Star-San and water quality?

[OpenSights]

had my club meeting tonight and it the subject came up. In my town our water might as well be crappy we’ll water. My friends is better and he’s on a softer, no filter. I have neither... even being a plumber.

I he doesn’t get water from his fridge that has a filter his sanitizer doesn’t work so well.

I know water hardness, water softening, filtration... but not in respects to brewing and sanitation.

For sanitization is hard water OK? Usually for brewing I buy bottle water. Should I switch to distilled water for sanitizing? Haven’t had much of a problem yet.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The pH needs to be 3.0 or lower for StarSan to be effective.

 

[BobBailey]

Starsan works fine with hard water. The only problem is that it wont remain effective for nearly as long as it will when mixed with distilled or RO water. I used it with my tap water for several years without a problem, but mixed fresh for every batch I brewed. If I was also bottling within a week or so I kept it longer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You can test pH to verify whether it's still effective.

 

[balrog]

While hard water will make StarSan cloudy, it does not affect its sanitizing power, just looks cloudy. Only the pH will tell you whether it's still got sanitizing power, and that's < 3.0

 

[kh54s10]

What they all said. It can be cloudy and still work fine. I have never had a problem with tap water. Where I used to live the water was very good and I just topped up in a 5 gallon water bottle when getting low. It never was completely emptied in almost 7 years. The water where I am now makes the Starsan cloudy but the pH is good.

 

[ncbrewer]

I emailed Five Star about this. I was told “The cloudiness you are experiencing is completely normal. It is just the acids in Starsan reacting to the minerals in the water. It is still going to be completely safe and fine to use.”

I'm still a little concerned about the slimy feel to equipment that I've soaked in it.

 

[ncbrewer]

For anybody interested in checking the pH of the solution, this link is for pH strips with a narrow range - should be good for checking the Star San solution: https://www.ebay.com/itm/400722763216

 

[mongoose33]

I emailed Five Star about this. I was told “The cloudiness you are experiencing is completely normal. It is just the acids in Starsan reacting to the minerals in the water. It is still going to be completely safe and fine to use.”

I'm still a little concerned about the slimy feel to equipment that I've soaked in it.

What kind of equipment? I found that if I soaked vinyl tubing (from, say, a picnic tap or a growler filler), after a while they'd slime up. I had to believe there was a reaction.

So now, I don't soak such plastic items for longer than overnight.

Are those the kinds of equipment you're referring to?

 

[ncbrewer]

What kind of equipment? I found that if I soaked vinyl tubing (from, say, a picnic tap or a growler filler), after a while they'd slime up. I had to believe there was a reaction.

So now, I don't soak such plastic items for longer than overnight.

Are those the kinds of equipment you're referring to?

I was only soaking items during brew day - even that was enough to give them a slimy feel. It's been a while since I used tap water, but it seems like everything got that way. My memory isn't as good as it used to be, so not really sure.

 

[ncbrewer]

I'm still a little concerned about the slimy feel to equipment that I've soaked in it.

I called Five Star today and asked about this slimy layer. I was told it is from the cleaning solution (OxiClean in my case). I explained that I don't get this slimy feel when using distilled water - only with tap water, and the water turning cloudy with Star San. Got the same answer. This seems to defy logic.

I was also told that Star San is a one-time use product - good for about an hour. After that it becomes less effective.

This is more conflicting information from Five Star. I have completely given up on getting valid information from them.

 

[OG-wan Kenobi]

I'm still a little concerned about the slimy feel to equipment that I've soaked in it.

I rinse that off I cant ignore it

 

[RPh_Guy]

Why are you guys soaking in star san anyway?

 

[Bostrows128]

I put some solution in a spray bottle, it goes cloudy after a while but when I go to use it I add some drops of star san into the bottle just in case.

 

[balrog]

"one time use"
"good for an hour"

WHA!?! I have never ever heard that. As an acid sanitizer/bacteriocide (not so eff as bleach and iodophor on broader spectrum mold fungus yeast), it is good as long as less than 3.0 pH.

My head, it explodes.

 

[OpenSights]

Lots of good info! Thanks!

 

[kh54s10]

I don't know about 1 time use but 1 hour seems right, when it dries there is a limited time when it is still working. After that bad microbes could multiply.

 

[ncbrewer]

Why are you guys soaking in star san anyway?

I just leave things soaking during brew day - from a few minutes to a couple hours. That's what I told Five Star, and what the answer was based on.

 

[ncbrewer]

"one time use"
"good for an hour"

WHA!?! I have never ever heard that. As an acid sanitizer/bacteriocide (not so eff as bleach and iodophor on broader spectrum mold fungus yeast), it is good as long as less than 3.0 pH.

My head, it explodes.

I've listened to several podcasts, including Charlie Talley interviews. Also some HBT posts by Five Star. The information is contradictory. I think now they are just discouraging re-use in order to sell more product. I n longer have confidence in the information from Five Star Chemicals.

 

[ncbrewer]

I don't know about 1 time use but 1 hour seems right, when it dries there is a limited time when it is still working. After that bad microbes could multiply.

I told the rep that I soak for two hours sometimes. The answer was that the Star San itself becomes less effective after an hour. If I go by this latest information, I would make up fresh Star San several times during a brew day.
??????????????????

 

[balrog]

Ah perhaps the key is the reading of "less effective".
Perhaps it means that within X time, Y% of nasties are dead. Then after X+Z time, (Y+Q)% nasties are dead. And after 1 hr, the delta % of more nasties being dead goes to zero.
Less effective at killing more, after certain time.
Perhaps.

I no longer have access to microscope so I cannot definitively say, but my spray bottle and bucket/keg of StarSan gets made maybe 3x a year and I have not, to my knowledge, gotten an infection. Well, I had an infection but it was a known vector--sludge in bottling bucket spigot that I did not know up to that point that I could disassemble. Now I disassemble and soak in the same old StarSan.

 

[RPh_Guy]

In many industries advertising claims are regulated by the government. Manufacturers can only make claims for which they have formally submitted evidence to the regulatory body for review and approval.

Five Star officially answering consumer questions must also conform to these guidelines by law.

Actual applications of a product may extend well beyond what the company is allowed to advertise, and consumers are free to use products however they see fit.
In the pharmaceutical practice for example, uses not specifically endorsed by the drug company are simply called "off-label".

It's an extremely common occurrence to use products off-label. Running studies and submitting evidence to the FDA to acquire additional/more accurate labeling is expensive and may not be cost effective for the company (e.g. will they sell more product because of new labeling?). Off-label use has the added benefit of protecting the company from legal action since it "voids the warrantee" in a manner of speaking.

It's plainly obvious to us that Star San continues to work beyond one hour after dilution since so many people use it this way and contamination rate continues to be low.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I got tired of dumping and mixing fresh star san every time so I started just saving it in the bucket with top on and reusing. I did test ph a few brews ago and it was still good. Hmm maybe should've tested it again earlier this week before I brewed. I find I'm getting more and more lax with brew things as I get more under my belt. With my 3rd kid we stopped caring about much compared to the 1st. I'm now on like my 15th brew so I really don't sweat the small stuff anymore.

 

[ncbrewer]

In many industries advertising claims are regulated by the government. Manufacturers can only make claims for which they have formally submitted evidence to the regulatory body for review and approval.

Five Star officially answering consumer questions must also conform to these guidelines by law.

Actual applications of a product may extend well beyond what the company is allowed to advertise, and consumers are free to use products however they see fit.
In the pharmaceutical practice for example, uses not specifically endorsed by the drug company are simply called "off-label".

It's an extremely common occurrence to use products off-label. Running studies and submitting evidence to the FDA to acquire additional/more accurate labeling is expensive and may not be cost effective for the company (e.g. will they sell more product because of new labeling?). Off-label use has the added benefit of protecting the company from legal action since it "voids the warrantee" in a manner of speaking.

It's plainly obvious to us that Star San continues to work beyond one hour after dilution since so many people use it this way and contamination rate continues to be low.

It's possible that the ultra conservative answers are due to regulations. Whether it is for compliance reasons or to sell more product, we're left with a lack of confidence in information from Five Star. And very likely, they just don't know the answers to all our questions about shelf life of solution, and dilution with tap water (wide variation in water chemistry).

 

[RPh_Guy]

Stick it to the Man and make a no-rinse diluted bleach/vinegar sanitizer instead of using Star San.

 

[kh54s10]

The bottle says to allow Starsan to dry. Common idea is that it is not effective when dry. Since it is also used in food prep, there are probably differing procedures. If they are talking about it getting less effective after drying for an hour, that makes sense.

I have been using it for months to years depending on how you interpret my topping up. The pH stays stable. And I also have not had an infection that I know of. 103 batches. I will continue re-using, topping up and not letting it dry.

 

[balrog]

Stick it to the Man and make a no-rinse diluted bleach/vinegar sanitizer instead of using Star San.

There's also paracetic acid, vinegar and hydrogen peroxide, but be careful. I'll stick to Starsan, just thought I'd throw that in there for good measure.

 

[Dbedard41]

I accidentally mixed 2oz of starsan to 5gal of water. Used that to rinse fermenter then transfered wort into that. Is that okay?

 

[Rish]

I doubt you'll have any problems as long as you let it drain well or wiped first. Probably won't even if you didn't.

 

[Ninoid]

I always use demineralized water in a bottle with a syringe with Starsan and it proved to be the best way to disinfect everything. Ever since I did that, I haven't had a problem with beer spoiling. For one batch I use a maximum of two decilitres of diluted Starsan and for brew, washing bottles, bottling and disinfect the fermenter twice. It is not necessary to soak the equipment but simply spray, wait a few minutes, drain and use. A few Starsans in the beer did not affect the taste of the beer or the carbonation in the bottles.

 

[ike8228]

I tend to soak my stuff regardless and plan to continue. I did not soak my last brew, first time ever, and got an infection…also a first. If you soak at least you know you are getting into all the nooks and crannies. Spraying only hits where it lands. Bottom side and inside fittings may not get hit. I fill my largest kettle up and then let gravity feed it into all my other vessels and all my spoons and chillers and everything I put into the kettles. I know the heat will sanitize stuff on the hot end, but I figured what can it hurt to ensure sanitizer goes through the valves etc, usually beer only grows through that after brew and chilled…so anything in there may not be sanitized. Sanitation is key to brewing, I don’t think there is such a thing in over doing it to make sure you don’t have issues. Star San isn’t that expensive. You may go through it faster but still, $2 worth of extra Star San is better than dumping $40-60 worth of beer.