IRIMS is here!

[trimixdiver1]

Inverted RIMS, all the heat, none of the scorching.

1" band heaters installed on the outside of the pipe recirculating my mash. 4500w

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1434383178.190138.jpg
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[ccfoo242]

Just googled inverted rims and can't find any info. Can you explain how this works?

 

[trimixdiver1]

Just googled inverted rims and can't find any info. Can you explain how this works?

Made the acronym up. I use 1" stainless pipe. You would too. Go to Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N41CX70/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

These are 120v 300w heaters, I have a mix of these and others. These are grouped by 2 and wired in series for 240v

Get a price of 1" stainless pipe like at Brewers Hardware. Instal. Wrap with some header insulation and there you go.

 

[marckw]

Great idea, genius even. How many are you using and (assuming they're driven by a PID/relay), at what rate can they adjust fluid temps?

 

[passedpawn]

Love it. Imma gonna do this.

 

[passedpawn]

Please get us some performance numbers when you can. I'd like to see how quickly it raises 10 galllons from 150 to 160F.

Where did you get the pipe? I think it would be cool to get it with triclovers on the end. I bet one of the online guys (brew/brewer's hardware, still dragon) will have it.

I like this because I don't have to mess with flow switches. I think I'd put a thermal switch on the pipe though, just to make sure it stays under 212.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Great idea, genius even. How many are you using and (assuming they're driven by a PID/relay), at what rate can they adjust fluid temps?

Using the ones posted, you would need 15, I have 6 of them and a bunch of others I got on eBay. So 4500 watts. You could go more or less. At 5 gpm I can do .75 to 1.0 deg per min. That's with water in the MLT. With grain it all depends on the grain bill.

I have it on a SCR driven by a PID loop on my PLC.

I split a 4" piece of PVC pipe to act as a splash guard/ burn shield. It also protects the wiring too.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Here is some more detail and links

Here is the pipe I used, they are on all four of my risers. Doesn't have to be that long, yes its 1" tri clamp.

https://www.brewershardware.com/1-Tri-Clover-Clamp-Style-Extension-Tube-36-OAL.html

The band heaters can be found on Amazon or Ebay.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=1"+band+heaters

Header wrap will help insulate the outside of the heaters to prevent a nasty burn and keep the heat that might be lost to radiation from escaping thus increasing efficiency.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002R4U7G4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I used a 4" dia 24" long piece of PVC split with a circular saw and clamped together with hose clamps to make a splash guard/ wiring protector.

Im also thinking of getting some rock wool insulation and wrapping the heaters before I put the PVC on again.

On my system I use a flowmeter to disable the PID loop if the flow goes below .5gpm to protect the wort and the heaters. You could use a flow switch too.

Whats great about this is there is a large fudge factor before you damage your wort. Also you can make it as large as you want.

As stated before: Im getting .75 to 1.0 deg per min at 4500w with 5gpm and 14 gallons in the MLT. Normal flowrates of 1gpm are more of what you will see flowing through a grain bed, so the rate of rise will be greater, I just havent measured it.

 

[BrunDog]

Fantastic design. What is also great about it is that you increase the thermal mass of the heaters. They dump a lot of heat into the pipe which will take time to heat up or cool down. This will help the PID manage with less than optimal tuning.

Besides benefits above, should also make for simpler piping, etc.

I wanted to knock this when I first saw it posted, but I am honestly smacking myself in the head, asking, "why didn't I think of that?!?"

-BD

 

[TallDan]

Really like this idea, was not aware of the band heaters before this post, which look to be pretty cool. I have a couple of questions:

What is the hottest you can heat the tube in this configuration? Is overheating a concern?

I'm wondering if something that would fit in a 2000w power budget would be effective, would you by chance be willing/able to test that by disconnecting some of the heaters?

can you post some additional pictures? I'm curious about how you closed off the ends of the PVC enclosure.

 

[Weezy]

People, including me, have used thermal wires wrapped around tubing and pipe. External RIMS. The beauty is the element never touches the wort (no scorching, less cleaning) It works pretty well but efficiency is an issue. Let us know what sort of efficiency you get. what temp increase per minute you see for a given volume of water.

 

[preinke]

Is there an issue with isolating the temperature measurement at the output of the IRIMS(TM) given that the tube would transfer heat? Do RTD probes have insulation between the probe and the mounting threads ?

I've stalled out on my electric conversion presently - too many hobbies - where do you get all of your motivation ?

I have a MTS level measurement I want to integrate to measure fluid height above grain bed. Is there a float that will the hold the "ring" ?

Thanks in advance ! you're an inspiration.

 

[TallDan]

Is there an issue with isolating the temperature measurement at the output of the IRIMS(TM) given that the tube would transfer heat? Do RTD probes have insulation between the probe and the mounting threads ?

Seems to me that it wouldn't be much different than any other RIMS assembly. The tube, heating elements, and wort will all conduct the heat and aren't going to have more than a minor temperature variation between them.

 

[kal]

External RIMS. The beauty is the element never touches the wort (no scorching, less cleaning)

Sounds like HERMS to me.

Kal

 

[Weezy]

Yes, very true. but the equipment/form factor and performance is more akin to a rims setup, especially since the herms tank is usually double duty as the HLT. I've never used HERMS but I'd guess that rims is more responsive/heats more quickly. External wire is going to perform closer to rims than herms.

 

[TallDan]

Yes, very true. but the equipment/form factor and performance is more akin to a rims setup, especially since the herms tank is usually double duty as the HLT. I've never used HERMS but I'd guess that rims is more responsive/heats more quickly. External wire is going to perform closer to rims than herms.

Remember, HERMS (Heat Exchange Recirculating Mash System) is a type of RIMS(Rercirculating Infusion Mash System).

 

[kal]

I've never used HERMS but I'd guess that rims is more responsive/heats more quickly.

Not necessarily. Depends on how both are designed. Both can be made to be responsive. There are pluses and minuses that every brewer needs to weigh themselves before deciding on one vs the other (neither is automatically "better"). I wrote an article a couple of months ago to explain why I chose HERMS for my design if you're curious. See here. Brewers shouldn't use my needs/requirements as their own however.

Kal

 

[trimixdiver1]

Remember, HERMS (Heat Exchange Recirculating Mash System) is a type of RIMS(Rercirculating Infusion Mash System).

Then everything is HERMS. These acronyms are far from what you would put on a product but give guys a way to explain it.

I call it IRIMS, so be it. Call it whatever you want, it works much faster than HERMS ( I originally had it and didn't work fast enough for me) In the spirit of homebrew acronyms it's closer to RIMS. As a vet and someone who has stayed in jobs where acronyms where what we spoke, I guess I could do better.

Mash Recirculating Line External Band Step Heater. MRLEBSH

 

[TallDan]

Then everything is HERMS. These acronyms are far from what you would put on a product but give guys a way to explain it.

I call it IRIMS, so be it. Call it whatever you want, it works much faster than HERMS ( I originally had it and didn't work fast enough for me) In the spirit of homebrew acronyms it's closer to RIMS. As a vet and someone who has stayed in jobs where acronyms where what we spoke, I guess I could do better.

Mash Recirculating Line External Band Step Heater. MRLEBSH

How about Mash Recirculation Heated by Electric Resistive Bands/Straps. MR. HERBS

 

[KartRacer54]

What are benefits of this system over a normal RIMS system. Seems as if cost are similar considering the quantity of elements needed. Very interesting design, congratulations on your genius!

 

[TallDan]

What are benefits of this system over a normal RIMS system. Seems as if cost are similar considering the quantity of elements needed. Very interesting design, congratulations on your genius!

Advantages i see:
*very low effective watt density as the heat is transferred via the pipe
*easier cleanup as wort does not touch a heating element, just the inside of the pipe

 

[Weezy]

Less chit chat and more testing to tell us what sort of *F/min you get out of this setup for a typical mash volume.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Less chit chat and more testing to tell us what sort of *F/min you get out of this setup for a typical mash volume.

I'm getting .5 to 1 deg per min with a 1.5:1 and about 20lbs of grain in a .5bbl keg. At 1gpm.

That's to the top of the bed, it takes about 5-10 min for the bed to equalize.

I have several RTD's glued to the wall of the MLT. Some times it's too much info as I never thought my mash was that unbalanced.

As a matter of fact I had to put a fine tuning slider on my HMI to prevent a huge swing( tweaks the SP). I know my loop should take care of it, but with different grain bills and such, the loop would always be unstable. Maybe I should load 20lbs at 1.5:1 and tune my loop?

 

[kal]

Sorry for derailing guys...

I'm certainly interested to hear how this works. It takes the best of both RIMS and HERMS and combines them.

Kal

 

[Weezy]

That's decent for that big of a batch! Nice!

 

[KartRacer54]

Advantages i see:
*very low effective watt density as the heat is transferred via the pipe
*easier cleanup as wort does not touch a heating element, just the inside of the pipe

Interesting TallDan
Makes sense, guess I was on the $ thought process. Sounds like good idea to not have element in the wort.
Thought of another thing, if you loose a element, no big deal but in traditional rim if you loose THE element you have a problem.
I'll have to check this out instead of rims I was planning.
Thanks for trying new ideas.
Oops, sorry trimixdiver1, gave the design thanks to the wrong poster!

 

[KartRacer54]

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Here is some more detail and links

Here is the pipe I used, they are on all four of my risers. Doesn't have to be that long, yes its 1" tri clamp.

https://www.brewershardware.com/1-Tr...be-36-OAL.html

What are you describing as "risers"?

 

[trimixdiver1]

The vertical 36" sections of pipe that go from both 3 way valves. HLT recirc, HLT to MLT sparge, MLT recirc and MLT lauter to BK.

 

[disney7]

Trimix, will those band heaters tolerate being dry fired when installed? Just wondering if the tube could be pre-heated a bit in order to keep it from cooling the mash initially.

Thanks for a pretty sweet idea.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Trimix, will those band heaters tolerate being dry fired when installed? Just wondering if the tube could be pre-heated a bit in order to keep it from cooling the mash initially.

Thanks for a pretty sweet idea.

I would make sure the pipe has liquid in it.

 

[KartRacer54]

Trimix
Any chance you could post some pictures of the setup. I am having trouble wrapping my head around the flow pattern through the IRIMS.

 

[TallDan]

I'm getting .5 to 1 deg per min with a 1.5:1 and about 20lbs of grain in a .5bbl keg. At 1gpm.

That's to the top of the bed, it takes about 5-10 min for the bed to equalize.

I have several RTD's glued to the wall of the MLT. Some times it's too much info as I never thought my mash was that unbalanced.

As a matter of fact I had to put a fine tuning slider on my HMI to prevent a huge swing( tweaks the SP). I know my loop should take care of it, but with different grain bills and such, the loop would always be unstable. Maybe I should load 20lbs at 1.5:1 and tune my loop?

Any idea how much power it was using to maintain and raise temps? With a PID in there, it's possible that you have more of the heaters than you really need, correct?

 

[nhamilto40]

A little info for those who are new to band heaters: These heater are intended to be firmly clamped around a steel barrel (typically for thermoplastic extrusion or injection molding). If they are powered without being tightened onto a barrel/pipe/etc they will overheat and burn up in seconds. Also the heater elements are mica insulated and their wires are fiberglass insulated so they will arc over and burn up if they get wet. If they are wetted for any reason they must be baked out to ~300 F before power is applied. Max element temperature is 900 F for mica heater bands.

Are these heaters a good idea? Maybe but you should understand their limitations before installing them on your system.

 

[trimixdiver1]

A little info for those who are new to band heaters: These heater are intended to be firmly clamped around a steel barrel (typically for thermoplastic extrusion or injection molding). If they are powered without being tightened onto a barrel/pipe/etc they will overheat and burn up in seconds. Also the heater elements are mica insulated and their wires are fiberglass insulated so they will arc over and burn up if they get wet. If they are wetted for any reason they must be baked out to ~300 F before power is applied. Max element temperature is 900 F for mica heater bands.

Are these heaters a good idea? Maybe but you should understand their limitations before installing them on your system.

Good info.

That's why I use a pvc pipe split in half and clamped around them. The wires are coated with liquid tape. Trust me, I made this as safe as possible.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Any idea how much power it was using to maintain and raise temps? With a PID in there, it's possible that you have more of the heaters than you really need, correct?

First: please for the love of God, quit calling a temperature controller a PID! PID is an algorithm, that's it. You don't have to use the PID function on most temperature controllers.

My PLC has the ability to do 2000 PID loops.



I tuned my closed PID loop, so it will use 0-100% power, whatever you have on the heating side will fully be utilized. So if I took heaters out, not only would it take longer to heat, the loop will be out of tune. So within reason, I could add even more, if tuned correctly I wouldn't have to worry about scorching.

 

[disney7]

Trimix, I'm going to try this out. Did you coat the flat wires between the element and the ceramic block and then slide the fiberglass insulation back on?

Any other tips/tricks you learned while assembling yours?

I'm going to build one using 120v and a 12" long tube (less metal to heat and I can't think of any reason I'd need more). I'll report back one what sort of rise rate I get.

My current HERMS setup is a 2000w 120v element in a 1 gallon cooler with as much 1/2" copper coil as can be submersed in it, and a little pump to circulate the water.

It works well with my 5 gallon batches but I'm looking to simplify it. It will be interesting to see what sort of difference there is in efficiency between heating a smaller mass (the IRIMS tube) that will probably lose more heat to the air vs heating a larger mass (8 pounds of water) that is pretty well insulated.

Thanks

 

[TallDan]

I'm going to build one using 120v and a 12" long tube (less metal to heat and I can't think of any reason I'd need more). I'll report back one what sort of rise rate I get.

Very interested to hear what kind of results you have. Please do report back here (or post a link here if you start your own thread).

 

[disney7]

I'll definitely report back. I'm going to test it with the minimal amount of parts necessary to see if the temperature rise rate is sufficient for my needs.

If I determine that it can manage it, my next step will be to add a safety, which I would like some input on.

I'm not worried about the IRIMS tube being overheated and exploding because it will have silicon hose connections at either end and one of those will fail way before the burst pressure of the pipe. Both ends would have to somehow be obstructed internally at the same time in order for a pipe explosion and I don't see that happening. It would make a mess with conductive hot wort, so I plan to make an enclosure that will protect the tube and elements from liquid.

I'm mainly worried about ruining a batch due to the solid state relay failing closed or the sparge/recirc becoming stuck. I use a temperature controller with a PID loop and the temperature sensor is at the return to the mash tun, not at the heating element. So, in either of the cases mentioned above, the wort in the IRIMS tube will be heated at 100%, potentially overcooking the wort and ruining a batch.

I thought about using a temp sensor and controller on the IRIMS pipe and interrupting the control signal to the SSR if the temp goes above a certain setpoint. The nice thing about this is it is a low current setup. The down side is that it wouldn't do any good in the event that the SSR fails closed.

So, I need something that will interrupt the power to the SSR if the temperature at the IRIMS pipe exceeds a set maximum. It would need to be able to handle 20amps. I know I could use a second temperature controller and SSR, but does anyone know of a better way?

 

[disney7]

Well, this thread has kinda died...

Anyway, I'm expecting the rest of my band heaters and the stainless pipe to be delivered today, so I should be able to experiment with it soon.

Also, it looks like an Auber temp controller in limit mode with a contactor should take care of any runaway conditions with the heater.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Well, this thread has kinda died...



Anyway, I'm expecting the rest of my band heaters and the stainless pipe to be delivered today, so I should be able to experiment with it soon.



Also, it looks like an Auber temp controller in limit mode with a contactor should take care of any runaway conditions with the heater.

I'm watching, good luck. I have some refinements to the PVC protector in the works.