Chilling Conical with Aquarium Chiller - Reservoir at OR below fermentation temp?

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eric19312

eric19312

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So in my daydreaming about moving my process to a conical I keep thinking about temperature control. Initially was thinking to go with Spike or SS Brewtech's controller bundle and either a Penguin/SS glycol system or DIY glycol based on a window AC and cooler.

Here and there I've also seen option to use aquarium chiller but understood some limitations and they cost more than DIY glycol so lost interest.

But in my wandering I came across this YouTube video (and more from the same guy):





This seems so dang simple. I'd appreciate thoughts on either
  • peoples experience controlling temps with aquarium pump in general
  • OR the idea of using the temperature of the recirculating water to control the temperature of the fermentor.
Will that actually work? Seems much more efficient than keeping a very cold reservoir of water or glycol and only sending it on demand to the conical. Why not keep a reservoir at setpoint and send it to the conical continuously? I believe both the pod pumps and the aquarium chillers are designed to run non stop. What am I missing why isn't everyone doing this?

My plan is a single CF15 conical. I don't need ability to control multiple conicals at different temperatures at least for now.
 
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I initially was thinking the same thing since I stumbled upon his video last summer. The person who made the video is located south of me and we both experience very hot summers. The more I researched, I realized I wanted something more than just maintaining a cooler fermenting temperature. Since I am planning on cold crashing in the future, as far as I know, the aquarium chiller will not allow that. So, for me it does not make any sense buying something that I would outgrow even if the cost was 50-60% cheaper.



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0048IVBT...olid=17CZWZX0AL4GC&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

https://www.penguinchillers.com/product/12-hp-glycol-chiller/
 
CodeSection said:
I initially was thinking the same thing since I stumbled upon his video last summer. The person who made the video is located south of me and we both experience very hot summers. The more I researched, I realized I wanted something more than just maintaining a cooler fermenting temperature. Since I am planning on cold crashing in the future, as far as I know, the aquarium chiller will not allow that. So, for me it does not make any sense buying something that I would outgrow even if the cost was 50-60% cheaper.



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0048IVBT...olid=17CZWZX0AL4GC&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

https://www.penguinchillers.com/product/12-hp-glycol-chiller/
Click to expand...


Thanks for the response @CodeSection. I'll probably go with glycol too.
 
CodeSection said:
I initially was thinking the same thing since I stumbled upon his video last summer. The person who made the video is located south of me and we both experience very hot summers. The more I researched, I realized I wanted something more than just maintaining a cooler fermenting temperature. Since I am planning on cold crashing in the future, as far as I know, the aquarium chiller will not allow that. So, for me it does not make any sense buying something that I would outgrow even if the cost was 50-60% cheaper.



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0048IVBT...olid=17CZWZX0AL4GC&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

https://www.penguinchillers.com/product/12-hp-glycol-chiller/
Click to expand...
I run a CF 15 off an aquarium chiller. It works very well. I usually run the reservoir around 10 degrees below fermentation temperature. I'm currently fermenting a lager at 52 with no problem. I usually cold crash to 45 but I have done down to 42. My chiller only goes to 39 so if you want to crash below that it wouldn't work. I do move my reservoir temp around to fit my current chilling needs. Hope that info helps.
 
DIY ac unit chiller is really easy . However I just recently found out I need to use 2 temp controllers for it . I have 2 (inkbird, spike) but my inkbird is being used right now on a chest freezer . I have the gylcol and water in ready to go . You save so much money on this build . Good luck
 
Part of what I like about the aquarium chiller version is retaining the analog thermometer on the fermentor. In the video he is just controlling the temp in the chiller and running the coolant to the fermentor continuously. So no need to take up the thermowell with an inkbird probe, just leave the nice looking spike thermometer in there.
 
A few comments.

1. The DIY stuff works. I have a Penguin, but I also had a DIY glycol system run from the upper freezer compartment of a refrigerator. It worked. The air-conditioner approach, IMO, is better, if you're going to DIY it.

2. You asked originally about what temp w/ the aquarium chiller. I've found this, using my Spike CF10: During fermentation, it tends to work best to have the glycol solution 15-20 degrees colder than the ferm temp. When I crash I set it to 28 degrees, but that, during fermentation, tended to overshoot, and then the heating mechanism would have to correct that, and it would overshoot, and the temp would ping-pong back and forth like that. But at 15-20 degrees colder, it can overcome the natural tendency of that fermenter to absorb heat, without overchilling it.

3. I don't want lower than 28 degrees....colder that that and beersicle will form on the chilling coil.
 
The ping pong issue is what I’d like to avoid. I had this issue with my current setup which is a spiedel 60L in a fermentation fridge. Fridge worked fine when I used 6 gallon carboys with prob taped to outside and insulated over, but the 16 gal with a thermowell was much slower to respond to temperature adjustments and I’d overchill and overshoot down, then over heat and over shoot back trying to fix the overcorrection. I solved the problem with a dual probe temp controller which overrode the call for heat or cooling when temperature in the chamber went above or below limits usually 5F on either side of my set point.

Sounds like you are manually doing something similar and makes sense. But the YouTube guy is approaching temp control from different approach entirely and it’s pretty interesting. His sets temp on the aquarium chiller to beer target temp and lets it go. There is no feedback control from the fermenter to the chiller, it just maintains the temp of the reservior and keeps that circulating through the fermentor. I guess I don’t really have a question but think the approach is simultaneously surprising and obvious and worth discussing.
 
I think I read that somebody put water in their thermo well so it didnt ping pong as Eric19312 said .

Does water react pretty similar to beer in the fermenter ? I'm thinking about filling with water and running my chiller to see where the temp of glycol has to be .

For kicks let's say glycol solution kept at 50f keeps the beer at 70f. If you just plugged the pump into it's own outlet to run constantly would the beer drop below 70 or would it stay the same ? I'm just brainstorming a way to not need to use 2 temp controllers.
 
eric19312 said:
I’m thinking it would approach 50 if you continuously ran 50F water through the coil. What would be the heat source to keep it at 70?
Click to expand...

A heat wrap for the heating . Looks like 2 temp probes it is the ticket. I was just thinking of different ways .
 
You will need some amount of temperature differential to actually achieve heat transfer from the beer to the cooling fluid. If you were to run the pump continuously in order to achieve the desired target temperature you would need to precisely regulate the cooling medium's temperature and this can easily prove to be a harder task than just having the temperature controller switch the pump on and off as needed. You could do it manually by trial and error but this will still leave the beer exposed to temperature fluctuations due both to ambient temperature swings and, during active fermentation, the changing heat output of the fermentation as fermentation first speeds up and then gradually tapers off.
 
eric19312 said:
The ping pong issue is what I’d like to avoid. I had this issue with my current setup which is a spiedel 60L in a fermentation fridge. Fridge worked fine when I used 6 gallon carboys with prob taped to outside and insulated over, but the 16 gal with a thermowell was much slower to respond to temperature adjustments and I’d overchill and overshoot down, then over heat and over shoot back trying to fix the overcorrection. I solved the problem with a dual probe temp controller which overrode the call for heat or cooling when temperature in the chamber went above or below limits usually 5F on either side of my set point.

Sounds like you are manually doing something similar and makes sense. But the YouTube guy is approaching temp control from different approach entirely and it’s pretty interesting. His sets temp on the aquarium chiller to beer target temp and lets it go. There is no feedback control from the fermenter to the chiller, it just maintains the temp of the reservior and keeps that circulating through the fermentor. I guess I don’t really have a question but think the approach is simultaneously surprising and obvious and worth discussing.
Click to expand...

Depending on ambient temps, it might work to do that, but if you're fermenting in an environment that is warmer than your ferm temp set point, you won't be able to maintain it.

I've been trying to find a way to get my CF10 down to 32 degrees when I crash. Can't do it, even when I have the Penguin set at 28 degrees. The only exception is if the garage gets down to, say, 50 or 45 degrees, then I have a chance. But in the summer, when the garage is 80 degrees? No way.

The general rule is that I can't get the fermenter below 10 degrees above the temp of the glycol solution.

The reason is there are just so many protruberances sticking out of the fermenter, each of which acts like a heat sink, absorbing warmth from ambient and transferring it to the fermenter. If I had my ferm temp set at 64, say, and I was trying to "chill" the fermenter with 64-degree glycol, I doubt I could keep it below 70. There just isn't enough delta between the chilling coils and the beer.

I've tried a ton of things to try to get that chilling to work better, from insulating it all with a moving blanket to wrapping the fermenter with reflectix to even creating a "closet" enclosure around the fermenter into which I directed the cold air from a window air conditioner. None were effective in getting that temp down to 32.

So color me skeptical that you can maintain ferm temps using glycol (or other) solution at the ferm temp.
 
Vale71 said:
You will need some amount of temperature differential to actually achieve heat transfer from the beer to the cooling fluid. If you were to run the pump continuously in order to achieve the desired target temperature you would need to precisely regulate the cooling medium's temperature and this can easily prove to be a harder task than just having the temperature controller switch the pump on and off as needed. You could do it manually by trial and error but this will still leave the beer exposed to temperature fluctuations due both to ambient temperature swings and, during active fermentation, the changing heat output of the fermentation as fermentation first speeds up and then gradually tapers off.
Click to expand...

The Youtube video shows the cooling medium being held very steady by the aquarium chiller. How is this a hard task?

Sorry I realized the youtube I originally posted doesn't show the acquarium chiller in action. Adding that video now and also linked it in response #15 below.
 
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mongoose33 said:
Depending on ambient temps, it might work to do that, but if you're fermenting in an environment that is warmer than your ferm temp set point, you won't be able to maintain it.

I've been trying to find a way to get my CF10 down to 32 degrees when I crash. Can't do it, even when I have the Penguin set at 28 degrees. The only exception is if the garage gets down to, say, 50 or 45 degrees, then I have a chance. But in the summer, when the garage is 80 degrees? No way.

The general rule is that I can't get the fermenter below 10 degrees above the temp of the glycol solution.

The reason is there are just so many protruberances sticking out of the fermenter, each of which acts like a heat sink, absorbing warmth from ambient and transferring it to the fermenter. If I had my ferm temp set at 64, say, and I was trying to "chill" the fermenter with 64-degree glycol, I doubt I could keep it below 70. There just isn't enough delta between the chilling coils and the beer.

I've tried a ton of things to try to get that chilling to work better, from insulating it all with a moving blanket to wrapping the fermenter with reflectix to even creating a "closet" enclosure around the fermenter into which I directed the cold air from a window air conditioner. None were effective in getting that temp down to 32.

So color me skeptical that you can maintain ferm temps using glycol (or other) solution at the ferm temp.
Click to expand...

Check out this video. Two CF10s holding temp in 80F garage with single 1/10 HP aquarium chiller. No insulation at all not even the neoprene jackets.

note it does look like the tank on the left is running hotter than the tank on the right if the thermometers are calibrated. Probably running the coolant water in series so it hits the tank on the right first and then to the one on the left. Would think a T fitting so the coolant only goes to one tank and then returns to the reservoir would fix this but I'm still thinking about best way to set up and control a single CF15 fermentor.
 
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A few minutes of video will not show you the temperature swings occurring within a 24hr period or over several days as the ambient temperature oscillates and/or the heat output of fermentation changes.
 
Vale71 said:
A few minutes of video will not show you the temperature swings occurring within a 24hr period or over several days as the ambient temperature oscillates and/or the heat output of fermentation changes.
Click to expand...

Yes this is a valid point . Do you think the length of chiller lines play a part in temp?
 
I’ll get some screen caps from my chiller/cooler/pump setup later. Fluctuation is minimal. I get the chiller down to 36 to crash, I think the fermenter got all the way to 45
 
verboten said:
I’ll get some screen caps from my chiller/cooler/pump setup later. Fluctuation is minimal. I get the chiller down to 36 to crash, I think the fermenter got all the way to 45
Click to expand...
Is your setup completely unregulated apart from glycol temperature?
 
Jag75 said:
Yes this is a valid point . Do you think the length of chiller lines play a part in temp?
Click to expand...
In an unregulated system most definitely as they are also a point of ingress for heat. In a regulated system they will just reduce efficiency and actual available cooling power.
 
Vale71 said:
Is your setup completely unregulated apart from glycol temperature?
Click to expand...
No, I have an inkbird cycling pumps for each fermenter right now, eventually I will build a manifold and have only one pump and I will actuate solenoids. The eventual goal is for this to be controlled by my BCS. I have them unplugged right now, but I can get temp logs tonight when I get back to them.
Screenshot_20190614-232811.jpg
Screenshot_20190523-145647.jpg
Screenshot_20190601-002817.jpg
 
verboten said:
No, I have an inkbird cycling pumps for each fermenter right now, eventually I will build a manifold and have only one pump and I will actuate solenoids. The eventual goal is for this to be controlled by my BCS. I have them unplugged right now, but I can get temp logs tonight when I get back to them.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the clarification. I just wanted to make sure as we were currently discussing the feasibility of an unregulated system and your post could have been misunderstood in this context.
 
Also keep in mind that to get the unitank features out of the cf5-15 you need to be able to get down to 40f minimum if you want full carbonation range. My honest opinion is you will regret buying a conical/unitank if you don't have a excellent way too cool it. Sorry to be a buzzkill. Cheers
 
Blazinlow86 said:
Also keep in mind that to get the unitank features out of the cf5-15 you need to be able to get down to 40f minimum if you want full carbonation range. My honest opinion is you will regret buying a conical/unitank if you don't have a excellent way too cool it. Sorry to be a buzzkill. Cheers
Click to expand...

Do you fully carbonate with the yeast cake still in the fermenter ? I'm not sure if I want to transfer then carb or carb then transfer . It seems harder to carb then transfer.
 
Jag75 said:
Do you fully carbonate with the yeast cake still in the fermenter ? I'm not sure if I want to transfer then carb or carb then transfer . It seems harder to carb then transfer.
Click to expand...
one you can easily make do with a regular conical fermenter and free up your conical for more brewing while carbonating in kegs. (after you dump most the dead yeast) you tranfer to the keg using the ort on the side not the bottom dump port so its free of yeast by then) .. quite honestly you can easily tansfer to keg from a regular conical and just carb in the fridge under the correct temps. There is little real benefit for most setups to carbonating in a unitank at this size unless you have many unitanks or only brew one beer at a time. I use a single beerline chiller both at home as well as at my brewpub to control temps on all four of my 7-12gallon conicals at home as well as my four 110gallon conicals at the pub (little 1/3hp chiller does them all with solenoid valves and no issues) yes we transfer to a brite tank to further cold crash and carbonate at the pub but at home Its easier to just carbonate in the keg for me.

I use brucontrol to control all of this as well as see temp graphs.
 
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I've never had the ability cold crash until now because my kegerator has always had beer in it . Plus my fermenter wont fit . Now I can cold crash . I'll just have to learn my new toy . More then likely i wont dump the yeast cake before i keg . I'll just keg then dump the yeast and clean the fermenter . As long as the yeast cake and trub dont stack up to the port it's all good.
 
Jag75 said:
Do you fully carbonate with the yeast cake still in the fermenter ? I'm not sure if I want to transfer then carb or carb then transfer . It seems harder to carb then transfer.
Click to expand...
I dump the yeast/dryhops and then add the carb stone. Imho it's easier to carb in the unitank then transfer to kegs but I have 3 kegs to deal with. It's also the most costly method though so that can be a issue for some. As Augie mentioned you don't need to do any of these things but not to be a smartass if your not cold crashing, dumping yeast/hops, carbing in the vessle why spend all that extra money for a unitank that's so expensive because of those features. Cheers
 
I want to cold crash for sure . But I'm not so sure about carbing in the fermenter. When you dump trub do you put a hose on the dump port ?

When I cleaned it I set a pot under the dump valve . That stuff shot over the top . Had a lot of force and It wasnt even 5 gallons
 
Jag75 said:
I want to cold crash for sure . But I'm not so sure about carbing in the fermenter. When you dump trub do you put a hose on the dump port ?

When I cleaned it I set a pot under the dump valve . That stuff shot over the top . Had a lot of force and It wasnt even 5 gallons
Click to expand...
You most definitely need a barbed connector with a hose. I do it under 10psi to add excitement lol. Cheers
 
Jag75 said:
Awesome thank you . You ain't serious about dumping under pressure are you lol.
Click to expand...
Serious about the pressure. Once you've cold crashed and have alot of dryhops it takes force to cleanly push out the solids. Cheers
 
FYI, MoreBeer is having a site wide 15% off sale until 6/20 midnight. So, their Icemaster 100 Glycol Chiller with Stainless Bulkheads which is regularly $799.99 is decreased to 679.99.

For those that have a Penquin 1/2 HP Glycol Chiller, why did you choose a Penquin over something else like Morebeer's unit?
 
Jag75 said:
@verboten. Is that an app on your phone to monitor your fermenters?
Click to expand...
Yes, that is the Inkbird App for the wifi temp controllers, I have 3 308s with WiFi, plus the C919 single stage. I typically use one to monitor room temp, and the others control processes.
 
verboten said:
Yes, that is the Inkbird App for the wifi temp controllers, I have 3 308s with WiFi, plus the C919 single stage. I typically use one to monitor room temp, and the others control processes.
Click to expand...


Whoa I didnt know inkbird had that . I'm gonna have to check it out !
 
I played with the controller, with 2 Anvil fermenters filled to 7 gallons, Temp held at 62°F +/- 1° F through the day, the reservoir held at 55° F within 1° F throught the day even though the room temp hit 81°F
temps.JPG
 

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