Dunk Sparge & Beer Smith?

[beerisyummy]

Hive Mind,

I'm setting up an equipment profile in Beersmith so I can start utilizing the software.

I used a "dunk-sparge" on my last BIAB (I've done 5 so far) and I think I like it.

I'm not sure what numbers I would need to adjust in the equipment profile to take this into account. Thoughts?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I posted something on the BeerSmith Forum (which seems pretty dead): http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=18239.0

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I have been working to tune BeerSmith 3 to support BIAB with a sparge. I am using the Mobile version, but I think the basic features are about the same. The software seems to be lacking a feature or two to make this fairly common practice easier.

As mentioned by Oginme, I found I had to tweak my Grain Absorption default values. At least in the Mobile version, there are values "Grain Absorption" and "BIAB Grain Absorb". I changed these both to 0.4 fl oz/oz to match what I measured (which was 0.5 gal for 10 lbs of grain). Before I did this change, I had an extra 0.5 gal of water in my kettle. This likely varies based on your process and crush size.

With that change made, I then have had the best luck setting the process to look like I am doing a Fly Sparge (with BIAB unchecked and Batch Sparge unchecked). I uncheck "Use Equal Batches", but that should not matter. I have "Drain Tun Before Sparge" unchecked, but I don't know what impact that has.

I then note the total water volume (usually around 7.5 gal) and tweak the "Water/Grain Ratio" so that I have 2 to 3 gals of sparge water.

The suggestion from the Brulosophy video to uncheck "Adjust Temp for Equipment" seems like a good idea that I will play with. I have been confused by that setting, as well as "Mash Tun Weight" and "Tun Specific Heat", but it it seems that these values do not matter if the "Adjust" option is unchecked.

 

[wepeeler]

Hive Mind,

I'm setting up an equipment profile in Beersmith so I can start utilizing the software.

I used a "dunk-sparge" on my last BIAB (I've done 5 so far) and I think I like it.

I'm not sure what numbers I would need to adjust in the equipment profile to take this into account. Thoughts?

Shouldn't be too much adjustment in Beersmith. Just whatever volume of water added from the dunk sparge. I would put that in "top up water for kettle" under Mash and Lautering Adjustments in the equipment profile.

 

[doug293cz]

A dunk sparge with BIAB is functionally the same as a batch sparge when using a traditional MLT. The only difference might be the grain absorption, especially if squeezing the bag. So, I would just tell BeerSmith that you are using a batch sparge process. This will work as long as you squeeze/drain the bag the same after both mash and sparge, so that the grain absorption is the same for both steps. You will need to set the grain absorption to what you actually get, in order for your volumes to come out correctly.

Brew on

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I would put that in "top up water for kettle" under Mash and Lautering Adjustments in the equipment profile.

Seems like that would screw up all your gravity calculations.

A dunk sparge with BIAB is functionally the same as a batch sparge...

I was finding that in some cases BS was telling me to split my batch sparge into two sparge steps...but might have been due to user error (it took me a while to figure out that changing the settings on my Equipment/Mash Profile does not change the values that are associated with a Recipe without reselecting that profile). In any case, there should not be much difference between Batch Sparge or Fly Sparge calculations...but in both cases BS will use the standard Grain Absorption value and not the lower BIAB value, so you likely have to change the standard Grain Absorption value.

 

[wepeeler]

Seems like that would screw up all your gravity calculations.

It's minimal, if you know how much you're adding to the volume via the sparge. That's why I don't dunk sparge. As long as you know your starting volume, and your boil off rate, you should be able to accurately calculate grain absorption.

Instead of dunk sparging, I would suggest pouring through the bag. On a side note, I don't find sparging helps my efficiency at all. I only sparge when making a bigger beer, and I can't full volume mash. Case in point: I brewed 11 gallons of a NEIPA last night. 30 lbs of grain in a 15 gallon kettle. Mashed with 11 gallons, sparged through the bag with 3.5 gallons to get my boil volume. Gained 1 point on my estimated pre boil gravity.

 

[doug293cz]

Seems like that would screw up all your gravity calculations.



I was finding that in some cases BS was telling me to split my batch sparge into two sparge steps...but might have been due to user error (it took me a while to figure out that changing the settings on my Equipment/Mash Profile does not change the values that are associated with a Recipe without reselecting that profile). In any case, there should not be much difference between Batch Sparge or Fly Sparge calculations...but in both cases BS will use the standard Grain Absorption value and not the lower BIAB value, so you likely have to change the standard Grain Absorption value.

Not sure why BS would tell you to split your sparge water. It shouldn't do this unless it's been told to do a two step batch sparge, or you have a very large sparge volume that won't fit into your MLT along with the grain.

Batch sparge and fly sparge volume calculations are totally different. In the most common form of fly sparging, you sparge until the run-off hits a minimum SG, or your target pre-boil volume is reached. In either case, you are left with a lot of excess dilute wort in the MLT along with the grain. Thus grain absorption rate is irrelevant to volume calculations (and meaningless anyway.) If you do a modified fly sparge where the MLT is completely drained to the BK, then the volume calcs, including grain absorption, are the same as for batch sparge.

Yes, you need to set the grain absorption rate to what you have measured for your equipment, instead of using the default (I mentioned this in my previous post.) Ideally grain absorption rate would be part of the equipment profile, rather than hidden away under advanced options.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

It's minimal, if you know how much you're adding to the volume via the sparge. That's why I don't dunk sparge. As long as you know your starting volume, and your boil off rate, you should be able to accurately calculate grain absorption.

...

Grain absorption rate has nothing to do with boil-off rate. It depends only on strike volume, first runnings volume, and grain bill weight. The formula for calculating grain absorption rate is:

Grain Absorption Rate = (Strike Volume - [First Runnings Volume + MLT Undrainable Vol]) / Grain Bill Weight​

An alternate formula using pre-boil volume is:

Grain Absorption Rate = (Total Water Volume - [Pre-Boil Volume + MLT Undrainable Vol]) / Grain Bill Weight
​

As noted previously, grain absorption rate is meaningless for a traditional fly sparge.

Brew on

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Not sure why BS would tell you to split your sparge water. It shouldn't do this unless it's been told to do a two step batch sparge, or you have a very large sparge volume that won't fit into your MLT along with the grain.

It might have been that I had my mash tun size wrong, and then I kept going back and changing it on the equipment profile but that was not updating the value tied to the recipe. Unchecking the Batch Sparge option prevents this and I don't see a downside.

Batch sparge and fly sparge volume calculations are totally different.

Not with BeerSmith. It will calculate an exact amount of sparge water to hit your target pre-boil volume. Yeah, in reality when I used to fly sparge I prepped more water than I needed. In regards to this thread (sparging with BIAB) it does not seem to matter to BeerSmith if you check the Batch Sparge option. It calculates the same amount of sparge water needed.

Yes, you need to set the grain absorption rate to what you have measured for your equipment, instead of using the default

The point for this thread is that BeerSmith has two different settings, but the BIAB Grain Absorption rate is only used when you click the BIAB option for your mash (which only supports a full volume mash). You need to make sure to change the "standard" one for it to apply to a BIAB with a sparge.

Really, the BeerSmith software needs to be updated to support BIAB with a sparge.

 

[wepeeler]

Grain absorption rate has nothing to do with boil-off rate. It depends only on strike volume, first runnings volume, and grain bill weight. The formula for calculating grain absorption rate is:

Grain Absorption Rate = (Strike Volume - [First Runnings Volume + MLT Undrainable Vol]) / Grain Bill Weight​

An alternate formula using pre-boil volume is:

Grain Absorption Rate = (Total Water Volume - [Pre-Boil Volume + MLT Undrainable Vol]) / Grain Bill Weight
​

As noted previously, grain absorption rate is meaningless for a traditional fly sparge.

Brew on

My fault, I wasn't basing grain absorption on any of those variables, as it seemed I was in the post. Grain absorption on the homebrew level is pretty much static: .08-.1 gallons per pound of grain. This is BIAB, so there isn't First Runnings or an MLT involved? I would consider mash volume, kettle top up water (sparge if you add through the bag), boil volume, and boil off rate to be more important numbers to be accurate for the equipment profile, which is what the OP was asking.

 

[doug293cz]

My fault, I wasn't basing grain absorption on any of those variables, as it seemed I was in the post. Grain absorption on the homebrew level is pretty much static: .08-.1 gallons per pound of grain. This is BIAB, so there isn't First Runnings or an MLT involved? I would consider mash volume, kettle top up water (sparge if you add through the bag), boil volume, and boil off rate to be more important numbers to be accurate for the equipment profile, which is what the OP was asking.

If you do a dunk sparge with BIAB, then you do indeed have first runnings. It's what's in the kettle after you drain the bag the first time. [Edit] Even if you don't sparge, you still have first runnings, but you don't have any sparge runnings.

In BIAB, the MLT and BK are (usually) the same vessel, and because of that, there is no "undrainable MLT volume", as you are not leaving any free liquid behind in a separate vessel.

Brew on

 

[wepeeler]

If you do a dunk sparge with BIAB, then you do indeed have first runnings. It's what's in the kettle after you drain the bag the first time. [Edit] Even if you don't sparge, you still have first runnings, but you don't have any sparge runnings.

In BIAB, the MLT and BK are (usually) the same vessel, and because of that, there is no "undrainable MLT volume", as you are not leaving any free liquid behind in a separate vessel.

Brew on

For the sake of Beersmith, wouldn't that just be boil volume?

 

[doug293cz]

For the sake of Beersmith, wouldn't that just be boil volume?

In the case of no-sparge, yes. If you sparge, then first runnings volume is what you have after initial bag drain/squeeze, before any sparging is done. Remember, the only real difference between traditional mashing & lautering and BIAB is whether you remove the wort from the grain, or remove the grain from the wort.

Brew on

 

[wepeeler]

In the case of no-sparge, yes. If you sparge, then first runnings volume is what you have after initial bag drain/squeeze, before any sparging is done. Remember, the only real difference between traditional mashing & lautering and BIAB is whether you remove the wort from the grain, or remove the grain from the wort.

Brew on

I'm not looking at the software now, but that would mean top up water added to kettle wouldn't equal additional sparge water. Because you'd theoretically be pulling additional sugar from the bag vs just adding straight water to the kettle. I've done both a full volume mash + no sparge and partial volume mash + sparge and neither seem to sway my gravities or others numbers too much. That's why on a homebrew BIAB scale, personally I don't think it affects the outcome of the beer too much. It's obviously more important the larger the scale.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm not looking at the software now, but that would mean top up water added to kettle wouldn't equal additional sparge water. Because you'd theoretically be pulling additional sugar from the bag vs just adding straight water to the kettle. I've done both a full volume mash + no sparge and partial volume mash + sparge and neither seem to sway my gravities or others numbers too much. That's why on a homebrew BIAB scale, personally I don't think it affects the outcome of the beer too much. It's obviously more important the larger the scale.

The limitation when doing efficiency calcs, (or the equivalent: comparing OG's) on a homebrewing scale, is the difficulty in getting accurate data to feed the calculations. If you add up all the sources of potential error in the input data (errors in grain weight, errors in volume measurements, errors in grain potentials, errors in grain moisture content, SG measurement errors) any efficiency calc is only going to be accurate to about +/- 4 percentage points. Thus if you get 78% efficiency one time, and 82% efficiency another time, they are statistically indistinguishable (i.e. the same for all intents and purposes.)

Also, BS does not predict mash efficiency. It takes your input for brewhouse efficiency, adjusts it for post-boil volume losses (est. mash eff = input BH eff * post-boil vol / fermenter vol), and gives an estimated mash efficiency based on that adjustment. After you feed BS your actual measured weights, volumes, and SG's, it does calculate actual efficiencies.

Brew on

 

[beerisyummy]

Thanks for the discussion everyone.

How about this. Maybe BS doesn't need to know whether I dunk sparge or not. I'll just feed it the total boil volume that I have after adding the dunk-water. After all a mash is a mash and boil gravity is boil gravity.

I can't imagine things would be thrown off that much between BS "thinking" I mashed in the bag in a pot full of, say, 5 gal. vs. 7 gal. water, as such. Opinions on that?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

How about this. Maybe BS doesn't need to know whether I dunk sparge or not. I'll just feed it the total boil volume that I have after adding the dunk-water. After all a mash is a mash and boil gravity is boil gravity.

The only downside I would see is if you are using BS to calc your strike water temps. You could just pick any of a number of such calculators, and just divide up your mash and sparge water as you see fit.

 

[Oginme]

There are two ways to tackle using a BIAB with a sparge in BeerSmith. The first is to just treat the system as a standard system, which means you will need to adjust the grain absorption number in the global settings for this to be accurate. If you only do BIAB and do not use a standard mash tun arrangement, then you will be fine.

The second is to do what you mentioned above, which is to designate a kettle top off as your standard sparge volume and check for a full volume BIAB in your mash profile. BeerSmith will subtract the top off water when calculating the amount for the mash infusion. This is essentially the process I used to use when I did batches inside needing more water than my kettle could hold with the grain displacement. Since I did not want to constantly change my grain absorption back and forth for when I brewed outside, this worked well for me.

You may or may not see a change in mash efficiency depending upon whether or not you do this all the time or just with large grain bills. For me, the sparge step essentially made up the difference for the loss of efficiency in a larger grain bill and netted me out about even.

OP, you are correct in that the program does not need to know that your actual gravity reading coming from the mash is from a full volume infusion or not. It will give you an incorrect actual mash efficiency calculation, but since the program keys in on total efficiency, this is the number that you want to hit every time.

 

[beerisyummy]

There are two ways to tackle using a BIAB with a sparge in BeerSmith. The first is to just treat the system as a standard system, which means you will need to adjust the grain absorption number in the global settings for this to be accurate. If you only do BIAB and do not use a standard mash tun arrangement, then you will be fine.

The second is to do what you mentioned above, which is to designate a kettle top off as your standard sparge volume and check for a full volume BIAB in your mash profile. BeerSmith will subtract the top off water when calculating the amount for the mash infusion. This is essentially the process I used to use when I did batches inside needing more water than my kettle could hold with the grain displacement. Since I did not want to constantly change my grain absorption back and forth for when I brewed outside, this worked well for me.

You may or may not see a change in mash efficiency depending upon whether or not you do this all the time or just with large grain bills. For me, the sparge step essentially made up the difference for the loss of efficiency in a larger grain bill and netted me out about even.

OP, you are correct in that the program does not need to know that your actual gravity reading coming from the mash is from a full volume infusion or not. It will give you an incorrect actual mash efficiency calculation, but since the program keys in on total efficiency, this is the number that you want to hit every time.

COOOOOL