Derek Dellinger's Goatpants

I brewed this recipe Sunday, according to his specifications. My yeast pitch isn't quite so precise, but I think I've approximated it with a combination of Belle Saison, wild lacto, and dregs from a couple of Crooked Stave beers.

It's a low gravity Saison with no boil hops and a hefty dose of dry hop citra.

Anybody ever attempted this recipe, or one like it? Care to share your experience, if so?

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2014/06/dry-hopped-sour-farmhouse-ale-recipe.html

View attachment 1432082055365.jpg

I've got something similar going now. Brewed about a month ago, so no results yet. I have a thread going here: Petite Farmhouse

Basically subbed Vienna for the rye in the Goatpants recipe and I used TYB Farmhouse Sour and their Beersel Brett blend, pitched together.

Still thinking about what to dry hop it with. Might wait to see what flavors the yeast/bugs bring to the table.

BGBC said:

I've got something similar going now. Brewed about a month ago, so no results yet. I have a thread going here: Petite Farmhouse

Basically subbed Vienna for the rye in the Goatpants recipe and I used TYB Farmhouse Sour and their Beersel Brett blend, pitched together.

Still thinking about what to dry hop it with. Might wait to see what flavors the yeast/bugs bring to the table.

Click to expand...

Interesting. How'd you settle on those blends?

Guess you're about a month ahead of me. We'll have to compare notes.

BTW the pic in the first post is about 16 hours after pitching. I built up a starter with a gallon of Belgian pale ale. In the pic, you can see the lacto climbing the carboy walls in the background. The Belle Saison was cranking away about 8 hours later.

I had read the Bear Flavored post when it was first posted, but didn't look back at it until after I started developing the recipe.

I basically wanted a relatively quick fermenting (low gravity, no Pedio), tart (yes Lacto), slightly funky (hi fruity Brett strains) Saison (um, saison yeast). I couldn't find anyone putting it all together in one blend, but those two from TYB seemed to fit the bill.

Makes sense. In a way, I do regret not exercising a bit more control over the mix of organisms I pitched, but, conversely, I'm hoping this results in a fairly quick acting (2 months?) house saison blend. If so, I could see keeping a batch of something in the carboy at all times, with this culture.

I've seen various people say that CS has some pedio in at least some of their bottles. My house sour culture started with mostly CS dregs, but I wanted to use something different since I know I have some pedio in there (either from CS or Jester King).

Considering the low OG of the recipe, it should still finish relatively quickly either way though.

Yeah, I'm almost certain they use pedio at CS, though I'm not sure whether there's any viable bacteria in the dregs.

Talking to someone at Crooked Stave, he seemed sure that a beer brewed with these dregs could be turned around in as little as a month, though 2 months was recommended.

That's great to hear. I have a starter of their sours and a starter of Vielle and Surette that I'm stepping up today. I've been enjoying my own Brett/Lacto blends taking only about 2 mos. Pedio scares me a little, as it usually takes longer...

Not that I don't have a closet full of the long-term stuff. Out of sight, out of mind.

Forgot to include what I actually brewed in the original post.

6 lbs 2-row
14 oz white wheat
14 oz rye malt

OG 1.038
5 minute boil

0 hops...this will get some sort of heavy dry hop, just before bottling. I really like the idea of a big Citra addition in the fermenter, but I'm considering using Cascade, in some capacity, as well.

The pic in the OP was taken about 16 hours after pitching, and a few hours before the Belle Saison destroyed my beautiful pellicle.

Two weeks in, and there's very little airlock activity, and no surface activity that I can see through the carboy. How soon is it prudent to take a reading? Three weeks? A month?

I posted this elsewhere, but as I consider when to start looking at finishing this up, Dellinger's post on his site has me interested. Seems he let his first batch go almost 3 months, but it was likely done long before that.

If you wanted to bottle sooner, I have a feeling it would be ready earlier. Whenever gravity stabilizes, you can bottle it. I think the 3 month mark is giving it a safe cushion. Maybe start checking gravity every couple weeks after the 4 week mark?

youreanimpulse said:

That's great to hear. I have a starter of their sours and a starter of Vielle and Surette that I'm stepping up today. I've been enjoying my own Brett/Lacto blends taking only about 2 mos. Pedio scares me a little, as it usually takes longer...

Click to expand...

Yeah, I thought that was really ambitious, but if I understand correctly, they're turning around their ales in relatively short amounts of time.

BGBC said:

If you wanted to bottle sooner, I have a feeling it would be ready earlier. Whenever gravity stabilizes, you can bottle it. I think the 3 month mark is giving it a safe cushion. Maybe start checking gravity every couple weeks after the 4 week mark?

Click to expand...

I think I'll attempt a schedule something like this. My thought is that somewhere around 6 weeks is where I'll start taking readings, and maybe continue that until the 8 or 9 week mark, at which point, I should be ready to bottle. I have a couple of other beers ahead of this one in the pipeline, so there's no big hurry, but I'd definitely like to be drinking it while summer is still in full swing.

This Sunday will mark 6 weeks since I started this beer, and it will probably mark the first of at least 2 (probably 3) weekly gravity readings. I'm encouraged by bottling a pale ale that was brewed with this exact mixture 2 months ago, with a higher OG, that progressed and stabilized quickly. That one came out brightly tart, with a background funk that I assume will come more to the fore as it ages.

So my question is this: What is the recommendation for the amount of dry-hopping this should get? The original recipe suggests 4oz of Citra. I love a dry-hopped saison like nothing else, but does that seem like overkill? I have the hops, but I don't want to use 4oz, when 2oz might do just as well.

depends on how much you like citra I guess. I usually go moderate dry hopping on all ym saisons, if any. I like them for the yeast character. If I want a punch fo hops, Ill drink an IPA.

I think 2oz would be fine

m00ps said:

depends on how much you like citra I guess. I usually go moderate dry hopping on all ym saisons, if any. I like them for the yeast character. If I want a punch fo hops, Ill drink an IPA.

I think 2oz would be fine

Click to expand...

Interesting. Even given that these would be the only hops in this beer?

Sure, the dry hops will only be competing with the funky wild aroma of the beer. 4oz may be enough to mask it while 2oz may let them both be detectable

Cross-pollinating threads here, but I've been thinking about the same question for my petite farmhouse. I signed up for the AHA using their free hop code and am hoping the 4 oz of each Azacca and Jarrylo arrives soon for this. I'm thinking a few ounces of Azacca might be an interesting addition.

I debated posting there, actually, as I'm itching for an update on yours. You think you'll toss in the whole package of Azacca? That does sound really interesting. I'm torn between trying to be as prudent and frugal with a more expensive hop and sticking as closely to the original recipe as I can, since it's my first time through.

No update for now. Trying to schedule the right time to bottle, since the beer is at my friend's place.

Might split the difference and go with 3 oz dry hop, just so I can maybe play with the leftover in a small batch SMaSH or something.

Yeah, it'll probably just come down to a gut call, made as the hops are going into the fermenter, for me. I'll post a reading in a couple of days.

I checked this today. It's at 1.006, adjusted. 1.004 at 75F.

Let me tell you, this thing is tart and dry. Imagine lemonade without the sugar, but dry like a shot of gin. My mouth is watering just thinking about that sample in the refrigerator. I can't wait to see what a big shot of citra hops will do for this beer. I'm thinking I might just go all out and put 4oz of hops in it.

Meant to attach this.

View attachment 1435540933422.jpg

Took another reading yesterday. Still at 1.006, adjusted for temp.

This time I let it chill most of the day before drinking the sample. Let me tell you, this beer is bracingly sour. It makes my jaw tense up. It's literally slightly painful.

I love it.

Guess it's time to make a decision. Think I'm probably going to continue the recipe, as written by Dellinger, and do 4 ounces of citra. He prescribes 8 days, but that's considerably more than I usually dry-hop. Any thoughts on letting them go that long before bottling?

There has been some discussion of low ph in sour beers slowing the absorption of dry hop aromas and flavors, but nothing definitive has been published that I have seen anyway. Not sure if there is any real truth to it, but I have seen temperature affect dry hopping time (colder takes longer for me). I don't think waiting 8 days will cause any issues for you.

Here's my thinking:

I can do 8 days, though it will delay my bottling by a week, as I'll have to toss in the hops this Friday and plan to bottle the following Saturday.

However, if the extra time won't really benefit anything, I can potentially rack tonight, add hops, and bottle this weekend.

Decided on 7 to 8 days, but life got in the way. I'm going to rack this to a bucket today with a hop bag full of citra hops, and I plan to bottle in a week.

Now, what to do with the slurry?

Racked today and added 4oz citra. Collected a little under 5 gallons in the bucket
View attachment 1436731618937.jpg

and more than a cup of special sauce in a pint jar.
View attachment 1436731632810.jpg

I've stretched out this process slightly longer than I originally meant to, but it can only help the development of the funky character I'm hoping will eventually come through. My entire garage smells like the most pungent, tart grapefruits, even this morning. The combination of sour with the juicy, fruity, citric aroma of the hops made me want to drink straight from the bottling bucket. I refrained, for the most part.

Now, a couple of pics of the pellicle. You can see the hop bag peaking through in the first pic.





I hate this part, but until we have more space, I'm stuck with bottles. Besides that, with sours, I imagine I'll always bottle. Got just fewer than 50 bottles out of this batch.



In a few weeks, I'm sure, I'll go ahead and start a new batch of this recipe. The next one will get fruit. Peaches or raspberries, I think, would work really well with this. It'll also give me a chance to play around with the dry hops. Cascade is my go-to, and I think it would work well with this recipe.

I wonder, now, if this sour culture would work in a more traditional farmhouse or belgian saison recipe. Something like a rye saison or a Tank 7 clone comes to mind. I could leave it in primary until late winter and then store the bottles until next summer.

Taking some bottles of this to a friend of mine this weekend, almost 4 weeks after bottling. I haven't tried it since the initial partial bottle, after a week of conditioning, which was really just a test of whether it was carbing up well, which it was.

We're going to brew up an imperial saison (think 9%-10%). I want to push this culture and see what it will do, given 6 or 7 months to work.

Just an update, until I get around to brewing this again (and I definitely will):

The beer is still amazingly sour. Like, I've never had anything like it, and I've had some really good, sour commercial sours. It's completely out of balance, but I didn't brew this for balance, and it works, somehow.

A couple of weeks ago, I brewed the beer mentioned above. Pushed OG up over 1.07, and if this attenuates like I expect (given the high amount of sugar in the wort), it'll be a strong, sour beer next spring.

I plan to brew this beer again sometime this fall, with modifications:

so you got a full-on sour flavor in under 2 months? Ive been trying to dial in a good process to get a quick sour without messing around with sour worting. So far, the sour culture i made seems to be up to the challenge. Even the starter wort is moderately sour at 2 weeks
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=543576

m00ps said:

so you got a full-on sour flavor in under 2 months? Ive been trying to dial in a good process to get a quick sour without messing around with sour worting. So far, the sour culture i made seems to be up to the challenge. Even the starter wort is moderately sour at 2 weeks
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=543576

Click to expand...

Oh, definitely.

My sour culture consists of:

1. Belle Saison
2. Dregs from one bottle of Crooked Stave (Vielle or Surette...don't remember)
3. My house sour culture - pulled from a finished batch of sauerkraut, this culture will sour a cup of starter wort (1.020) in a week and drops crystal clear.

I mixed these strains in a gallon batch of Belgian pale ale, and pitched the slurry from that batch into my saison. After 9 weeks in primary, it was like drinking a Warhead candy. Carbonation softens the sourness a little.

I just repitched the culture this time around, since I intend to let it age in the carboy until next spring, but next time I'll replenish the sacc.

Cheers, y'all!

View attachment 1443023249867.jpg

Time to rebrew this, so I can have it ready for the summer. I'm going to make a few changes this time.

First, I'm thinking of subbing in oats for either the wheat or the rye. I'm leaning toward losing the wheat, but it's really appreciate suggestions.

Next, my saved culture is giving me a strong vinegar smell, so I might have an opportunity to do something different here. I could rebuild the culture from one of my few remaining bottles, or I could stay from scratch. I have some brett B saved, as well as two wild sour cultures I like a lot. Added to a wild strain I was given by a nearby brewery, I think I have all the pieces to make this a real farmhouse sour.

Next, I'm all out of Citra, and I don't think I'll order more before Spring. In the spirit of farmhouse brewing, I'll use what I have on hand, namely, cascade and centennial. Anybody every dry hop a saison with centennial?

Last, lately all my sours have been split half onto fruit at bottling time, and this will be no different. I know I should wait to taste the bet before deciding, but I'm pumped at the prospect of having some fresh plums available for secondary.

Centennial or a centennial/cascade combo would be good, I think.

BGBC said:

Centennial or a centennial/cascade combo would be good, I think.

Click to expand...

Never used centennial for dry hops. I used 4oz Citra on the last batch. If I use centennial alone or in a combo, think it needs to be dialed back?

burninator said:

Never used centennial for dry hops. I used 4oz Citra on the last batch. If I use centennial alone or in a combo, think it needs to be dialed back?

Click to expand...

Was the Citra aroma too much?