IBU Math / Only Late Additions

I'm working on a recipe and have been wanting to experiment with hop timing a little, but thought I would tap the collective mind for some general direction.

Basically, I was thinking of still doing a full 60 minute boil, but with no early hops. I would do big additions towards the end of the boil to get me to the IBUs I want and hopefully have a big pop from aroma, but a more balanced bitterness. I have heard anecdotally that this will have a "less harsh bitterness" but I'm not quite sure what that means to my tastebuds.

With what I have worked up in Brewer's Friend so far, I'm looking at doing 1oz of Sterling (8.7) with 10 minutes left and 1oz Mosaic (12.5) with 5 minutes left which gets me to ~25 IBU, which is the neighborhood I'm going for. Kinda shooting for a blonde ale recipe/bitterness, but with the aroma of a pale ale.

I have a bunch of small amounts of random hops on hand, so I may go for a "hopburst" at flameout instead of the Mosaic at 10 minutes, but I don't really want to toy with the calculator that much until I know more about this method.

Does this sound right? Any thoughts or experiences with only late additions?

Your plan will work out fine, you'll get a lot of hop flavor without a lot of bitterness just like you want. I will mention, however, that the flavor of the Mosaic will totally overpower the Sterling, but if you were to skip the Sterling altogether and just plan to boil the Mosaic for 15 minutes instead of just 5 minutes, then you could get almost identical results but save that ounce of Sterling for another day (probably worth a couple bucks). Something to think about.

Thanks for the feedback and good call on the mosaic. I really want the sterling in this beer, so I might do the opposite and save the mosaic for later. I have a handful of 1oz packets of different things kicking around that I will toy with in the calculator.

If you have any cascade that goes great with sterling in replace of the mosaic. Just did a pale with those and it was great.

I don't know your experience level so excuse me if this is obvious.

For whirlpool/hopstand/flameout hops, I usually put them in the software as a 5 minute boil to see IBU contribution (Rager!). I'll balance ibus while it's set that way, then switch it to the appropriate time and type.

As far as late hops like that, or any hops I guess, the equations are just a guide. Especially in the days of big late hops for flavor and aroma. People talking about "softer bitterness" is just more evidence that the equations aren't perfect, but they're what we have. You need to tune your tounge to recognize what 20 ibus means as far as bitterness, and what 40 is, etc. Then as you migrate to big late hops, you'll get a feel for dosage rate in ounces per batch or gallon are good for you.

Cheers!

Thanks for the input. Weezy, I do the same when entering into brewers friend for IBU calculations. I ended up making this a "clean out the fridge" brew since I had a lot of random grains and hops that have been hanging around a while...we'll see how it goes.

10 gallon batch
Grains:
12lb 2 row
2.5lb Golden Naked Oats
1lb Maris otter
4oz Red-X
4oz Cara Red
8oz Dextrose

Hops - All at 15 minutes left in boil
1oz Sterling
1oz Willamette
1oz Styrian Golding
1oz Northdown

Split into two 5 gallon fermenters and pitched 2 rehydrated packets of mangrove jack m84 (bohemian lager) into each one.

OG 1.044

With the actual AA of my hops, BF put the IBU right around 20. The wort tasted great. I imagine I'll lose a lot of the aroma during the lagering process, but should be more than I would have had with early additions. We'll see. Pitched 2 days ago and still twiddling my thumbs waiting for this M84 to show signs of life...

Interesting hop layering there! Earthy, woody, resiny. Sounds good as lager especially. Nice pairing. Let us know how it turns outs.

Thanks, hope it works well. When 15 minutes hit, I had those 4 hops out with some lager yeast and a ton of simcoe and mosaic out with some ale yeast. eenie meenie miney moe...

In my (admittedly limited) experience, Mosaic hops added at 15 minutes give a different flavor than when added at 5 minutes or FO. The late additions emphasize the fruity flavors and the earlier additions emphasize the herbal/spicy flavors.

I made a beer with all late hope additions (starting at 15 minutes) using Willamette and Mosaic. I'm pretty sure I could taste the Willamette, so that might be a good choice to stand up to Mosaic.

Also, I've noticed that Tinseth seems accurate for 60 minute additions but overestimates the IBUs from late additions. Try it and see, but I won't be surprised if you come out low on bitterness if your first addition is at 15 minutes and you use Tinseth.

Updating for posterity - The beer has been lagering a week now and there is still strong hop aroma * flavor in samples I've tasted. I'm pressure fermenting in a corny keg, so that probably helps. I do feel like I got hop flavors that I wanted without a very bitter beer which is what I was going for. I'll update in again when I get some real samples when this goes on tap in a few more weeks.

sendai said:

In my (admittedly limited) experience, Mosaic hops added at 15 minutes give a different flavor than when added at 5 minutes or FO. The late additions emphasize the fruity flavors and the earlier additions emphasize the herbal/spicy flavors.

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Yeah, if you read Ray Daniel's book, designing great beer, he talks quite convincingly about how actively cooking hops creates different flavor compounds. There is a point to different hop addition times.