new eBrewing setup, eBIAB or eHerms?

[marjen]

Hey all, I am starting on my electric indoor brewing room! Very excited I will have a dedicated space in stable temp conditions to make year round brewing enjoyable. I currently have been doing BIAB via propane and I am trying to decide on what system to move forward with. Some thoughts below.

Likes about BIAB

1. Fairly short, 4-5 hour brew days.
2. Lower cost for gear.
3. Less cleanup.

Dislikes about BIAB
1. Had a lot of consistency issues between batches.
2. I have a 10 gallon setup and dealing with grains is a bit of a PITA.
3. Efficiency has been all over the place. Kind of lines up with #1.

SO I am looking for feedback. I want to do this new space once. While it would be nice to save on equipment I am not opposed to spending the money on a 3 vessel system. I have a pump and a ton of hoses, clamps etc. I will be getting a new brew kettle and would need a new BIAB basket, since I currently have a bag and cant use in the electric kettle. SO not a ton of difference price wise.

So from a repeatability, efficiency point of view does it make sense to move to 3 Vessel? I could always start out with BIAB then move to 3 vessel, would be out a little money but maybe thats a first step?

 

[TexasWine]

Why not consider a no sparge two vessel/two pump set up? Unless you're doing back-to-back batches, do you really have a need for a dedicated HLT?

I use an external exchanger instead of a HERMs coil. My BK doubles as the HLT and I pump water from the BK to the water side of the external exchanger, and pump wort from the MT on the other side. Works great. And the exchanger doubles as the wort chiller at the end of the day.

 

[Sconnie12]

For the most realistic brewing experience I say HERMS. BIAB is nice and easy but doesn't emulate the pros. I like that aspect when I brew.

 

[griffi]

I use an external exchanger instead of a HERMs coil. My BK doubles as the HLT and I pump water from the BK to the water side of the external exchanger, and pump wort from the MT on the other side. Works great. And the exchanger doubles as the wort chiller

I’d like to see a pic of your setup. I’ve been doing eBIAB with great results for quite a while but I have enough gear to move to this arrangement and I think it could increase my mashing capacity

 

[TexasWine]

I’d like to see a pic of your setup. I’ve been doing eBIAB with great results for quite a while but I have enough gear to move to this arrangement and I think it could increase my mashing capacity

Don't know if you can tell what's going on in this picture, but on the right is the BK/HLT. On the left is the MT. Pump the wort on the tube side of the heat exchanger. Pump the water from the HLT on the shell side.

The only way a two vessel arrangement will increase your mashing capacity is if you either get a bigger MT or you configure it so that you can have wort in both the MT and BK, using two pumps or a single pump plus gravity to transfer the wort between the two vessels. This would be similar to the Blichmann Breweasy set up.

FWIW, I builty sysyem to function in a myriad of ways. My go to is what I describe above, using an external heat exchanger and water in the BK/HLT to control mash temps. I can also do single vessel brewing and even set it uphorizontal Breweasy style.

 

[marjen]

So is that basically a RIMS setup? I am trying to avoid RIMS, concerns with stuck pumps, burning wort, etc. I am currently leaning towards Herms.

 

[marjen]

For the most realistic brewing experience I say HERMS. BIAB is nice and easy but doesn't emulate the pros. I like that aspect when I brew.

This is part of my thinking. It seems that there must be a reason 3 V is still used often. I have read its better for repeatability of recipes and makes it easy to pinpoint temps. Not sure if this is 100% true or not.

 

[TexasWine]

So is that basically a RIMS setup? I am trying to avoid RIMS, concerns with stuck pumps, burning wort, etc. I am currently leaning towards Herms.

No, it's nothing like a RIMs. There is no direct heating of the wort during mashing. It functions exactly as a traditional HERMs, only instead of a coil in the HLT you have an external heat exchanger (plate, pipe in pipe, shell in tube). Pump water on one side, wort on the other. I call it counterflow HERMs.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

It seems that there must be a reason 3 V is still used often. I have read its better for repeatability of recipes and makes it easy to pinpoint temps. Not sure if this is 100% true or not.

Inertia? "Because that's the way it has always been done" or "that's the way the pros do it"? There's as many anecdotes about eHERMS as there are about eBIAB (and RIMS), so take it all with a grain of salt. Reading in a bit, it seems like you really want to go to a 3 vessel system, which is a good enough reason by itself. I would venture, however, that your consistency and efficiency issues are related to your process and not your brewing system. How is your grain crush?

Personally, I have been kicking around the idea of going to electric for over a year, and will be moving towards a BIAB setup once I have the electrical capacity and money for it. Ultimately, it seems simpler, the anecdotal evidence is that it makes just as good a final product (or better) than other systems, and it is less to build and store. I expect it all makes good beer, so do what makes you happy.

 

[KHungus]

TexasWine, do you have a build thread or more info about your setup anywhere? I'm planning to make the switch to electric in the next year or so and I'm interested in this design.

 

[marjen]

No, it's nothing like a RIMs. There is no direct heating of the wort during mashing. It functions exactly as a traditional HERMs, only instead of a coil in the HLT you have an external heat exchanger (plate, pipe in pipe, shell in tube). Pump water on one side, wort on the other. I call it counterflow HERMs.

Can you provide more pics and or details about the heat exchanger? Having a hard time understanding but it sounds interesting.

 

[TexasWine]

Can you provide more pics and or details about the heat exchanger? Having a hard time understanding but it sounds interesting.

Unfortunately, no good pics. Does this sketch help? Basically you just use your chiller instead of a HERMs coil to exchange heat with water.

Another advantage of this set up is that you don't have to keep a whole bunch of water in the HLT just to cover HERMs coils. You need just enough to cover the heating elements in the HLT/BK. That means your heating response time during the mash should be much improved.

Personally, I measure the wort return temp to the MT instead of the traditional way of messages the HLT in a standard HERMs design. I can do this because there is never more than a few degrees differential between the HLT and MT, and because the thermal mass in the HLT is small due to the fact that I only need enough water to cover the elements, which is about 3 gallons in my set up.

 

[TexasWine]

Here's the sketch.

 

[marjen]

So you use or are saying you could use a counterflow chiller for this application? That is an interesting approach. Heat the water in the BK. You only need enough water to cover the element and fill the counterflow chiller. Then run water from MT through the chiller/heater. When done I assume you would sparge like you would with a normal 3V. This would probably also be quicker as you would not have as much water to heat. Though I guess you would need to find sparse water?

 

[BrunDog]

2 vessel RIMS! Death to HERMs!!!

 

[TexasWine]

So you use or are saying you could use a counterflow chiller for this application? That is an interesting approach. Heat the water in the BK. You only need enough water to cover the element and fill the counterflow chiller. Then run water from MT through the chiller/heater. When done I assume you would sparge like you would with a normal 3V. This would probably also be quicker as you would not have as much water to heat. Though I guess you would need to find sparse water?

1. Yes, you can use any type of counterflow chiller. Plate works, shell-in-tube, or pipe-in-pipe (what is typically referred to as counterflow, even though all exchangers used in homebrewing are counterflow except ICs).
2. I don't sparge. That's why I recommended a two-vessel no sparge set up. Get a big enough MT and don't futz around with a sparge.
3. Yes, it's quick. And as I mentioned above I think one of the biggest benefits is being able to directly measure the wort temp as opposed to the HLT temp because of the reduced thermal mass in the HLT. When you have a bunch of water in the HLT you will inevitable overshoot if you measure the wort temp. That is unless you have some type of differential temp control that measures the difference between the HLT and MT and maintains the delta while ramping between temps.

 

[d_flyer]

1. Yes, you can use any type of counterflow chiller. Plate works, shell-in-tube, or pipe-in-pipe (what is typically referred to as counterflow, even though all exchangers used in homebrewing are counterflow except ICs).
2. I don't sparge. That's why I recommended a two-vessel no sparge set up. Get a big enough MT and don't futz around with a sparge.
3. Yes, it's quick. And as I mentioned above I think one of the biggest benefits is being able to directly measure the wort temp as opposed to the HLT temp because of the reduced thermal mass in the HLT. When you have a bunch of water in the HLT you will inevitable overshoot if you measure the wort temp. That is unless you have some type of differential temp control that measures the difference between the HLT and MT and maintains the delta while ramping between temps.

How long is your tube? I am debating between doing something like this, a kegco SS CFC or holding out for the Stout. Whatever I get I also plan to use it as a HERMs HEX.

 

[TexasWine]

How long is your tube? I am debating between doing something like this, a kegco SS CFC or holding out for the Stout. Whatever I get I also plan to use it as a HERMs HEX.

Currently I'm using two shell and tube exchangers in series. They're approximately 4' long combined, but the length of the tubes is a tad shorter.

I'm in the process of ordering stuff to make my own pipe-in-pipe exchanger because those exchangers I have are undersized for my purposes. It takes too long to chill 12 gallons of wort.

I don't want to wait in Stout. That thing has been out of stock forever. But if I were to buy one that was already made, that's the only one I would spring for. It's 31' long whereas the others are all about 12'.

The one I'm making will be based on a 50' immersion chiller. We'll see how it goes winding 50' of garden hose in a tight coil. Should be loads of fun.

 

[marjen]

@TexasWine
So how are you moving the beer from the MLT to the BK? Are you using a bag or false bottom in the MLT?

 

[TexasWine]

@TexasWine
So how are you moving the beer from the MLT to the BK? Are you using a bag or false bottom in the MLT?

Obvious first step is that I empty the water from the HLT/BK. You can just dump it or save it for cleaning later.

I'm using a traditional false bottom at the moment. In the past I have used a bag with a Brew Hardware BIAB false bottom. Either works. The bag is nice for pulling the spent grain out.

 

[marjen]

Ok I figured you dumped the water from the BK. But how is the wort sent to the BK? Pump? Any clog or stuck sparge issues? Thanks. I am going to look into this, its an interesting idea. Same basic concept as herms, minus the actual tank.

 

[ewrzesinski]

If you are interested in eBIAB, you should check out Colorado Brewing Systems. I have their 1/2 Barrel system and have been brewing on it for about a year and a half. Super easy brew day, very good efficiency, and great results.

 

[TexasWine]

Ok I figured you dumped the water from the BK. But how is the wort sent to the BK? Pump? Any clog or stuck sparge issues? Thanks. I am going to look into this, its an interesting idea. Same basic concept as herms, minus the actual tank.

Yeah, I just move the MT return hose from the MT to the lowest port on the HLT/BK and pump it over.

No clogs or stuck mash. Lautering step is identical to every other multi vessel system. Move the wort, not the grain.

 

[dunnry]

So from a repeatability, efficiency point of view does it make sense to move to 3 Vessel? I could always start out with BIAB then move to 3 vessel, would be out a little money but maybe thats a first step?

I have both a 3V Kal clone and a 15gal eBIAB setup. There is no doubt that my 3V is more efficient - for larger grain bills it's quite a bit more efficient. Dealing with larger grain bills is also a pain with my eBIAB setup. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the 3V gives me much greater control of temperatures (no overshoots, etc.). Wort is much clearer as well.

That being said, I got the eBIAB because sometimes it doesn't matter too much and the time savings is honestly a huge plus for me. I generally prefer making smaller 5 gal experimental batches on the eBIAB and then only using the full 3V for 10 gal batches. The eBIAB setup is a bit easier to clean since all the grains are in a bag as opposed to having to scoop them all out in a 3V MT. Temp ramping on a 3V takes longer than eBIAB since you are heating HLT, which eventually heats mash as opposed to heating mash directly in eBIAB.

Both have their pluses and minuses. Time and cleaning is the big plus for me on the eBIAB, otherwise 3V is slightly/arguably superior in pretty much every other aspect. You could certainly start with eBIAB by building out what would be the boil kettle in a 3V setup if you changed. Use eBIAB for awhile and then eventually decide if you want to spring for 3V. I still use both - just depends on the recipe and if I need the precision or efficiency or size of the 3V.

 

[TexasWine]

The eBIAB setup is a bit easier to clean since all the grains are in a bag as opposed to having to scoop them all out in a 3V MT. Temp ramping on a 3V takes longer than eBIAB since you are heating HLT, which eventually heats mash as opposed to heating mash directly in eBIAB.

If you made a few minor changes your three vessel set up wouldn't have these downsides.

Use a bag in combination with your false bottom. I personally know several folks that do this and love it. No more grain scooping!

For temp ramping, use your chiller (assuming you have a plate chiller or something similar) instead of the HERMs coil to heat the mash, as I describe above. This results in very responsive heating times because you only need enough water to cover the heating element in the HLT so there's low inertia to heating.

The next permutation of my brew rig will take ramp speeds to a whole new level. I plan to run two 5500 watt wavy elements in my HLT/BK along with a very long pipe-in-pipe (aka counterflow) exchanger. Since on a typical brew day I do 5 rest temps between 144F and 172F, cutting ramp times is a big time saver for me. Ramp from mash out to boiling will also be stupid fast, with an additional benefit of extremely low wattage density while boiling at around 8 watts per inch. Should be on par with the Boil Coil.

 

[marjen]

Thanks this thread has been informative. I think I will start eBiab and move to either 2 or 3 vessel based on my test results with @TexasWine's method. I do both 5 and 10 gallon so 3 V is preferable for the larger batches as hoisting the larger grain bills is a pain. I am working on a custom kettle with Spike and will make sure it can accommodate both setups. Need to get some things squared away in the room first, then also figure out control panel needs etc.

 

[mtbr_brewer]

Just thought I would add my two cents. First off, this is a perpetual debate in my mind and the minds of most electric brewers (in my opinion).

I currently brew on a 3 vessel system, but seriously considered moving to a eBIAB to save on cleaning times. However, I actually decided to just add a brewing sink in my brew room which has dramatically decreased the total brew day time. I just clean the mash tun out while the wort boils, and I stay mindful of hop additions. So by the time I get done with the boil I already have the rest of the system clean. The only additional time that 3 vessel really adds for me is fly sparging. If I did more multi-step mashes it would also add more time (ramping). However, I love how easy it is to hit my target values. I'm sure TexasWine get's similar accuracy, but I know that my friends who do eBIAB have swings in gravity by +/- .004. That may not be a huge concern for most, but I like to keep everything very consistent. I check my mill gap every brewday, I check and adjust my PH every brew, I use RO and add brewing salts every batch, I ensure I use the same processes every time and I hit my Beersmith numbers every single time. My last 6 brews have hit the target values on the nose every time, before that I might have been off by +/- .002. I love that consistency. I do believe you can get that type of consistency with most systems with the right effort (more effort for some systems).

Nonetheless, I love my 3 vessel system. It's simple and straight forward, its consistent, it looks amazing and it helps me consistently produce top quality beer. In general, I think some homebrewers spend too little time concerned with consistency. I love that we all take a different approach and produce beer we love to drink. However, my goal has always been to make incredible beers and in my eyes that takes consistency in the process so I can focus on recipes. I've brewed the same Pale Ale for 8 versions adjusting hops, water composition, yeast etc. However, each time I know that the process is exactly the same and I can attribute changes in flavor to the recipe, not a weird error I didn't catch. That's what pro brewers do, and that's why I love my system.

Here's a pic, because we all like to show off our bling!

 

[marjen]

Nonetheless, I love my 3 vessel system. It's simple and straight forward, its consistent, it looks amazing and it helps me consistently produce top quality beer. In general, I think some homebrewers spend too little time concerned with consistency. I love that we all take a different approach and produce beer we love to drink. However, my goal has always been to make incredible beers and in my eyes that takes consistency in the process so I can focus on recipes. I've brewed the same Pale Ale for 8 versions adjusting hops, water composition, yeast etc. However, each time I know that the process is exactly the same and I can attribute changes in flavor to the recipe, not a weird error I didn't catch. That's what pro brewers do, and that's why I love my system.

Consistency is one of the reasons I am thinking of moving to herms. My OG numbers are all over the place. I crush my own grains and use the squeeze the bag method but get a +- .010 sometimes. I also dont like the approximating of mash temps a tase system provides, so hoping electric helps with that. I am putting in a sink, so that will really help make cleanup a TON easier. Right now its many trips up and down stairs to the kitchen.

I agree, many ways to make good beer, just finding the right mix that works for you. And nice setup!

 

[ewrzesinski]

Great post and a very nice system, however, please do not associate eBIAB with a lack of consistency. I have been brewing on my eBIAB system for almost a year and a half after brewing with a 3 vessel propane system for years. I now have much better process control and am able to hit my Beersmith projections every time out. I can exactly replicate recipes each time I brew them. So bottom line it may be factors outside of eBIAB causing your friends issues or perhaps flaws in the design of their systems.

 

[mtbr_brewer]

Great post and a very nice system, however, please do not associate eBIAB with a lack of consistency. I have been brewing on my eBIAB system for almost a year and a half after brewing with a 3 vessel propane system for years. I now have much better process control and am able to hit my Beersmith projections every time out. I can exactly replicate recipes each time I brew them. So bottom line it may be factors outside of eBIAB causing your friends issues or perhaps flaws in the design of their systems.

I tried my hardest not to phrase that post and lead anyone to that conclusion, it seems I could have done a better job! As I mentioned, I think a high level of consistency is possible with most any system! A close friend of mine has great consistency with his eBIAB system, but I know others in my club that struggle. I would completely agree that it all comes down to how consistent the brewer is in their measurement and attention to detail.

However, I would say that there are a handful of more variables to keep consistent with eBIAB. As a user of both systems I'd be curious if you would agree. The most critical of those is ensuring that you get a similar amount of extraction from your grains with each batch. I know when I looked at eBIAB I was considering the Brew Boss system with the COFI filter since it would allow for a more consistent grain squeeze. Your Colorado Brewing System provides a similar basket design, although I don't notice an automated squeeze action (from what I see). However, I have no doubt you can replicate with ease! However, if you using a bag and squeezing sometimes but not others you're going to see changes in OG. Additionally, I would imagine there is more extraction fluctuation in a bag vs. basket. Nonetheless, consistency is most definitely possible its just a matter of how many variables need to be accounted for with each batch.

Nonetheless, I appreciate you reiterating that eBIAB can provide the consistency that we all seek! I must admit that after a long brew day I still find myself considering whether eBIAB would make things easier!

 

[ewrzesinski]

Yes - all good points indeed. The Colorado system utilizes a hard sided SS basket with a mesh bottom. My pump is recirculating constantly during the Mash. At the conclusion of the Mash (I do 75 min as a standard, you simply raise the basket via the hoist and let it drain. I will also push down on the grain to make sure all of the liquid drains out, but I do not sparge. I haven't found it necessary to sparge as I run efficiencies in the mid 70s. My brew day is now much simpler and I have less setup and cleanup than before and can sit back and relax and drink beer most of the day. The controller keeps my Mash within +/- 1° for the entire Mash and the boil is very easy to control. If I prepare ahead of time, I can be done in 4 hours too. I love my eBIAB system and wouldn't think about going back to 3 vessel. I am also brewing better, more consistent beer due to the increased temp control I have now during the Mash.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Here's the sketch.View attachment 563152

This system is really intriguing. I was trying to figure out if there was a way to do a 2 vessel system and this is the idea I couldn't quite come up with.

I'm planning to go electric sometime over the next 12 months and this will certainly be under consideration.

 

[LittleRiver]

For the most realistic brewing experience I say HERMS. BIAB is nice and easy but doesn't emulate the pros. I like that aspect when I brew.

It's cool that you enjoy that aspect of it. Nothing wrong with that. There are many ways to find enjoyment in brewing.

However, defining a "realistic brewing experience" is arbitrary and subjective. You find happiness in emulating the techniques of some modern mass producers. I say some because there are mass producers who still practice open fermentation.

Since it's a much older technique (as old as 11,000 years), would emulating the guys who still do open fermentation be an even more "realistic" brewing experience? For some it might.

I find happiness in elegance and simplicity. I don't care what kind of gear mass producers are using to make their beer. I care whether or not I can make beer that tastes better than theirs. If I can achieve that with a single vessel and a fabric bag, then am I not beating them at their own game? I have no desire to emulate them.

For me, the same logic holds true when comparing home brew systems. So it's BIAB for me.

 

[MrBaloo]

Brundog... I love the efficiency of your weight bench right next to the keezer.... !!!

 

[Sconnie12]

It's cool that you enjoy that aspect of it. Nothing wrong with that. There are many ways to find enjoyment in brewing.

However, defining a "realistic brewing experience" is arbitrary and subjective. You find happiness in emulating the techniques of some modern mass producers. I say some because there are mass producers who still practice open fermentation.

Since it's a much older technique (as old as 11,000 years), would emulating the guys who still do open fermentation be an even more "realistic" brewing experience? For some it might.

I find happiness in elegance and simplicity. I don't care what kind of gear mass producers are using to make their beer. I care whether or not I can make beer that tastes better than theirs. If I can achieve that with a single vessel and a fabric bag, then am I not beating them at their own game? I have no desire to emulate them.

For me, the same logic holds true when comparing home brew systems. So it's BIAB for me.

Like many here I would love to go pro someday. Using a three vessel system is better training than a BIAB system.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Like many here I would love to go pro someday. Using a three vessel system is better training than a BIAB system.

What if the pro system you go to is a Brewha 3 barrel rig?

 

[Exception13]

However, I actually decided to just add a brewing sink in my brew room which has dramatically decreased the total brew day time. I just clean the mash tun out while the wort boils, and I stay mindful of hop additions. So by the time I get done with the boil I already have the rest of the system clean.

Here's a pic, because we all like to show off our bling!

Heeeyyyy..... I have that same sink. ;-)

Seriously, beauty system.

Cheers!

Chris

 

[Blazinlow86]

I have a Kal clone. I love it. You won't regret it

 

[marjen]

So this is the current plan. I am going to try and put something together based on @TexasWine's idea of using 2 vessel with an Exchillerator counterflow wort chiller also being used to heat the water for the mash tun. I will only need to have a single element in the BK/HLT, will set up temp probes in each kettle, use 2 riptide pumps to move the water and wort and try and control it all with a raspberry pi based controller using CraftbeerPI. Not sure if I am going to actually build the controller or just buy a hose head.

So I have the basics for the room completed. I have a 6 ft SS table. I have a SS sink, just need to get it all plumbed and get the electric upgraded to handle the 240v outlet. These will be my first order of business. Once that is done and the room is good to go, I will order 2 custom kettles from spike. one will be the BK/HLT the other the mash tun.

In the meantime I am going to do a lot of research on the control side. It really should not be a complicated setup. Control for 2 pumps, 1 heating element and 2 thermometers. I plan to control it through my iPad. Its probably going to take the rest f the year to get the whole system together but at least I have a plan.

If for some reason the counterflow heater/chiller just doesn't work out I guess I would just add a third vessel.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

So this is the current plan. I am going to try and put something together based on @TexasWine's idea of using 2 vessel with an Exchillerator counterflow wort chiller also being used to heat the water for the mash tun. I will only need to have a single element in the BK/HLT, will set up temp probes in each kettle, use 2 riptide pumps to move the water and wort and try and control it all with a raspberry pi based controller using CraftbeerPI. Not sure if I am going to actually build the controller or just buy a hose head.

So I have the basics for the room completed. I have a 6 ft SS table. I have a SS sink, just need to get it all plumbed and get the electric upgraded to handle the 240v outlet. These will be my first order of business. Once that is done and the room is good to go, I will order 2 custom kettles from spike. one will be the BK/HLT the other the mash tun.

In the meantime I am going to do a lot of research on the control side. It really should not be a complicated setup. Control for 2 pumps, 1 heating element and 2 thermometers. I plan to control it through my iPad. Its probably going to take the rest f the year to get the whole system together but at least I have a plan.

If for some reason the counterflow heater/chiller just doesn't work out I guess I would just add a third vessel.

Please post updates. I'm really interested in this approach. I'd love to follow your build process and experiences with the rig.