OT Purgatory: Lets talk Overpopulation.

Modded:
Moved OT from https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=28887

Neomich said:

Regardless of what someone's views on Global warming may be, I think if the world only had a fraction of the population it does now, everyone would be better off. Yeah, I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but c'mon it's easier to support 3 billion people than 6+. I don't believe the Constitution included the right to procreate at will.

Personally, I don't think we have enough solid data to claim 'Global Warming'.

On a lighter note, I thought global warming was directly linked to the disappearance of pirates? LOL

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Are you kidding me?

Neomich said:

Regardless of what someone's views on Global warming may be, I think if the world only had a fraction of the population it does now, everyone would be better off.

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A lower population would be a good thing especially from a resource perspective. Even though I recycle and try my best to not pollute, drive a very fuel efficient car, and so forth, I'm still amazed at how much I throw away. Think about what happens when a few more billion are added to the planet.

I agree 100% with the guys that were talking about leaving things better than how you got them. I enjoy the great outdoors and it really bothers me when people throw their crap everywhere.

njnear76 said:

A lower population would be a good thing especially from a resource perspective. Even though I recycle and try my best to not pollute, drive a very fuel efficient car, and so forth, I'm still amazed at how much I throw away. Think about what happens when a few more billion are added to the planet.

I agree 100% with the guys that were talking about leaving things better than how you got them. I enjoy the great outdoors and it really bothers me when people throw their crap everywhere.

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sorry, but there is plenty of room on this earth for people other than yourselves. Claiming a lower population would be better is selfish, imo.

Ó Flannagáin said:

Are you kidding me?

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No, I'm not kidding. I don't recall that the constitution granted anyone rights to procreate just because they could. Having kids just because you're physically capable of breeding is selfish.

If you're mature enough and responsible enough to raise a family, then by all means have at it. How many people are really mature and responsible enough to have children and raise them? Some are, some aren't. There may be room, but the resources are limited and most of those are not renewable.

Ó Flannagáin said:

sorry, but there is plenty of room on this earth for people other than yourselves. Claiming a lower population would be better is selfish, imo.

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A tremendous population increase most likely means resource wars and poverty. I don't find it selfish ensuring that there is enough available so that more people can have a quality life. Maybe families should be limited to one or two kids. That's all I'm saying.

Neomich said:

If you're mature enough and responsible enough to raise a family, then by all means have at it. How many people are really mature and responsible enough to have children and raise them? Some are, some aren't. There may be room, but the resources are limited and most of those are not renewable.

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Hmmmm... The problem is that most people don't think things through. A kid is a huge responsibility. I believe if you have a kid you owe it to society that you are going to feed, educate, and instill good hard working values in them. When people fail to do so they are infringing on everyone else's right to live in a well ordered society.

The problem is that some people claim that they have the right to be a drain on society. I don't agree with the sponges. They should get a job.

Neomich said:

No, I'm not kidding. I don't recall that the constitution granted anyone rights to procreate just because they could. Having kids just because you're physically capable of breeding is selfish.

If you're mature enough and responsible enough to raise a family, then by all means have at it. How many people are really mature and responsible enough to have children and raise them? Some are, some aren't. There may be room, but the resources are limited and most of those are not renewable.

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The constitution granted freedom, which means we can procreate when we want as much as we want.

njnear76 said:

A tremendous population increase most likely means resource wars and poverty. I don't find it selfish ensuring that there is enough available so that more people can have a quality life. Maybe families should be limited to one or two kids. That's all I'm saying.

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It's selfish when you or someone else has to decide who is a waste of space and who isn't.

O Flannagain said:

The constitution granted freedom, which means we can procreate when we want as much as we want.

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So why don't I have the right not to support them?

Ó Flannagáin said:

The constitution granted freedom, which means we can procreate when we want as much as we want.

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True. But is it really practical to have 11 kids and have no means to provide for them? Is it fair to the other hard working people in the community to provide for them?

njnear76 said:

True. But is it really practical to have 11 kids and have no means to provide for them? Is it fair to the other hard working people in the community to provide for them?

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Life isn't fair, and it's not up to everyone else in the community to provide for them. If you want to turn away and not do anything, you don't have to and most people don't.

rohanski said:

So why don't I have the right not to support them?

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Hell yea you do! But, it doesn't mean you can take away their rights.

Ó Flannagáin said:

Hell yea you do! But, it doesn't mean you can take away their rights.

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Ummmm... We are paying in the form of taxes for their health care, education, housing, etc... If these kids end up being dead beats making even more dead beats, the cost to society is even more.

njnear76 said:

Ummmm... We are paying in the form of taxes for their health care, education, housing, etc...

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Then vote for someone who lowers taxes and doesn't give as much money to the poor. People forgot that we vote for these people who make these policies.

Ó Flannagáin said:

Then vote for someone who lowers taxes and doesn't give as much money to the poor. People forgot that we vote for these people who make these policies.

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Ok. But if you take away that support, the people starve to death. I guess the problem takes care of itself, but it doesn't say much about our society if we let poor people die.

Neomich said:

No, I'm not kidding. I don't recall that the constitution granted anyone rights to procreate just because they could. Having kids just because you're physically capable of breeding is selfish.

If you're mature enough and responsible enough to raise a family, then by all means have at it. How many people are really mature and responsible enough to have children and raise them? Some are, some aren't. There may be room, but the resources are limited and most of those are not renewable.

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So what do you suggest? The government regulate who can procreate and who cant? What happens if one of the one's that cant accidentally does? Or do you make it so they physically cant? I dunno man, seems pretty crackpot to me. Since when did procreation have to be granted in the Constitution?

njnear76 said:

Ok. But if you take away that support, the people starve to death. I guess the problem takes care of itself, but it doesn't say much about our society if we let poor people die.

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People like me won't. There's plenty of Americans who are glad to help the poor, so that people who don't want to don't have to.

You know what? I'm sick and freakin tired of people using the line, "The constitution didn't give us the freedom to _______". Anyone who says that, quite honestly, has NO idea how a constitutional republic works, and should be ashamed to even speak on the topic or even mention the constitution.

The Constitution is based on the principle of "negative rights", not "positive rights". "Positive rights" means that we are born with no rights, and the government grants us a laundry list of things that we are allowed to do, called "rights". This is NOT what the United States is or should be. The country is based on "negative rights", meaning, you are born with infinite rights and the constitution and our laws & codes lay out which ones government is allowed to restrict.

So, the Constitution/ BoR doesn't explicitly give me the right to beat off in the bathtub, but that doesn't mean that I should be arrested for doing so. The BoR lays out specific freedoms that government can not take away, but just because something isn't on that list doesn't mean I don't have the right to do it.

If you want to live in a country where you're only allowed to do the things that the government gives you permission to do, then move to Saudi Arabia. But stop abusing and misconstruing the principles of our republic.

/rant

Ó Flannagáin said:

People like me won't. There's plenty of Americans who are glad to help the poor, so that people who don't want to don't have to.

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Sure we are willing to help, but the more poor people there are the harder it is to take care of them. Also the odds of kids rising above the poverty line becomes harder.

For the record I'm not for fixing people's junk in order to prevent them from breeding. I am for education about birth control and making birth control cheap and available.

njnear76 said:

Sure we are willing to help, but the more poor people there are the harder it is to take care of them. Also the odds of kids rising above the poverty line becomes harder.

For the record I'm not for fixing people's junk in order to prevent them from breeding. I am for education about birth control and making birth control cheap and available.

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Birth control is a tool of the devil! Abstinence is the only way, in the eyes of jebus!

I am way out of sequence thread here, but I recall a radio interview with the folks at MIT (or Harvard?) who originated the population runaway scenario some yrs ago, a best seller book at the time, I think.

They recently studied the subject again, and came with the conclusion that all the world population neds is so many KiloWatts of energy per person -I forget the actual figure - and everybody can survive with a good margin. Their tone was of optimism, as I recall...

Abstinence blows. Yeah lets teach kids to fight/ignore their primative urges instead of teaching them how to handle/channel those urges. My life of Catholic schooling was highlighted by losing my virginity @ 15

Why are we even discussing having kids having anything to do with the Constitution?!?!

Evan! said:

Birth control is a tool of the devil! Abstinence is the only way, in the eyes of jebus!

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Heh. No hidden agenda there, right? I'm sure that organized religion isn't afraid of decling membership.

njnear76 said:

Maybe families should be limited to one or two kids. That's all I'm saying.

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Ever hear of a place called China?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy

Doesn't sound that great to me...

Soulive21 said:

Abstinence blows. Yeah lets teach kids to fight/ignore their primative urges instead of teaching them how to handle/channel those urges. My life of Catholic schooling was highlighted by losing my virginity @ 15

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Raised Catholic too, huh? Catholic grade school to high school. Dude. I had to go to an all boys Catholic high school. That place had a permanent fart smell. I never got touched by a priest thank God, but supposedly there was one touchy-feely there. The priest loved football players. Maybe too much. Taught morality. Go figure.

njnear76 said:

Raised Catholic too, huh? Catholic grade school to high school. Dude. I had to go to an all boys Catholic high school. That place had a permanent fart smell. I never got touched by a priest thank God, but supposedly there was one touchy-feely there. The priest loved football players. Maybe too much. Taught morality. Go figure.

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St Joe's HS here baby. All guys but no football team. I don't remember any constant fart smell either...

Soulive21 said:

St Joe's HS here baby. All guys but no football team. I don't remember any constant fart smell either...

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The funniest thing about my HS is that they took off the bathroom stall doors. I think they worried that people would wank off in them.

njnear76 said:

The funniest thing about my HS is that they took off the bathroom stall doors. I think they worried that people would wank in them.

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Good lord. We just sold ganja to each other in the bathrooms :rockin:

The whole point of amending the Constitution is so when people get really stupid ideas like restricting the amount of children we can have, we can add an amendment that says: The government is not allowed to restrict the number of kids we can have.
THEN END.

This topic really comes back to other views I've expressed. Maybe something like a permit should be required to be a parent. That way, you have to show some sort of ability to raise a child responsibly. You gotta have a permit for just about anything you want to do as it is, why not require people to be accountable for bringing new people into this world?

I'm very supportive of individual rights and keeping the government out of everyone's life especially mine. But when other people's choices start negatively affecting my choices, something has to be done.

Soulive21 said:

Good lord. We just sold ganja to each other in the bathrooms :rockin:

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Lots of drugs in my school too.

Neomich said:

No, I'm not kidding. I don't recall that the constitution granted anyone rights to procreate just because they could. Having kids just because you're physically capable of breeding is selfish.

If you're mature enough and responsible enough to raise a family, then by all means have at it. How many people are really mature and responsible enough to have children and raise them? Some are, some aren't. There may be room, but the resources are limited and most of those are not renewable.

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I think that having children just so you can collect more welfare is selfish, I have seen many times over families that are collecting money from the government and doing absolutly nothing to better improve thier station in life because it easier to sit at home and pop out kids and collect a check then to actually go out and find a job.

If you want population controll try checking this out, specifically the "Policy Measures" and the "Problems with Policy" pages, seems to be working for them, maybe we can get all the people who belive in that to move there and ease some of the burden on the american public.


Cheers

So what would you advocate for someone who gets pregnant without a "permit"?.......

Neomich said:

This topic really comes back to other views I've expressed. Maybe something like a permit should be required to be a parent. That way, you have to show some sort of ability to raise a child responsibly. You gotta have a permit for just about anything you want to do as it is, why not require people to be accountable for bringing new people into this world?

I'm very supportive of individual rights and keeping the government out of everyone's life especially mine. But when other people's choices start negatively affecting my choices, something has to be done.

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The thing to be done would be to stop providing for parents who make bad choices, not to restrict people from having kids.

Neomich said:

This topic really comes back to other views I've expressed. Maybe something like a permit should be required to be a parent. That way, you have to show some sort of ability to raise a child responsibly. You gotta have a permit for just about anything you want to do as it is, why not require people to be accountable for bringing new people into this world?

I'm very supportive of individual rights and keeping the government out of everyone's life especially mine. But when other people's choices start negatively affecting my choices, something has to be done.

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Agreed. I don't know how you do it without being overly intrusive. I think free access to birth control coupled with sex education is the best route.

Fact is, there is virtually no organic population growth in the U.S. Growth in the overall population rate here (and in Europe) mostly comes from immigration, which is a whole other hot-button topic I hope never gets discussed in these parts...

the_bird said:

So what would you advocate for someone who gets pregnant without a "permit"?.......

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I don't know, I don't have all the answers. There may not even be a good answer. If people just took it upon themselves to be accountable for everything they do, this would solve itself.

Plus, is having a child a RIGHT or a PRIVILEDGE? I'm not really sure.....

the_bird said:

Fact is, there is virtually no organic population growth in the U.S. Growth in the overall population rate here (and in Europe) mostly comes from immigration, which is a whole other hot-button topic I hope never gets discussed in these parts...

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I think the people of New York were ready to hang their governor over the immigrant driving license issue. Very touchy issue.

Neomich said:

I don't know, I don't have all the answers. There may not even be a good answer. If people just took it upon themselves to be accountable for everything they do, this would solve itself.

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That would pretty much solve all of the world's problems!