Is pilsner a ale or lager?

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Indyking

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I'm confused. Someone who understands beer a lot more than I do and have being brewing for a long time told me recently that a pilsner is a light stout and most light American beers are pilsners.

Isn't stout a type of ale beer? According to the information I found with my research in the net, a pilsner is actually a pale, light lager beer, not an ale type like a stout!

Anyone? :confused::confused::confused:
 
I would change the description of the person in your mind. He is no longer someone who "understands beer a lot more than I do". He is now that guy that doesn't know what the hell he's talking about and shouldn't be considered knowledgeable when talking about beer. :D
 
lol ............ could he be any more wrong? Not only is a pilsner not a stout but they really don't have anything in common.
 
That is the problem with many things. People do not back up their blabber with facts. They hear it somewhere and it is fact?

Provide said know-it-all with information regarding beer, lager vs ales. Break down the various types in each. Give him the facts.
 
I don't think this guy is right about anything he said, but a stout is not necessarily an ale (eg Dragon, Lion).
 
I don't think this guy is right about anything he said, but a stout is not necessarily an ale (eg Dragon, Lion).

How do you figure? I can't access beer sites (besides this one, weird huh) at work to quote any style guidelines, but how is a stout not necessarily an Ale?:confused: I've not been able to find any mention of Lion or Dragon Stout using a lager yeast.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't lager beer the yeast type and how it is fermented? Lager yeast and colder temps than ale?
 
How do you figure? I can't access beer sites (besides this one, weird huh) at work to quote any style guidelines, but how is a stout not necessarily an Ale?:confused: I've not been able to find any mention of Lion or Dragon Stout using a lager yeast.

How is something brewed with lager yeast and lager temperatures an ale?

Define ale.
 
I agree that a lot of mainstream amercan beers are pilsners but they are definetly not just a "lighter" stout.
 
How do you figure? I can't access beer sites (besides this one, weird huh) at work to quote any style guidelines, but how is a stout not necessarily an Ale?:confused: I've not been able to find any mention of Lion or Dragon Stout using a lager yeast.

How is something brewed with lager yeast and lager temperatures an ale?

Define ale.

A stout with lager yeast at lager temps is not a "stout", specifically - maybe a bock?

edit - LGI beat me to it...
 
A stout with lager yeast at lager temps is not a "stout", specifically - maybe a bock?

edit - LGI beat me to it...

But a porter made with lager yeasts at lager temperatures is a porter? lolwut?

Or do you call baltic porters bocks, cuz yeah, they are just like bocks.
 
most american lagers aren't anything like pilsners, either, at least not according to the BJCP guidelines.
 
How do you figure? I can't access beer sites (besides this one, weird huh) at work to quote any style guidelines, but how is a stout not necessarily an Ale?:confused: I've not been able to find any mention of Lion or Dragon Stout using a lager yeast.

Maybe thinking of a Baltic Porter? That's traditionally brewed with a lager yeast. Never heard of a stout that's not brewed with ale yeast.
 
He probably had a dark bock beer one time, asked about the yeast, heard it was lager, and assumed that anything dark is a stout.

Eitherway hes wrongggggggggggg, Im just proposing a senario ;)
 
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1639

its gotta be true, it says so on this page somewheres

Interesting. The post by SavagePenguin on March 1st, 2007 in the link you provided also says pilsner is a light stout, i.e. an ale beer. That's exactly what my friend believes. I mentioned he knows more about beer than I do because he is in the brewing hobby for ages unlike me. I’m just starting to understand it. But I agree with most folks here, he's wrong about the pilsner…:eek:
 
Maybe thinking of a Baltic Porter? That's traditionally brewed with a lager yeast. Never heard of a stout that's not brewed with ale yeast.

Historically there have definitely been stouts brewed with lager yeast. I've been through that here, done and done. Remember that in England, Stout and Ale were considered mutually exclusive.

As for Lion and Dragon. They, to my palate, have no ale charactaristics (they are fruity, but it's from the sugar additions, a lot like a baltic porter).

Furthermore Kris England (mashweasel) says they both use lager yeast. If you know Kris, you know he knows his stuff. I'll generally believe he is correct about research he has done into a brewery unless I have reason to believe otherwise.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=1673.msg20219#msg20219

So at the end of the day if it is made with lager yeast in what is otherwise a lager brewery and it tastes like a lager and there is really no historical basis in England for calling a Stout an ale anyway....

What do you call it?
 
I betcha savagepenguin simply mistyped the word stout instead of lager. Since the paragraphs above was about stouts, it is perfectly conceivable that his fingers were ahead of his brain when he got to that next paragraph on his post. And since it is a forum post more thank likely, like most of us, he didn't correct his typos and just flew by onto the next paragraph. There is NOTHING anywhere else on the web or anywhere (except this thread actually) that corroborates this assertion anywhere else when you google it. He was still thinking stouts and typed it instead of lager, nothing more.

He doesn't elaborate further on how such an incongruous statement he is making occurs. He doesn't go further to cite some really obscure bit of brewing lore or anything else. He doesn't state that the original beers brewed in Pilsen were made with ale yeasts or were heavily dependent on crystal or anything remotely like that.

More than likely 'penguin didn't mean anything like that at all, just mistyped it, your friend came across it some point, didn't bother to do any further research into it, and you're all making a big hullabaloo about jack.

It is answerbag afterall which is even lower down the rung than yahoo answers, NOT EVEN really a brewing cite. Just a section on an open forum where any idiot can post and respond. Have you ever read some of the answers people give on those sites about anything? At least 'penguin used complete sentences. Have you looked at some of the other questions and answers in the beer wine category???? Sheesh.

Here's some good info on the history of pilsners....

Origin

Until the mid-1840s, most Bohemian beers were top-fermented, dark and cloudy. The taste and standards of quality often varied widely, and in 1838, consumers dumped whole barrels to show their dissatisfaction. The officials of Pilsen founded a city owned brewery in 1839, called Bürger Brauerei (Citizens' Brewery - now Plzeňský Prazdroj), brewing beer according to the Bavarian style of brewing.[1] Bavarian brewers had begun experiments with the storage (German: 'Lager') of beer in cool caves using bottom-fermenting yeasts, which improved the beer's clarity, flavour, and shelf-life. Most of this research benefited from the knowledge already expounded on in a book (printed in German since 1794, in Czech since 1801), written by František Ondřej Poupě (1753–1805) from Brno.[2]

The Bürger Brauerei recruited the Bavarian brewer Josef Groll (1813 – 1887) who, using new techniques and the newly available paler malts, presented his first batch of modern pilsener on 5 October 1842. The combination of pale colour from the new malts, Pilsen's remarkably soft water, Saaz noble hops from nearby Žatec (Saaz in German) and Bavarian-style lagering produced a clear, golden beer which was regarded as a sensation.

Improving transport and communications also meant that this new beer was soon available throughout Central Europe, and the Pilsner Brauart style of brewing was soon widely imitated. In 1859, “Pilsner Bier” was registered as a brand name at the Chamber of Commerce and Trade in Pilsen. In 1898, the Pilsner Urquell trade mark was created to put emphasis on being the original brewery.
[edit] Modern pilseners
A glass of Veltins pilsener.
A glass of Krombacher pilsener.

The introduction to Germany of modern refrigeration by Carl von Linde in the late 19th century removed the need for caves in which to store the beer and thus allowed the brewing of bottom-fermenting beer in many places which had been unable to do so before.[3] However, even until recently the Pilsner Urquell brewery still fermented its beer using open barrels in the cellars underneath their brewery. This technology was changed in 1993 with the use of large cylindrical tanks; however, small samples are still brewed in a traditional way for taste comparisons. Pilsner also has the unique claim to being "the world's first golden beer".

A modern pilsener has a very light, clear colour from pale to golden yellow, and a distinct hop aroma and flavour. Czech pilseners tend toward a lighter flavour (good examples being Pilsner Urquell and Staropramen), while those in a German style can be more bitter (particularly in the north, e.g. Jever) or even "earthy" in flavour. The Paddock Wood Brewery in Saskatoon produces a Czech style Pilsener which uses water treated to mimic the water in Pilsen and a 300 year old Czech yeast culture. Distinctive examples of German pilseners are Aktienbrauerei Kaufbeuren Jubiläums Pils, Augustiner Pils, Beck's, Bitburger, Flensburger Pilsener Fürstenberg, Henninger's Kaiser Pilsner, Holsten, König Pilsner, Königsbacher Pilsener, Krombacher, Külmbacher, Radeberger, Schwelm's Schwelmer Pils, Veltins, Warsteiner, Würzburger Hofbrau, and Wernesgrüner. On the other hand, Dutch (Amstel, Grolsch, Heineken) and Belgian pilseners (Jupiler, Stella Artois) have a slight sweet taste.
[edit] Pilseners as a marketing category

A pilsener is generally regarded as different from other pale lagers by a more prominent hop character, particularly from the use of Saaz noble hops and spring (soft) water. While pilsener is best defined in terms of its characteristics and heritage, the term is also used by some brewers (particularly in North America) to indicate their "premium" beer, whether or not it has a particular hop character.

Any mention of stouts there?
 
And yes "Tropical Stouts" of which I believe Lion is considered one is often brewed with lager yeast.

Tropical Stout

Tropical stout is the term usually applied to the sweet, high-gravity stouts often brewed in the Carribbean and elsewhere. These stouts were often brewed as domestic versions of the Foreign Extra Stouts that were available for import in those countries, but modified to fit in with existing Carribbean brewing traditions. Unlike any other style of stout, Tropical Stouts are often brewed with bottom-fermenting (lager) yeast.

And Lion is pretty damn good. Very, very clean. You still get chocolate and roasty notes, but it is very crisp and almost refreshing.
 
Hahaha. Maybe the guy drank some beer at moonlight brewing and had a black pilsner or some other beer that doesn't fall into easy categorization.

The porter/stout debate has been done to death.
That's like the debates on black ipa or 'cascadian dark ale' (which is cornball) when you could probably make the same damn beer and call it hoppy azz porter or stout. Use a lager yeast while you're at it too.

There is no way you can have hard and fast rules about styles of beer. They are good for rough categorization and that is it. There will always be exceptions that are tough to classify.
 
More than likely 'penguin didn't mean anything like that at all, just mistyped it, your friend came across it some point, didn't bother to do any further research into it, and you're all making a big hullabaloo about jack.

I tend to agree with you about the post by penguin in the other site, but the reason for my "big hullabaloo about jack", in your own words, is that even people here seem to be confused about the classification of stouts. Talked to my friend just a few minutes ago. He's what he thinks (his opinion is in bold italic): stouts are not always ales, unlike BJCP styles claim. Stouts are often lager beers because they are brewed with lager yeasts in lager fermenting times. Other people here in this discussion seemed to have confirmed that. Also, according to him, he claims that pilsners he is talking about are truly light lager yeast-fermented stouts. He never said pilsners are ales. I think I understood his reasons. I’m just not sure how much pilsners out there fits in his definition. But, in the end of the day, I think it's quite simple to figure this out. The yeast nature is always the factor that classifies the beer, if in doubt about the classification of any beer; just try to figure out if ale or lager yeast was used. That's a simplified but correct way to never go wrong, I reckon.
 
I tend to agree with you about the post by penguin in the other site, but the reason for my "big hullabaloo about jack", in your own words, is that even people here seem to be confused about the classification of stouts. Talked to my friend just a few minutes ago. He's what he thinks (his opinion is in bold italic): stouts are not always ales, unlike BJCP styles claim. Stouts are often lager beers because they are brewed with lager yeasts in lager fermenting times. Other people here in this discussion seemed to have confirmed that. Also, according to him, he claims that pilsners he is talking about are truly light lager yeast-fermented stouts. He never said pilsners are ales. I think I understood his reasons. I’m just not sure how much pilsners out there fits in his definition. But, in the end of the day, I think it's quite simple to figure this out. The yeast nature is always the factor that classifies the beer, if in doubt about the classification of any beer; just try to figure out if ale or lager yeast was used. That's a simplified but correct way to never go wrong, I reckon.


But that really has nothing to do with the fact that your friend, despite you thinking he knows more about you, has hung his hat on an erroneous and more than likely mis-written statement on a website that isn't even a true brewing site...He's wrong, pure and simple....

Like someone else said the Stout/porter debate has been done to death. But there are some great threads on here about them.

But I'm not going to say there's confusion about stouts as ales or lagers at all. Since probably less than 5% of the stouts brewed in the world are probably "tropical" stouts and brewed with lager yeasts, heck it could even be less. I've only had lion, and haven't heard of the other ones mentioned in Remmy's posts. For all we know it might be less than one percent. So I don't think it's too far off the mark to say "Stouts are Ales, with a few exceptions brewed in tropical parts of the world using lager yeast." Kinda like our wiki states.

Stouts originally were brewed with ale yeast, you can't really dispute that, then someone decided to brew it with lager yeast in a climate where folks were more apt to lager their beers, or strive of a lighter more refreshing beer.

Hell, I've taken many of my recipes and played with them with lager yeast, including ipa's....But I wouldn't expect some footnote or anything in some style guide because I decided to do it. I'm sure in this huge planet of beer nirvana we live on, there are commercial breweries who do the same thing, brew trad ale recipes with lager yeast and vice versa, but I don;t think they'd expect a footnote in the bjcp style guide.

It's not like something big that has emerged like the Dark Ipa/cascadia or whatever the hell anyone wants to call it these days. Where it's reached some "tipping point" or something. I don't thnk there's ever going to be a huge rush for lagerstouts in the marketplace that would call for a major re-shaping of the beer terminology for it.

Heck some of us still consider Pluto a planet, despite what astronomy has said in the last few years. :D
 
I don't think the BJCP says that all stouts are ales. By its nature, the BJCP guidelines group things. They do point out that many baltic porters and tropical stouts may be made with lager yeasts, so clearly someone thinks that is a notable distinction.

Seriously, got get a Lion (preferably in the can, hardy har). It's got the characteristics both of a tropical stout grain bill and of a lager. If you fermented it with ale yeast it would be a different beer. Notable distinction.
 
I think what your friend was probably trying to say was something like this... "Mrhm hrmm, mrhm mmrhhm mhrum mrhm mmrhm mrrrhm". Which roughly translates to: "Trust me, I know what I am talking about" in the ancient language known as CranialRectumish.
 
But that really has nothing to do with the fact that your friend, despite you thinking he knows more about you, has hung his hat on an erroneous and more than likely mis-written statement on a website that isn't even a true brewing site...He's wrong, pure and simple....

You are right, I agree with you regarding the issue of classification of beers. But that was not the point. My friend never really looks at internet forums... he claims forums have just too much speculation and little facts, which I disagree. I love the forums because they are very informative.

My friend's opinion is based on the fact that he brews a lot of lagers that use stout-based ingredients but with a lighter malts and lager yeast. He calls it pilsner because he uses a combination of pilsner and roasted malts. I supposed he has his own classification (and his beer do taste great!), but he claims many American pilsners out there use a similar recipe. Whatever!
 
.... He calls it pilsner because he uses a combination of pilsner and roasted malts. I supposed he has his own classification (and his beer do taste great!), but he claims many American pilsners out there use a similar recipe. Whatever!


Pilsners are a specific style of beer, from a specific region of the world, actually a specific style of Lagers.

That's different from Pilsner malt (though they usually contain the malt.) The malt name comes from the fact that it was grown in pilsen or nearby for and used originally for that beer.

Just because he uses a specific ingredient in it, doesn't change the style or the name. Pilsner malt is a type of base malt, just like marris otter or standard 2-row. Or vienna even. I use a lot of pilsner malts in my brewing as well, Belgians, my Cream Ale, blonds, I've even done some ipa-like smashes with them, but that doesn't make them pilsners.....Or anything even remotely like that.

If I make a stout and decide to use vienna, or marris otter or pilnser in it, it doesn't mean my stout is a "vienna stout" or an "otter stout" or a "pilsner" stout.
 
There are many different aspects of what makes a pilsner a pilsner, depending on what you classify as pilsner, some would only call it a pilsner if the water profile matched that of Pilsen (Czech Republic now I think). etc., so this thread is going to come down to . . . .potayto, potaato, tomayto, toemaatoe. etc. Like I said before, I like beer, all beer probably . . . That being said, I doubt some people would classify any commercial american beer as a pilsner.
 
And because so many of us harbor so many opinions, we need to find a way to reach agreement (although this thread may never achieve that lofty goal!). Thus, the BJCP has become our main source when looking at styles. If there is another, please submit it! We may choose to produce variations of a style, or create recipes without regard to a style, but if we're talking Stouts and Pilsners - then anything else is just toying around. There is no basis in fact that pilsners are light stouts. Just sayin...
 
There is no basis in fact that pilsners are light stouts. Just sayin...

or, we could go with the fact that they basis is all malted barley, water, and yeast and say that all beers that aren't as dark as a stout are just lighter versions of stouts, regardless of any of the other differences :drunk:
 
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