Wine Tannin?

Should tannin be added before or after fermentation?

Before is best. But it's near impossible to gauge how much you will need in the finished product unless you are repeating a recipe. Otherwise just add it to taste right before bottling. Be sure to stir well and keep an eye on the bottom of the bottling container, tannin has a bad habit of not dissolving well and settling at the bottom.

I use it both before and after, depending on how much I need. You can add it any time, but it's often best to add it at racking to make sure it mixes. You can take out a little of the cider with a sanitized turkey baster, stir the tannin in well, and gently add it back also. That works well.

You don't need much at all, so start with a tiny amount at first- like no more than 1/4 teaspoon per 5 gallons- and then taste 12 hours later. Add more if desired. Remember, you can always add more, but you can't take it out!

You can add tannin both before and/or after.
Adding tannin in cider is similar to adding tannin in wine.

There are two types of tannins and both have their place ... one is the type of tannin from grapes and the other type is from wood - usually oak.
The tannin powder most people get from the brewers/winemakers store is generally the *grape* type unless specified otherwise.

Grape tannin is typically added before ferment (particularly with wine) ... Oak tannins typically after ... although if all you have is the grape type, you could use that after as well to carefully adjust to taste.

Grape tannin in particular adds a more bitter element as it is derived from catechins in the stems and seeds of grapes.
This is why if you are *not* getting the tannic bitterness from the apples, and decide to add grape tannin powder, you should be careful with the additions. Grape tannin can make your wine or cider bitter quickly if overdone.
You should also be careful if you add oak tannin too, even though the “hydrolyzable” type of tannins that oak adds are softer and add more favorable flavors and aromas without the tendency to quite as much bitterness.
While the bitterness of both types of tannin will mellow over time, the corresponding rise in astringency in that molecular change as it ages will seem greater with the grape tannin because it already has added more astringency to begin with. (astringency is the perception of dryness in the taste of wine or cider - or if really too astringent, "roughness")

For taste, having an adequate amount of tannin can balance and improve the brightness of the cider without necessarily having to add additional acid, as tannin tends to slightly reinforce the taste of acidity. Both acidity and bitterness (and astringency to some degree) are what avoids a cider being insipid or “flabby”.
Tannins also help protect against oxidization and the oxidized browning of cider by scavenging oxygen ... especially after fermentation. A good thing if you expect to hold or age the cider at all.

Personally, when I add tannin after fermentation I add the type of tannin from oak ... either oak cubes, chips or powder but I like cubes the best.
You still have to be careful when doing this ... err on the side of too little rather than too much. A half ounce medium toast french oak (or American) cubes for 3 to 5 gallons in the secondary and let sit for 2 to 4 weeks, tasting periodically to gauge the speed that the oak is taking effect. Then, rack off the oak when it is to your liking.
Importantly, not every addition works the same and keeping track by taste is important.
Oak cubes give out their effect more slowly than chips and so you can control them more easily. I’d suggest avoiding oaking *powder* entirely ... but the powder is available too and works ok if you’re careful.

If it’s a big batch of cider and you haven’t oaked cider before, consider making a part of that batch with *no* additional tannin or oaking at all, so that if you have to blend to get the flavor right at the end (that is, blend out some of the effects of too much tannin), you will have part of the batch to do that with.
This is a good idea too if you are adding grape tannin to a large batch that you don’t want to have to correct by fining out the tannin later as well.

Personally, I use grape tannin before the ferment ... and the oak tannin from “oaking” after primary ferment.
You can use both ... but me mindful of the cumulative amount of tannin ... and that if you end up with too much you might need to fine-out (with fining agents) or blend-out excess tannin with cider that has not had it added.

Hi there, first of all let me congratulate you for the lovely forum you have created.

I am living in Bulgaria and the only apples you get here are desert apples which lack natural tannins. The first batch of cider I've made was surprisingly good but a bit more apple wine than cider- nearly 14% alc... Nice!!!

For the second trial, I've decide to add some wine tannin to my apple juice.

The worry I have is that, by adding the tannins to the must (at the beginning of fermentation) the oxygen needed for the yeast to do it's magic might not be enough.

Would it be necessary to "turn" the cider (like you do when making red wine) so the oxygen can go in and help the yeast "work"?!

So please share if you have any advice about that issue of mine!
Thank you in advance,
Rossen

While tannin does bind with oxygen and consequently can assist in slowing long term oxidation, you are not likely to have any yeast-oxygenation problems with adding tannin during primary fermentation.
Just make sure you are using an open-top fermenter (such as a food grade 5 gallon bucket) and providing the other fermenting conditions (temperature, nutrients etc) which is required by the yeast strain you are using.

As far as "punching down" the cap, if you are not fermenting on the apple pulp and skins then no, there is no need to turn the cider. If you had a cap of solids then you do need to turn it under to avoid problems with infection and also to obtain the best extraction of color & flavor etc from the pulp ... but if you are just using cider/juice, then that turning will only serve to potentially over-oxygenate your must/cider.

... and btw: welcome to HBT!

Thank you for the swift reply Jacob,

I'm using apple juice (no pulp) which has a very low pH. The low pH I've compensated by adding tartaric acid(at my previous trial)
Would it be a problem adding tannins considering that I am adding acids to the juice before fermentation as well. (of course I will add yeast and nutrients as well)

Regards

Rossen

P.S. Jacob, wouldn't be risky using an open top fermenter, considering the bacteria which can get in and the abundance of oxygen that can help it thrive...

the_Barberian said:

Thank you for the swift reply Jacob,

I'm using apple juice (no pulp) which has a very low pH. The low pH I've compensated by adding tartaric acid(at my previous trial)
Would it be a problem adding tannins considering that I am adding acids to the juice before fermentation as well. (of course I will add yeast and nutrients as well)

Regards

Rossen

P.S. Jacob, wouldn't be risky using an open top fermenter, considering the bacteria which can get in and the abundance of oxygen that can help it thrive...

Click to expand...

"Low pH" means “high” acid. (so to speak)

I assume you mean your apple juice has high pH (that is, not so much acid) ... ? ... and so you added some tartaric.

(And by the way, if you are adding acid prior to fermentation you should have some pH test tape to measure the effect of the acid on pH.)

Too low a pH (that is, too high of acid) can cause your ferment to stall.
As far as tannins and the ferment ... tannins do not specifically cause problems with the yeast being successful.

To help insure the success of your yeast, you don’t want your pH much lower than about 3.4 or so. Adding too much acid can cause it to be too low; and in fact as the ferment progresses, the cider can become even lower pH on its own ... risking your yeast stalling.

A good starting number is somewhere between 3.5 and 3.7 ... you want the number high enough for your yeast to be happy ... but low enough that the pH also helps prevent infection. Like I say ... you need to be measuring the number with test tape if you are going to be adjusting the pH. Much more about pH and measuring it can be found on this forum if you read-around.

As far as the open top fermenter:
You would stretch a thin piece of clean cloth (such as a t-shirt) over the top of the bucket to keep things from falling in it ... to keep fruit flies and other bugs out etc.
Bacteria is not specifically more likely to get in with an open top fermenter ... keeping bacteria from taking hold has mostly to do with following all the other proper sanitation procedures with how you clean all your equipment. Some other practices too such as the use of sulfites, choice of yeast, pH, temperatures etc ... much of that information can be found on this website and generally by doing the “homework” to learn it from reading at length.

But again ... avoiding infections has much do with how well you keep your equipment clean and sanitized ... and by not sticking unsanitized things into the cider that will introduce bacteria such as unsanitized spoons, your unwashed hands, contact with unsanitized tubing etc etc.

As far as oxygen getting in with an open top fermenter .... as the cider is fermenting it gives off carbon dioxide which helps prevent the oxygen from the air from getting into the cider and causing problems (generally at the surface). Furthermore, all yeast produce their own sulfites, some more than others; and that also helps protect your cider. Yeast are generally happiest with the exposure to oxygen from the open top fermenter; and the happier your yeast are the more likely they will be able to overcome other organisms with a successful fermentation.

Fermenting cider is notorious for getting an unpleasant sulfur odor if you do not provide very good conditions for the yeast. One of those conditions is having enough oxygen for the yeast to use. Good oxygen is your apple juice having some free oxygen in it to begin with .... this is sometimes done by shaking or stirring the hell out of your juice before you add the yeast ... adequate oxygen is also helped by having your primary fermenter open.

No shortcuts for all the research. Read, read and read some more.

Thank you Jacob!
Very nice of you taking the time to answer my questions.

I am doing a wine tannin experimentation right now... I've added various amounts to 4 batches and will see what they come out like. Should be interesting.

My hunch is that we generally do not add nearly enough of the stuff. I am generally skeptical that anyone could possibly identify the difference that 1/4 tsp of tannin powder makes in 5 gallons. That kind of dosage is appropriate for wine because the grapes naturally have lots of tannin, but most apples have almost none.

Unless you live in the UK or France, your apple juice will have very little tannin, and all the cider-making books specify that ideal cider juice is very tannic. Some of the apples are even called "spitters" because they are too bitter to eat. So I'm trying out 1/4, 1/2, 1 and 1.5 tsp per gallon in my test batches... can't wait to taste the results!

Anybody used black tea in their cider to get some tannin in there?

Rhu, I have tried that and I do not notice it at all. I even soaked a bunch of loose-leaf tea in a batch of juice for 48 hours, strained it out and fermented, and I can't taste it at all. I've also done the "super strong steeped tea" addition to 5 gallons and I similarly got nothing. I bet if you looked into the science, you'd find that the actual amount of tannic acid added by tea is fairly low, which is why wine powder (or liquid tannin) gives it so much more kick.

I like UK-style ciders though, so I obviously add more than your average person.

After doing a bit of research..turns out that the tannin in tea is not tannic acid...but is the same as the tannin compound found in oak bark which according to Wikipedia (that most noble of sources) is in fact Quercitannic acid...

So that's probably why you can't taste it...it's not there....and I've just wasted some of my incredibly precious Yorkshire tea bags...ho hum...Just means I'll have to start another batch and see if I can't convince someone to smuggle some real tannic acid out to me.

Hey Rhu,

That's great to know, I was actually wondering about that. I've had conversations with Andrew Lea about this, and he's assured me that there could never be a synthetic substitute for naturally occurring apple tannin, which interacts with the must in incredibly complex ways. I should stress that I am no expert and that you may well have not wasted anything... perhaps the tea bags will do a great job anyway!

Apparently it gets far more more complicated as quernicitannic acid is a hangover from the 1800's and can have a molecular weight anywhere from 500 to 20000...so it covers a massive range of compounds...

I don't know about never being able to synthesise the tannin found in apples, but identifying exactly which ones, and in what quantity they are present...and then reproducing the blend could be a significant challenge. Especially as apples, being biological, will differ in the blend they contain depending on a million different variables. Certainly it should be possible -given the time and the resources and the inclination- to identify the most commonly occurring tannins within the apple family (for a given definition of tannin-there seem to be several, although it seems likely that hydroxylated polyphenols are integral) and synthesise them. However, that would be a generic 'apple tannin' blend without all of the complexity the the humble apple provides. To get the specificity and the blends correct by apple species would probably be a life's work...and you still wouldn't have all of the 'tannin's' that could possibly be present in your blend....

Who knows..I'm no chemist, I just count fish and watch coral move. Andrew Lea has a vast quantity of experience behind him. I'd go along with anything he says.

Just an update if anyone is still reading this... I just now tasted and bottled a test batch made with nottingham and orchard juice. It is 8 weeks old. It had an entire teaspoon of wine tannin powder added and vigorously dissolved before fermentation, and the slightly unpleasant bitterness that was evident at 4 weeks is gone at 8. Now there's just a nice puckery tannic edge to it. Everyone's taste is different of course, but I don't think that 1 tsp/gal is too much at all. I'll update when I get the results from other batches.

Hey man,

Just wondering how the batch with 1.5 tsp/gallon is fairing? Does it appear to have affected the ferment at all?

The 1.5/tsp is still fermenting, it was started at a later date. And no, it has not affected the ferment. I suspect though that this is on the high end of what could be palatable. It's enough to make the juice noticeably bitter on its own, pre-ferment. But who knows?

Nonetheless, for an english-style I am starting to suspect that lots of wine tannin is as close as we're going to get without the apples. I've also learned that what is sold as "liquid tannin" is just powdered tannin with water added for dilution. Pointless to buy that, might as well make your own solution.

Just tasted the 1.5 tsp, it's probably down to 1.012 or so, and the apple sweetness plus the tannin are mixing beautifully. Not overly bitter at all.

oljimmy said:

I am doing a wine tannin experimentation right now... I've added various amounts to 4 batches and will see what they come out like. Should be interesting.

My hunch is that we generally do not add nearly enough of the stuff. I am generally skeptical that anyone could possibly identify the difference that 1/4 tsp of tannin powder makes in 5 gallons. That kind of dosage is appropriate for wine because the grapes naturally have lots of tannin, but most apples have almost none.

Unless you live in the UK or France, your apple juice will have very little tannin, and all the cider-making books specify that ideal cider juice is very tannic. Some of the apples are even called "spitters" because they are too bitter to eat. So I'm trying out 1/4, 1/2, 1 and 1.5 tsp per gallon in my test batches... can't wait to taste the results!

Click to expand...

How did the lower tannin ones turn out? I am taking some of my friends more sensitive palates into account here and think a little less tannin might be better.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Home Brew mobile app

Hey Brewski,

Results aren't 100% in yet, but for ordinary North American juice I just can't see how at least 1/4tsp per gallon could hurt. If you do the math, the tannic acid contributed by that is very small relative to the so-called 'ideal' levels. It just contributes to the complexity and mouthfeel. I personally will never do less than 1/2 tsp/gallon again unless I know that the apple juice comes from cider apples. I'll post more when I finish the tests up.

Rhu said:

Anybody used black tea in their cider to get some tannin in there?

Click to expand...

Sometimes I do.

From cider.org ...
Is tannin in cider important?
That rather depends on where you're coming from. Many traditional ciders such as those from Germany, Switzerland and the East of England have quite low levels of tannin. Most modern 'factory' ciders have rather little. But traditional ciders from NW France and SW England have noticeably higher levels, so the cider is markedly astringent to most people's taste, especially if it's 'dry' (unsweetened). ... But if you want to make a traditional English West Country style of cider, you really have to use some high tannin apples. And, even if you don't, some tannin in a cider is highly desirable or it simply becomes too insipid for anyone's taste. (http://www.cider.org.uk/tannin.htm)

As that page suggests ... it really is a matter of personal tastes ... and if you read further on that page, for practical purposes it is the “total” tannins and phenolics ... not duplicating the specific ones in specific proportions, that they are mostly interested in.
While the specifics may represent the varietal, the growing conditions, the geographic area and the techniques and care the cidery uses ... for our purposes I’m not sure it really allows us to compare “apples to apples” (sorry). It’s a matter of what tastes good to you.

That having been said ...

First, it is worth noting that tannin content is *markedly* affected by what you do during grinding, during any maceration ... and whether you fine-out any of those compounds when you fine or clear your cider ... so of course too, whether you are trying to make hard cider from store-bought apple juice, or something less refined.

We take it out just to struggle to put it back in.

So when we put it back in, what guideline should be used, and as the OP asked ... is using tea worthwhile?

The predominant tannin in tea is also one of the tannins in grape skins/grape tannin, and also in wood based tannins (powder, cubes, barrels, whathaveyou) ... it is epigallocatechin gallate or EGCG ... though wine has a great many more related compounds which affect wine for bitterness, astringency, flavor and other macerative and anti-oxidant aspects ... that common tannin is in fact one of them ... and is a member of the family of cousins which rule Tea-Land ... the Catechin family.

Oak type tannins from oaking in barrels or adding other forms of wood tannin are significantly created from gallic acid in the wood ... that gallic acid is one of the “parents”, so to speak of the EGCG noted above. That gallic acid is also present in the tea leaves too.

The result of all this chemistry is to eventually produce some of the phenolic compounds that flavor wine or cider.

So yes, in cider, as well as in grape wine, there are flavor qualities which are affected by the chemicals found in tea ... and as noted this is related to the effect of the sort of hydrolysable tannin in wood.

That EGCG is also a potent anti-oxidant ... with all of those attendant effects for aging, avoiding oxidative color change etc (though the dynamics of most of the colorant chemistry involved in red wine would not be pertinent in cider, a whole different ball of wax.).

The most common behind the scenes effects of the tannins ... total tannins ... noticeable in the taste of the cider are arguably bitterness and astringency. The effects of the *tea* do contribute to that interplay of bitterness and astringency ... and with a tendency to become hydrolyzed and “phenolic” over time.

So should you use tea leaves in cider? ... sure.
There are benefits from it ... but as the chemistry varies from cider to cider and tea-bag to tea-bag, the final arbiter of whether it’s worth doing is in the tasting.
I’ve used Constant Comment brand in various batches over the years, a tea which provides other subtle flavoring as well.

If you are really concerned about doing it the “right”way ... get the right apple varietal from your chosen region, from your chosen “vintage” or crop, and use the proper techniques of grinding, enzymes, temperature, maceration etc to obtain the tannic effect you want.

Otherwise ... just add tannin back to taste.
Keep careful notes ... Keep a small part of your batch un-treated so you can have a “baseline” to compare results to, side-by-side at taste-testing time. Train your palate to note the difference between bitter and astringent.

The complexity in tannin chemistry one of the things which force winemaking or cider-making to be very much an “art”, not just a science.

oljimmy said:

Hey Brewski,

Results aren't 100% in yet, but for ordinary North American juice I just can't see how at least 1/4tsp per gallon could hurt. If you do the math, the tannic acid contributed by that is very small relative to the so-called 'ideal' levels. It just contributes to the complexity and mouthfeel. I personally will never do less than 1/2 tsp/gallon again unless I know that the apple juice comes from cider apples. I'll post more when I finish the tests up.

Click to expand...

somewhat resurrecting this thread, but how did all of these turn out with a few months on them? I have a store juice cider that i'm split fermenting with two different weizen yeasts that I plan to blend together. Total batch is 5g. Do you think that a 1/2tsp/gal ratio is still appropriate? So 2.5tsp in total?

Thanks for reminding me to chill one down and enjoy it


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Rhu said:

Anybody used black tea in their cider to get some tannin in there?

Click to expand...

i have, based on the recipe for graham's english cider, which you can find around here somewhere. i can't say that i noticed it much, but i think that's because i put too much lime juice in. it cam out ok, but next time i'll reduce the lime.

Hi all, just thought I'd chime in with my final results. The fact of the matter is that powdered or liquid tannin will add bitterness. However, it's likely to be the "hard" bitterness that is not particularly pleasant. The only difference I noticed between my batches was a basically negative difference.

If you're interested in nice, drinkable, north-american style cider made from galas/macintoshes/etc (i.e. the stuff you get at 99% of the orchards), forget you ever heard about tannins and just try to keep the acids down and the sugar up. If you want tannins, get the right juice: Kingston black, Dabinett, yarlington mill, Stoke Red, etc. I've had conversations with expert cidermakers who assure me that there is and never will be a way to properly simulate what these varieties can give you.

oljimmy said:

Just tasted the 1.5 tsp, it's probably down to 1.012 or so, and the apple sweetness plus the tannin are mixing beautifully. Not overly bitter at all.

Click to expand...

Hi oljimmy, how do you measure those 1/4, 1/2, 1, 1.5 tsp tannin that you add to your apple juice. (US/UK/EU or else). Would you be able to weigh it and update the measurements for us?
Cheers
Rosen
P.S. Just read your last post. Would you try adding tannin again or rather not?
I would suggest that the tannin you've added was too much.

Hey Rosen,

I'm using US tsp. Don't really have the time to convert to grams, sorry! That said, there was no clear "winner". It was only in the 1 and 1.5-tsp/gal batches that the tannin made any serious difference, and again, it provided a very harsh "bite", not a soft tannic mouthfeel. This is consistent with what Andrew Lea has said on the topic.

Secondly: it is entirely possible that some of my yeast didn't like the high-tannin environment. A couple of batches showed signs of being very "stressed" and produced off-flavors that were very slow to age out. Final verdict: powdered or liquid wine tannin is no substitute for apples that have naturally occurring tannins.

Hey Rosen,

I'm using US tsp. Don't really have the time to convert to grams, sorry! That said, there was no clear "winner". It was only in the 1 and 1.5-tsp/gal batches that the tannin made any serious difference, and again, it provided a very harsh "bite", not a soft tannic mouthfeel. This is consistent with what Andrew Lea has said on the topic.

Secondly: it is entirely possible that some of my yeast didn't like the high-tannin environment. A couple of batches showed signs of being very "stressed" and produced off-flavors that were very slow to age out. Final verdict: powdered or liquid wine tannin is no substitute for apples that have naturally occurring tannins. If a sub is needed, black tea or raisins are probably a much better source.

Yeast should not be adversely effected affected by tannins at the levels in cider, otherwise red winemaker would have a hell of a time! Imho wine tannins are a great way to go. Remember the addition rates in ciders are going to be MUCH LESS than those indicated for wine and the best measure is to add to taste rather than rely on a recipe. If your not having success with wine tannins it may be the quality of tannins used. The results obtained are exceptionally quality specific and unfortunately the homebrew industry has historically been an outlet for sub commercial quality product.


ThatKiwiWineBloke
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