if I followed what beer that referred to was

I did try my 1st gruit ale back in December '08, by taking an extract kit for a Beligan Ale, and replacing most of the hops with some Sweet Gale & Wormwood.

Click to expand...

I already explained wormwood tea as having very little thujone, not enough to have any effect (if any residual amounts even remain). I also explained how you could have some in it, but that the effects of wormwood are tempered by its bitterness and odds of killing yourself at the level of thujone you would have to consume to actually obtain psychoactive effects.

I did not post about sweet gale, because its most likely medicinal results from being included your beer are possibly a decrease in acne, abortion if you are a pregnant woman, a reduction in fever if you have one, and possibly a minor reduction in a stomach ache. Its effects on the liver and stomach ache tend to be limited to chewing it, not drinking it as a tea. Although, it can help a stomach ache a bit if mixed with chamomile tea. Now, if you were using the dried root of sweet gale in a beer, you might be in business, if it doesn't kill you first.

The combination of wormwood and sweet gale, to my knowledge, should not have any psychoactive effects. Herbal combinations that have heightened effects have multiple causes. The most common are either changes in the active chemical compounds or a combination of compounds that work together to lower your tolerance level and then at least one takes effect. Alcohol is a great way to lower the tolerance level to psychotropics, which explains the really bad trips some people have. However, when brewed into alcohol, most things people think to throw in do not have any noticeable effect. On the other hand, a few things can increase or lengthen the effect of the alcohol itself by slowing the bodies processing of alcohol and fluids to remove them from the body.

As a matter of curiosity, I did a fair amount of studying what various herbs, essences, etc., will do to people in different forms. I spent far too much time reading up on it, which is why I made the point that its form has a lot to do with the effect. Wormwoods effects are best encountered as an extract, taken directly or dripped in water.

And finally, please do let me know how I came across as having a moral objection toward gruit beer. I am dumbfounded by that.

Okay, I will return to being a stump on a log again. However, I do apologize for the tone of my original response to you and for being taken as a foul mooded high-moralist anti-drug bible-thumping ass.

Best,

-M

Hey Maztec.

I think I probably over-reacted as well.

You're a brother homebrewer and have also down some good research into gruit. Sorry for my attitude.

Time to move on and have a homebrew!

Peace.
--LexusChris

Interesting thread... My first post here.

To the person who said that thujone is denatured, thujone cannot be 'denatured'. In biochemistry, denaturation usually refers to proteins, which have a special structure, and whose functions are dependent on this structure. When a protein loses it's natural shape, it is denatured. Thujone is a resinoid, and although it's structure also dictates it's function, it happens to be a lot simpler. If Thujone is altered at the atomic level, it's destroyed or changed, not denatured.

And thujone is a GABA-A receptor antagonist, meaning that in the brain it has an opposite effect as ethanol does, which is evident at much less than toxic levels. Just go to PubMed and you'll see that there have been studies showing that pretreatment with sedative drugs including alcohol actually reduced the lethality of thujone.

I'd have to say that there is a lot more to these herbs than placebo. Try making a strong tea of hops and drinking it. You probably will get sleepy. There is a scientific basis for this, and it has an accepted use as a sedative in herbal medicine. I've been harvesting and using Labrador Tea for years, and if you make a good strong cup (lets say a little stronger than what I use for my brews), you'll get dizzy and feel awful, especially if it's flower material.

A lot of these herbs do have measurable physical effects at levels way below their toxic threshold, and if you wind up mixing the right things together (there are enzyme inhibitors in things like tea, black pepper and many other foods and spices) I certainly think that they could serve to enhance or alter the effects of the alcohol or of eachother significantly.

Moreover, some herbal adjuncts would almost certainly have a role in offsetting some of the negative side-effects from drinking. I'm thinking about ginger and nausea right now...

I know bringing back old posts is faux pas, but for the record i think there are many elements to this psychotropic effect that arent being taken into consideration. For instance, with addition of the heather herb, naturally an ergot fungus grows on the under side of it's leaves that is psychedelic... which i find a very hard time believing that medieval brewers didn't quickly experiment and figure out what was causing the effect. Combine that with the mild levels of thujone and whatever all else, and you begin to see why gruit was basically shunned/outlawed by the church and powers that were. Enter the german purity laws (which was their purpose, to get rid of gruit) and hops as the only acceptable form of bittering agent for beer. I'm just saying, it's hard telling just how psychedelic gruit was becoming to encourage an actual law to control it.