Camco 1500 watt ULWD Elements

ChuckO · Jun 28, 2012

The zinc plating will dissolve into the wort at that pH. That might present a health risk. Once the zinc was dissolved you would be down to the copper plating layer over the base metal of the element. I'd look for an Inconel element if possible, it's very corrosion resistant.

peter78 · Jun 28, 2012

Check out www.bostonheatingsupply.com for large selection of copper and stainless steel elements. That's where I get mine.

AnOldUR · Jun 28, 2012

ChuckO said:
The zinc plating will dissolve into the wort at that pH. That might present a health risk.

It's the "might" part that I'm interested in. I've been doing some searching, but can't find anything conclusive. There are probably many, many brewers who have used the zinc plated elements. Are any of you growing a third nut? :cross:

I did find this thread.

Lilrascal · Jun 28, 2012

AnOldUR said:
My Camco 02853 came from hardwareandtools.com today. No better than Amazon. I got the same mislabled 02852 element from them too. Now I just have to hope that their return policy is as good as Amazon.

Going to give the Drill Spot element a try. :cross:

I did the same thing, and ordered the 02853 from Amazon. It arrived the stubby one too, with label of 02852. I called Camco. The lady on the phone said the 02582 is the part number of the base.

She said they changed designs, and it is now more "efficient" to have the smaller element. She assured me it was the right element, and indeed was ULWD. I am not exactly sold though.

AnOldUR · Jun 28, 2012

Lilrascal said:
She assured me it was the right element, and indeed was ULWD. I am not exactly sold though.

Since watt density is measured in watts per square inch, how can you reduce the surface area while keeping the same wattage and call it the same watt density? Sure, it still puts out the same amount of heat, but I think "more efficient" means cheaper for them to manufacture.

Lilrascal · Jun 28, 2012

AnOldUR said:
Since watt density is measured in watts per square inch, how can you reduce the surface area while keeping the same wattage and call it the same watt density? Sure, it still puts out the same amount of heat, but I think "more efficient" means cheaper for them to manufacture.

Didn't exactly make sense to me either.

tre9er · Jun 28, 2012

AnOldUR said:
It's the "might" part that I'm interested in. I've been doing some searching, but can't find anything conclusive. There are probably many, many brewers who have used the zinc plated elements. Are any of you growing a third nut? :cross:

No, but I DID grow a second.....

thargrav · Jun 29, 2012

If zinc were a problem then electric water heaters would not contain zinc plated elements. And all water heaters, gas or electric, would not contain zinc sacrificial anodes. But they do and the zinc from these parts bleeds into your hot water every day.

stlbeer · Jun 29, 2012

thargrav said:
If zinc were a problem then electric water heaters would not contain zinc plated elements. And all water heaters, gas or electric, would not contain zinc sacrificial anodes. But they do and the zinc from these parts bleeds into your hot water every day.

Electric water heaters aren't exposed to an acidic environment like our boil kettles and RIMS systems are.

I thought most sacrificial anodes were magnesium.

thargrav · Jun 29, 2012

Wurt is not that acidic which is why you can use copper and brass fittings in brewpots. Beer gets more acidic as it ferments and the acidity shows on the inside of any brass fittings, like brass faucets you may have installed in your kegerator. And BTW, modern brass is a alloy of copper and zinc. The anodes are zinc, not magnesium. Magnesium would react violently with water.

stlbeer · Jun 29, 2012

thargrav said:
Wurt is not that acidic which is why you can use copper and brass fittings in brewpots. Beer gets more acidic as it ferments and the acidity shows on the inside of any brass fittings, like brass faucets you may have installed in your kegerator. And BTW, modern brass is a alloy of copper and zinc. The anodes are zinc, not magnesium. Magnesium would react violently with water.

Interesting that in the first post of this entry https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/element-rust-no-more-235704/, the magnesium anode is not reacting violently with the water. I think you're misinformed regarding the reactivity of solid magnesium in water. http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/water/magnesium/magnesium-and-water.htm

Perhaps you are thinking about sodium or potassium?

http://www2.uni-siegen.de/~pci/versuche/pics/natrium3.jpg

thargrav · Jun 29, 2012

I probably was thinking of sodium. But I've changed enough anodes in commercial water heaters to know they are made out of zinc. So was what was left of the anode in my last water heater that died.

AnOldUR · Jun 29, 2012

The debate over the saftey of the zinc plating goes on, but I figured "better safe than sorry."

The link I posted above suggested soaking in an acid solution, so I thought I'd try Star San. I let the entire 120V/1650W Emerson element soak for a few hours in gallon bucket of some old Star San that was getting pretty cloudy. That turned it from a shiny chrome finish to a flat black. After that, all it took was some light polishing with Scotch-Brite to clean it up to bright copper.

Here are a couple of shots from before and after polishing. Might not mean anything, but it was easy and I'll feel a little safer using the element now.

tre9er · Jun 29, 2012

Nice. Mine looks like the first pic. When it came it looked like chrome. It's boiled wort twice now and prior to that water a few times. I've yet to taste either batch, but I wonder if anyone has done the math to figure out how much zinc would be in the beer and whether it constitutes dangerous? We take Zinc supplements at times, yes?

gnatp2 · Jun 29, 2012

Why have 2 smaller elements instead of one 5500W ultra low density element?

Nate

AnOldUR · Jun 29, 2012

Some people don't have access to a 240V line, but can use two different 120V circuits.

gnatp2 · Jun 29, 2012

AnOldUR said:
Some people don't have access to a 240V line, but can use two different 120V circuits.

Ah!. Makes sense. Thks

Bobby_M · Jun 29, 2012

thargrav said:
I probably was thinking of sodium. But I've changed enough anodes in commercial water heaters to know they are made out of zinc. So was what was left of the anode in my last water heater that died.

Magnesium anodes are the most popular. Aluminum, some with up to ten percent zinc content, are used in areas of hard water. No such thing as pure zinc rods.

AnOldUR · Jun 29, 2012

A note on the Camco 02853 elements that started this thread:

I did some testing on the elements that I have. The resistance of the Camco 02853 was 10.2 ohms. But according to their specs it works out that it should be 9.6 ohms. What that means is that at 120V it actually puts out just over 1400 watts (not the 1500W listed.) And as to their claim that it's low watt density. Doing the math it comes out somewhere around 125 watts/sq in. That puts it much closer to a HWD element than to a LWD, and nowhere near the ULWD they call it.

By comparison, the Emerson 1650W element that has also been discussed here works out to around 50 watts/sq in. That actually puts it in the range of an ULWD element. Also, my meter read 8.7 ohms, which is exactly where it should for the voltage and watts listed in thier specs.

The thing to take away from this is to not trust anything that Camco says or prints about their elements. Check for yourself before installing.

ChuckO · Jun 29, 2012

Here's a good reference on sacrificial annodes, Bobby_M is right, not made of zinc.

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/water-heater-anodes.html

My water is slightly acidic (6.8 pH) and will pit a zinc diecasting in a couple of weeks. Leaves a very ugly surface.

tre9er · Jun 29, 2012

AnOldUR said:
By comparison, the Emerson 1650W element that has also been discussed here works out to around 50 watts/sq in. That actually puts it in the range of an ULWD element. Also, my meter read 8.7 ohms, which is exactly where it should for the voltage and watts listed in thier specs.

I like my emerson a lot, but it's just so darn big! Not really a big deal, but it makes it harder to place two of them.

seatbelt123 · Jun 30, 2012

AnOldUR said:
A note on the Camco 02853 elements that started this thread:

I did some testing on the elements that I have. The resistance of the Camco 02853 was 10.2 ohms. But according to their specs it works out that it should be 9.6 ohms. What that means is that at 120V it actually puts out just over 1400 watts (not the 1500W listed.) And as to their claim that it's low watt density. Doing the math it comes out somewhere around 125 watts/sq in. That puts it much closer to a HWD element than to a LWD, and nowhere near the ULWD they call it.

By comparison, the Emerson 1650W element that has also been discussed here works out to around 50 watts/sq in. That actually puts it in the range of an ULWD element. Also, my meter read 8.7 ohms, which is exactly where it should for the voltage and watts listed in thier specs.

The thing to take away from this is to not trust anything that Camco says or prints about their elements. Check for yourself before installing.

Thanks for doing this, how did you measure the surface area? The element is much thicker than the HWD elements I've seen.

AnOldUR · Jun 30, 2012

I used a digital caliper to measure the diameter and a tape measure for the length. I'm not sure how close to the end that the coil actually heats and I approximated the length over the bend radius, so my total length number could be off a little, but I don't think too far.

The formula for watt density is:
Watt Density = Watts / (3.14 x Diameter x Length)

For the 1650W Emerson I used .319 diameter and 34" length and came up with 48.4 for the watt density (rounded to 50 for the earlier post.)

Got mine mounted into the pot this morning. No leaks. Testing now, but happy so far.

AnOldUR · Jul 8, 2012

WhooHooo! Direct fire EMLT with NO scorching . . .
and a grist of 50% malted wheat and 50% flaked maize.

My first fizzy yellow beer.

:cross:

thelorax121 · Jul 10, 2012

thargrav said:
Wurt is not that acidic which is why you can use copper and brass fittings in brewpots.

While it may not be THAT acidic, keep in mind that at a pH of 5, it is 20 times more acidic than water at neutral pH 7. So for materials more susceptible to acid reactions (like Zinc) this could pose a problem.

tre9er · Jul 10, 2012

AnOldUR said:
WhooHooo! Direct fire EMLT with NO scorching . . .
and a grist of 50% malted wheat and 50% flaked maize.

My first fizzy yellow beer. :cross:

Tell me more about your manifold

AnOldUR · Jul 10, 2012

tre9er said:
Tell me more about your manifold

It's Loc-Line coolant line. I use it for cooling cutting tool in my shop.

The holes in the end of the stems are about 1/8" diameter. Found them not to be enough so I drill more holes in the bottom side of the plastic. Works well now, but no better than the braid I had in there before.

Mostly just looks cool. :cross:

tre9er · Jul 10, 2012

AnOldUR said:
Works well now, but no better than the braid I had in there before.

Mostly just looks cool. :cross:

That's what I wanted to know. I like that it's customizable and bendy and what-not...but I'll stick with my braid for now I guess.

RichBenn · Sep 7, 2012

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but is the Camco -2853(err - 02852) incoloy/stainless or zinc plated?

jpoder · Sep 27, 2012

D'oh! wish I would have found this thread before purchasing a Camco 02853/02852 element off of Amazon! Now debating if I should return, or live with it. for those of you who own/live with the 02852/3 element, have you been otherwise happy with it? Did you clean the element down to the copper? not sure (like the post above mine) what the coating on it is...if I keep it should I do a starsan soak to remove?

So consensus is that there is no such thing as a 120v ULWD stainless element?

Camco 1500 watt ULWD Elements

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