Quick Lager Method *UPDATED*

CornyKegs 728
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Mer-man said:
(Borat voice) But with great success! (/Borat)

You might be surprised at how quickly healthy yeast at the right pitch rate and under the proper conditions can ferment.
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Quickly, yes. You might have reached terminal gravity but what will the final product taste like?
 
TastyAdventure said:
Quickly, yes. You might have reached terminal gravity but what will the final product taste like?
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You are more than welcome to swing by and taste it!

I checked my notes and it was actually:
10 for 2 days
13 for 3 days
18 for 4 days
10 for 1 day
4 for 2 days

During which I was out of the country and since I had neglected to check the next step on the controller program, it went
2 days at 18

Then I came home and brought it down to
4 for about a week

Then racked it.
 
Awesome to hear! I recently did this method but with a few days longer than you in each step. Great success
 
The last question answered by Jamil Zainasheff on the most recent Brew Strong 19 Dec, is aligned with my point here. Under ideal conditions, ales are done in 4 days and lagers in 7, according to Zainasheff, co-author with Chris White of "Yeast".

However, to avoid thermal shock flavours from yeast, it's a good idea to come down a few degrees per day to your storage/lagering temp.
I will revise my schedule accordingly.

Ideal means all malt fermentables, good temp control, adequate O2, a big pitch of healthy yeast, and maybe some nutrient (I use servomyces).

I will also note that Jamil pitches yeast commercially at double the normal ale rate, by White Labs standards. He has affirmed that it takes a lot to over pitch (e.g. 5 gal on a whole yeast cake from a 5 gal batch), and separately stated that he pitches a lot of yeast in order to eliminate pitch rate as a variable.
 
I believe he said it would cause the yeast to produce esters. I was under the impression ester production was in the beginning of fermentation.

I recall an earlier episode where Jamil and Tasty where talking about their lagering processes and he made a comment about doing a slow chill or rapidly chill depends on whether you think the yeast is done working or not.

By the time my lagers are ready to crash or cold condition the majority of the yeast is already dropped out to the bottom of the fermentor. I rack off of that yeast and crash/condition in a keg so there is less yeast to worry about if it is actually a problem.
 
ba-brewer said:
I believe he said it would cause the yeast to produce esters. I was under the impression ester production was in the beginning of fermentation.

I recall an earlier episode where Jamil and Tasty where talking about their lagering processes and he made a comment about doing a slow chill or rapidly chill depends on whether you think the yeast is done working or not.

By the time my lagers are ready to crash or cold condition the majority of the yeast is already dropped out to the bottom of the fermentor. I rack off of that yeast and crash/condition in a keg so there is less yeast to worry about if it is actually a problem.
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You're correct...my method assumes the yeast is done. The slow temp change is more from commercial production.
 
This has me a bit confused, I was actually going to start a new thread, but I believe this is relevant to this discussion.

In the latest BYO article there is a sentence in there that recommends a slow ramp (~5F/day) to lager temps to prevent temperature shock and lipid extraction. This is after fermentation is complete.

Am I missing some context here or is the lipid extraction not something that typically leads to off flavors?

And yes your "experience" comment is spot on in my, well, experience :D

In the few lagers I've done, once I've ramped up the temperature for the d-rest and I'm sure there is no more attenuation going on, I keg and crash/carb right down to lagering temps and certainly haven't noticed any off-flavors.

The article made me wonder if there is some improvement to be had by a ramp as opposed to a crash...
 
Any issues with raising temps back up after reaching lager temps (34f)? I swore my gravity was at 1.017 pre ramp down. But I just took it after 4 days at 34f and I'm at 1.027. This is on a Dopplebock with an OG of 1.088, 3L starter and pure O2.
 
Mer-man said:
Oh good. Well I can't ACTUALLY crash anyway so ok, good to hear.

But he did say something to that effect.
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IIRC he said the problems mostly arise when re-pitching the yeast in another beer and that effects becoming more apparent over subsequent generations. Seems like its mostly a commercial concern.
 
MerlinWerks said:
This has me a bit confused, I was actually going to start a new thread, but I believe this is relevant to this discussion.

In the latest BYO article there is a sentence in there that recommends a slow ramp (~5F/day) to lager temps to prevent temperature shock and lipid extraction. This is after fermentation is complete.

Am I missing some context here or is the lipid extraction not something that typically leads to off flavors?

And yes your "experience" comment is spot on in my, well, experience :D

In the few lagers I've done, once I've ramped up the temperature for the d-rest and I'm sure there is no more attenuation going on, I keg and crash/carb right down to lagering temps and certainly haven't noticed any off-flavors.

The article made me wonder if there is some improvement to be had by a ramp as opposed to a crash...
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I think that's likely the BYO article I wrote. No, there is no advantage to a ramp over a crash.
 
I am in the middle of doing this method with my first lager after switching to all grain a few batches ago. My OG was 1.060 and after 7 days at 53F it was 1.015. If my limited understanding of attenuation and math are correct that's an appearent attenuation of 76%. It should have been bumped up in temp at 50%. Will letting it go longer like I did at the cool temps hurt this method at all? Or is this method just to give you the quickest turn around possible and you don't want to rise temp before 50%. Also, the original article was vague on how long to keep at the higher temp. "Fermentation is complete and yeast have cleaned up after themselves" I believe is how it went. Do people regularly check FG and taste or is there more or a generic guide line of X number of days before cooling down?
 
Gusmedic said:
I am in the middle of doing this method with my first lager after switching to all grain a few batches ago. My OG was 1.060 and after 7 days at 53F it was 1.015. If my limited understanding of attenuation and math are correct that's an appearent attenuation of 76%. It should have been bumped up in temp at 50%. Will letting it go longer like I did at the cool temps hurt this method at all? Or is this method just to give you the quickest turn around possible and you don't want to rise temp before 50%. Also, the original article was vague on how long to keep at the higher temp. "Fermentation is complete and yeast have cleaned up after themselves" I believe is how it went. Do people regularly check FG and taste or is there more or a generic guide line of X number of days before cooling down?
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Don't overthink this...you're pretty much done with fermentation. I'd raise the temp to 70 for a couple days, then crash. Also, FWIW, the yeast should clean up during fermentation, not after.
 
Denny said:
Don't overthink this...you're pretty much done with fermentation. I'd raise the temp to 70 for a couple days, then crash. Also, FWIW, the yeast should clean up during fermentation, not after.
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Thanks for the response Denny. I understand don't overthink it, but I'm trying to ask if raising the temp once reaching 50% attenuation is the minimum %, and anytime afterwards is just as fine. Or if 50% is the target and there's a change in results vs raising temps when the yeast is further along.
 
Gusmedic said:
Thanks for the response Denny. I understand don't overthink it, but I'm trying to ask if raising the temp once reaching 50% attenuation is the minimum %, and anytime afterwards is just as fine. Or if 50% is the target and there's a change in results vs raising temps when the yeast is further along.
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Yes, any time after is fine. But in your case, you're past the point where the technique matters to you. It certainly won't hurt anything, though. No, there will be no change in results.
 
Question for you all... I'm trying this method and I increased temp slowly to about 66 degrees on Saturday. The og was 1.045 and the gravity on Saturday was 1.025. I just checked the gravity now as I was going to begin decreasing temp and it's at 1.024. What should I do? The fg should be around 1.011 per kit instructions... thanks!!
 
Lipi128 said:
Question for you all... I'm trying this method and I increased temp slowly to about 66 degrees on Saturday. The og was 1.045 and the gravity on Saturday was 1.025. I just checked the gravity now as I was going to begin decreasing temp and it's at 1.024. What should I do? The fg should be around 1.011 per kit instructions... thanks!!
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Any chance you're measuring with a refractometer? Refracts are greatly affected by the presence of alcohol, so a correction calculation must be done once fermentation has started. The most accurate way to measure SG post fermentation is with a hydrometer.

Brew on :mug:
 
It def was with a refractometer! Hmm I got it to try and avoid taking out such a big sample, but if that's what I need to do then I'll give it a shot! Thanks!
 
So, this is a very old thread, but it seems like the most relevant one. I came across @Brulosopher's Brulosophy article that this thread is about, as well as Kai's post about fermenting lagers.

I'm actually in the middle (towards the end) of diacetyl rest for my first lager! (I'm very excited). I'm curious what folks think about Kai's section on cold conditioning before bottling, vs bottle conditioning before cold conditioning. His page says the yeast may end up being far enough past its prime that another yeast addition would be necessary for the former, which makes me want to bottle before lagering.

Has anybody bottled conditioned before lagering or tried both approaches? Does anybody have any commentary on how well the yeast did and if there were any noticeable/significant effects on the flavor?
 

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