Help with Schematics for Herms electric BCS 460 2 element brewing system

Bsquared · Feb 6, 2012

In hind sight, PJ, this is the schematic I printed up and used. But I omitted switches 2,3,4,5, and 6 (no manual mode). The one I had was from and older post you sent me when I was first designing my system.

bruin_ale · Feb 6, 2012

Bsquared said:
In hind sight, PJ, this is the schematic I printed up and used. But I omitted switches 2,3,4,5, and 6 (no manual mode). The one I had was from and older post you sent me when I was first designing my system.

I know the BCS can control all those things but I love using the switches to control my pumps and stir motor. I use the BCS to control the heating elements mostly - although I have a manual mode setup for those also. It's useful for when I'm getting started, I can just turn the HLT on and then continue getting everything else setup. Everything in my system is on a 3 position switch - ON, OFF, AUTO - I'm really happy with that decision.

BrewskiBroski · Feb 6, 2012

So how frequently do you blow fuses in a setup like this?

P-J · Feb 6, 2012

BrewskiBroski said:
So how frequently do you blow fuses in a setup like this?

You should never have a fuse blow on you - unless - something has gone wrong - like a pump motor frying.

BrewskiBroski · Feb 7, 2012

P-J said:
You should never have a fuse blow on you - unless - something has gone wrong - like a pump motor frying.

What about the 5 amp fuse going to the Heating Element Switch... wouldn't each element be drawing about 23 amps... wouldn't that blow the fuse?.... or is that fuse only there to flip the coils in the contacter?

And if that fuse is only for the contactor coil, why isn't there a fuse/breaker for the hot line going to the elements?

P-J · Feb 7, 2012

BrewskiBroski said:
What about the 5 amp fuse going to the Heating Element Switch... wouldn't each element be drawing about 23 amps... wouldn't that blow the fuse?.... or is that fuse only there to flip the coils in the contacter?

And if that fuse is only for the contactor coil, why isn't there a fuse/breaker for the hot line going to the elements?

The 5A fuse you refer to is used to protect the circuit involving the switches and contactor pick coils.

Regarding the elements - Take another look at the diagram. The total input power to it is from a 30A 240V feed.

BrewskiBroski · Feb 7, 2012

P-J said:
The 5A fuse you refer to is used to protect the circuit involving the switches and contactor pick coils.

Regarding the elements - Take another look at the diagram. The total input power to it is from a 30A 240V feed.

P-J... thanks for the quick reply... so i am trying to fully understand this before I attempt the build, but I have no electrical background...

so essentially, since max power being provided is 30A/240V, we do not need to use a fuse, because the Heating elements won't draw that much and the wires can hold it?... is that what you are saying?... if not, can you explain?

P-J · Feb 7, 2012

BrewskiBroski said:
P-J... thanks for the quick reply... so i am trying to fully understand this before I attempt the build, but I have no electrical background...

so essentially, since max power being provided is 30A/240V, we do not need to use a fuse, because the Heating elements won't draw that much and the wires can hold it?... is that what you are saying?... if not, can you explain?

Exactly. The main power feed (30A 240V) is already providing the protection for the element circuits. If the main power was being provided through a 50A circuit, circuit breakers within your control panel would be required.

BrewskiBroski · Feb 7, 2012

P-J said:
Exactly. The main power feed (30A 240V) is already providing the protection for the element circuits. If the main power was being provided through a 50A circuit, circuit breakers within your control panel would be required.

Got it Thanks... what do you use to hold the fuses?... an in line fuse holder? and where to get from?

P-J · Feb 7, 2012

BrewskiBroski said:
Got it Thanks... what do you use to hold the fuses?... an in line fuse holder? and where to get from?

radioshack.com productId=12529229

BrewskiBroski · Feb 7, 2012

P-J said:
radioshack.com productId=12529229

Excellent... thank you very much... I think I got it now... might have some questions come up throughout the build

Ill try to take pictures throughout the build to show you guys what you helped me with!

BrewskiBroski · Feb 7, 2012

P-J said:
radioshack.com productId=12529229

How about the resistor... where do you find it and how do you include it in the setup?

Bsquared · Feb 7, 2012

You want to get 1K-ohm 1W resistors I got mine from a local electronics shop, but these are at radio shack. They are really inexpensive like 1.50 for a four pack. I just soldered them in line to a 14g wire then used some wire heat shrink over them.

BrewskiBroski · Feb 8, 2012

Bsquared said:
You want to get 1K-ohm 1W resistors I got mine from a local electronics shop, but these are at radio shack. They are really inexpensive like 1.50 for a four pack. I just soldered them in line to a 14g wire then used some wire heat shrink over them.

Any advice on where and what brand of wire to purchase?

bruin_ale · Feb 8, 2012

BrewskiBroski said:
Any advice on where and what brand of wire to purchase?

I found a pretty decent selection of hookup wire at Home Depot. I initially bought most of my wire at Frys and I think I paid more for that wire than the latest spools that I found at the depot.

BrewskiBroski · Feb 8, 2012

bruin_ale said:
I found a pretty decent selection of hookup wire at Home Depot. I initially bought most of my wire at Frys and I think I paid more for that wire than the latest spools that I found at the depot.

great thanks...do you know if there is a limit to how long the 30A drying cable can be... the reason i ask, my outlet is located about 15 to 20 feet from the room I will actually be brewing in.

bruin_ale · Feb 8, 2012

I found something the other day that said at 50ft, the UL guidance is that you use the next gauge higher or carry 5A less (25A). So 15-20ft should be fine. I'm currently using 30ft of 10AWG for my system with no issue.

Alylemac · Feb 9, 2012

I'm thinking of following a very similar plan, but I was wondering about the manual mode in this system.

Am I correct in thinking that if the switches are set to manual, there's no way to regulate how often the elements fire (short of constantly flipping the switch), like you would have if you were using a PWM or PID?

Perhaps that is the intent of the design, but it seems less than ideal for the days you don't want to use the BCS. Is it just a waste of money and effort to build a system with PID's and a BCS?

bruin_ale · Feb 9, 2012

Yes, that's correct - elements are either on or off in manual mode, not PWM in this setup.

why would there be days you don't want to use the BCS? Building a system with both PIDs and a BCS would be a lot of extra time/money that's not really needed.

Alylemac · Feb 9, 2012

I guess I was just trying to figure out why one would have a manual mode for the elements if you were going to use the BCS all the time. However, I suppose you could always have the elements in manual to start and then flip to auto once you get close to the right temps. Is this what you do?

BrewskiBroski · Feb 9, 2012

Alylemac said:
I guess I was just trying to figure out why one would have a manual mode for the elements if you were going to use the BCS all the time. However, I suppose you could always have the elements in manual to start and then flip to auto once you get close to the right temps. Is this what you do?

Manual mode is just to put your mind at ease. So if your computer crashes or something along those lines, you can switch to manual mode to maintain temps until you can get the BCS back up and running again. Although I haven't heard any reviews of the BCS crashing, at least you can be prepared if it does.

Alylemac · Feb 9, 2012

That makes sense. I guess I was assuming that most people who included a manual option with the BCS were doing it to allow full manual control (including element regulation) in case they felt like it.

bruin_ale · Feb 9, 2012

The BCS requires the computer to be up and running to get the brewing process going. Sometimes when I setup, I get the water in the HLT - get my control panel hooked up and the BCS hooked up to that (to provide the 5V control signal) and then just turn on the HLT element. That way, I'm heating water while I continue setting the computer up - bringing up my brewing recipe software, etc. Gets me a head start on heating the water up. To be honest, I don't use the manual on the elements much more than that. The pumps and stir motor I use the manual switch all the time as I find it easier/more satisfying to just turn my pump on with an actual switch than with a mouse click.

bruin_ale · Feb 9, 2012

with some fermcap I could brew in full manual...I'd have a really high boil off rate with the elements at 100%, but I could account for that.

BrewskiBroski · Feb 11, 2012

Hey - Any recommendations on where to get the Contactor from? Also, what is the difference between a contactor and a DPDT relay?... are they the same thing?

BrewskiBroski · Feb 13, 2012

P-J said:
The breakers are not needed as the power requirement would be much lower (30 Amps)

I'm curious - You quote an entry Originally Posted by Bsquared - however the diagram is one that is completely different than the one he posted. How did you do that??? Your quoted diagrams show the use of 240V pumps. Is that what you will be doing?

Here is another diagram that might fit your needs a little better:
Please note that I have changed the switches to illuminated units. Switch 7 is used to limit power delivery to one or the other element.

- as always - Click on the image to see a full scale diagram printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")

Follow-up on the above question in this schematic. What is the difference between a contactor and a DPDT relay? Benefits to using one vs the other?

Also, where is a good place to purchase from?

Please let me know.

bruin_ale · Feb 13, 2012

A contactor is a relay that is purpose built to handle switching a large load. The ones we're using are not typically DPDT. SPST rated for 240V 30A is what I'm using:

http://www.pioneerbreaker.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=CN-PBC302-120V

P-J · Feb 13, 2012

bruin_ale said:
A contactor is a relay that is purpose built to handle switching a large load. The ones we're using are not typically DPDT. SPST rated for 240V 30A is what I'm using:

http://www.pioneerbreaker.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=CN-PBC302-120V

Hmmmm..

That is a DPST just like the Auberins contactors. (The ones I always recommend).

Good job, you are right on the money there.

bruin_ale · Feb 13, 2012

You're right (of course, hah), I did mean double pole, single throw.

BrewskiBroski · Feb 14, 2012

P-J said:
Hmmmm..

That is a DPST just like the Auberins contactors. (The ones I always recommend).

Good job, you are right on the money there.

So i did a little searching last night and found this inexpensive contactor on amazon... any reason why i can't use this?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001KGSJ74/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Help with Schematics for Herms electric BCS 460 2 element brewing system

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