Overcarbed/Twang Taste

I don't understand it. I've brewed 17 batches thusfar, and have had success on the majority (have only really drank about 10 of the 17), but some I'm still having the same problem as I had from batch #1. The problem is as follows...

On almost every beer I've tasted, I get a weird aftertaste when I burp. It tastes, clean, and sort of metallic and twangy. It's not all that bothersome, because the actual beer itself is tasty, but in some instances (just like tonight), the beer is overcarbed.

My very first brew was a Brooklyn Brew Shop AG Brown Ale. I carbed it and waited the 3 weeks. When I popped the first one, it filled with foam incredibly fast, and when I poured it, it was bubbling from the bottom of the glass like champange. The beer tasted very sharp and carbonated, and there wasn't much more flavor other than that.

A few batches afterwards, that flavor has disappeared, but it always has that weird aftertaste when I burp.

Fast forward to tonight...I just tried my Red Rye Ale, which I brewed on 3/31/12, bottled on 4/24/12 (after reaching FG), and then opened tonight after 48 hours in the fridge. It immediately foamed up, but I was able to pour it into the glass without a massive head. There was hardly any aroma, the appearance was that of bubbly champange, and the taste was sharp, clean, carbonated, and a little twangy/metallic/sour aftertaste. Again, when I burped, I tasted that odd aftertaste.

I've got my brew day down pat. I do 1-gallon batches, all grain, BIAB. My water is bottled Poland spring water from the store. I wash all of my equipment as soon as I'm done using it (usually with dish soap and hot water) and then soak it in StarSan come brew day/bottle day/etc. I boil in a 3 gallon stainless steel stock pot.

I ferment in a temperature controlled mini fridge, and have never had a blow off.

I really have no idea why this weird aftertaste when I burp keeps coming up. I mean, I can kinda live with that, as it's not the end of the world when the beer tastes good, but there are also instances like tonight, that my beer is simply overcarbed and tastes funny. I need help!

How are you calculating your priming sugar amount? Sounds like you may be adding too much. CO2 can give an astrigent taste that you describe.

D_Nyholm said:

How are you calculating your priming sugar amount? Sounds like you may be adding too much. CO2 can give an astrigent taste that you describe.

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I use the tastybrew online calculator. I adjust my final amount based on how much beer I rack to my bottling jug (off the trub and yeast) and then input the temperature as the highest temp my beer achieved during fermentation. I then boil some water, add the priming sugar, and allow to boil for about 3 minutes before I turn it off and let it sit before adding it to my bottling jug. Then I rack on top of it. I do not stir it, I simply rack on top of it.

Don't know what could be the problem then, unless they weren't done fermenting when you bottled. I usually use about 1 oz of corn sugar when I bottle 1 gallon batches.

Bump. Please help. I really need someone to guide me here. I'm frustrated. Thanks...

I don't know about the over carving, but I had a similar metallic chemical aftertaste when I burped. I have since switched to bottled water, found out I had a bunch of chloramines in my tap water. The taste could be from the excess of co2 in the beer also, it forms carbonic acid which has a bite to it.

Slainte-brew said:

I don't know about the over carving, but I had a similar metallic chemical aftertaste when I burped. I have since switched to bottled water, found out I had a bunch of chloramines in my tap water. The taste could be from the excess of co2 in the beer also, it forms carbonic acid which has a bite to it.

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I use bottled water, not tap water. I carb to style using tastybrew, making sure to adjust for the amount of trub/yeast cake left in the fermenter (usually .85 gallons when doing 1 gallon batches).

http://kotmf.com/articles/flavor.pdf
http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html
http://mattmegbrew.blogspot.com/2010/02/metallic-taste-in-your-beer.html

Here are a few links you can look at to see if anything is related to a change in your process or something you are doing that you are not aware of. Everything you describe appears to point to an astringency issue and there are, unfortunately several reasons this can occur, most directed at sanitation or yeast or excessive dry hopping. Hope this helps!

duboman said:

http://kotmf.com/articles/flavor.pdf
http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html
http://mattmegbrew.blogspot.com/2010/02/metallic-taste-in-your-beer.html

Here are a few links you can look at to see if anything is related to a change in your process or something you are doing that you are not aware of. Everything you describe appears to point to an astringency issue and there are, unfortunately several reasons this can occur, most directed at sanitation or yeast or excessive dry hopping. Hope this helps!

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Thanks. I just read through these and I guess it sounds like astringency. However, I'm very confident in my sanitizing techniques. The one thing I read is that astringency can be caused by sitting on the trub too long? I do a primary for 3 weeks for all of my beers. Remember, these are 1 gallon batches. Could it be that because my batches are so small, I'm hitting FG way before 3 weeks, and the added time I have it sitting there could lend to the astringency I'm getting?

JeffoC6 said:

Thanks. I just read through these and I guess it sounds like astringency. However, I'm very confident in my sanitizing techniques. The one thing I read is that astringency can be caused by sitting on the trub too long? I do a primary for 3 weeks for all of my beers. Remember, these are 1 gallon batches. Could it be that because my batches are so small, I'm hitting FG way before 3 weeks, and the added time I have it sitting there could lend to the astringency I'm getting?

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Once I hit my fg in 3 days in a 5 gal batch.

JeffoC6 said:

Thanks. I just read through these and I guess it sounds like astringency. However, I'm very confident in my sanitizing techniques. The one thing I read is that astringency can be caused by sitting on the trub too long? I do a primary for 3 weeks for all of my beers. Remember, these are 1 gallon batches. Could it be that because my batches are so small, I'm hitting FG way before 3 weeks, and the added time I have it sitting there could lend to the astringency I'm getting?

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I highly doubt that. How much yeast are you pitching?

pabloj13 said:

I highly doubt that. How much yeast are you pitching?

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I use MrMalty to determine that. Because I do 1 gallon batches, it usually says something to the effect of (pitch 0.2 packets of US-05). To make sure I'm not under pitching, I usually round up to half a packet.

Or, if I'm using Wyeast smack packs, it'll say (use 0.4 packets)- so I'll add a little more.

I've read on here countless times that it's virtually impossible to overpitch yeast on the batches that we make. So I figure, if I round up just a bit, I'm not really hurting anything.

Now that I'm going back and reviewing, it deifnitely sounds like this:

CARBONATION
CHARACTERISTICS: The presence of carbonic acid in
beer gives the head and bubbles when the bottle is
opened and pressure released. Gives head
characteristic. Taste is tart and acidic, increasing with the
carbonation. This is especially noticeable on
overcarbonated brews. An overall prickly or stimulating
mouth feel. Small bubbles are desired, as these will
retain both the head and the carbonation for a longer
period.
CAUSES: CO2 is dissolved in beer during the
fermentation process.
TOO MUCH: Excessive priming sugars, bacterial
contamination, presence of amylase enzymes in bottled
beer, iron or calcium oxalate in the water, isomerized hop
extract, autolyzed yeast sediment, unconverted starch,
not boiling extract worts, fusarium mold on barley or in
extract, precipitation of excess salts in the bottle.
TOO LITTLE: Poor bottle cap seal, not enough priming
sugar, weak or dead yeast culture when bottling (as with
long lagering periods or high alcohol beers).

I did notice last night when I poured that the bubbles were shooting up from the bottom of the glass, almost like champagne. I also noticed that the bubbles that formed the head of the beer were more "clear/light" than being fluffy and billowy. I even noticed some "flakes" in the bottom of the glass...They appeared hard? But they were most likely yeasties?

Either way, if I'm using tastybrew and carbing to style, and I'm OCD with my sanitizing/bottle washing, how and why is this happening?

That's odd. How much sugar are you actually using for a 1 gallon batch? How are you measuring it? What kind?

pabloj13 said:

That's odd. How much sugar are you actually using for a 1 gallon batch? How are you measuring it? What kind?

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Well, we'll use the example of the Red Rye Ale that I tried last night, and was wayyyy overcarbed.

I use the tastybrew calculator, enter in the style (in this case, I used an American Pale Ale), then adjust my beer volume to .85 gallons (as I usually get 9 beers), and input the beer temperature, using the warmest temperature that the beer achieved during the 3 weeks that it was in the primary.

I use a digital scale, so my measurements are accurate.

I will say that I do NOT stir my beer after I rack it on top of the priming sugar. I also don't really get a good "whirlpool" going when I do the siphon. Maybe I'm not getting good distribution?

JeffoC6 said:

Well, we'll use the example of the Red Rye Ale that I tried last night, and was wayyyy overcarbed.

I use the tastybrew calculator, enter in the style (in this case, I used an American Pale Ale), then adjust my beer volume to .85 gallons (as I usually get 9 beers), and input the beer temperature, using the warmest temperature that the beer achieved during the 3 weeks that it was in the primary.

I use a digital scale, so my measurements are accurate.

I will say that I do NOT stir my beer after I rack it on top of the priming sugar. I also don't really get a good "whirlpool" going when I do the siphon. Maybe I'm not getting good distribution?

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So how much is it? An ounce or so? Corn sugar? That's possible, except then some of your beers would be much flatter.

pabloj13 said:

So how much is it? An ounce or so? Corn sugar? That's possible, except then some of your beers would be much flatter.

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For this example, I used 0.8 oz of corn sugar per the calculator.

at what temperature are you bottle conditioning?

progmac said:

at what temperature are you bottle conditioning?

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70 degrees 75% of the time and about 78/80 25% of the time (on the warm days).

JeffoC6 said:

For this example, I used 0.8 oz of corn sugar per the calculator.

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That's odd, man. It sounds like you are doing everything right. I mean it wouldn't hurt to give it a little stir to disperse the sugar, but I doubt that's it. You shouldn't be overcarbed with the numbers you are giving. But foaming bottles almost have to be contaminated if everything else is right. How are you bottling? Could your wand or bottling spigot be contaminated?

pabloj13 said:

That's odd, man. It sounds like you are doing everything right. I mean it wouldn't hurt to give it a little stir to disperse the sugar, but I doubt that's it. You shouldn't be overcarbed with the numbers you are giving. But foaming bottles almost have to be contaminated if everything else is right. How are you bottling? Could your wand or bottling spigot be contaminated?

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Since I do such small scale, here is my bottling process:

The night before, I fill up the sink with 3 gallons of hot water and stir in 3 tablespoons of B-Brite cleanser. I then add my bottles, which I always rinse out immediately after I pour beer from them. I let them soak overnight.

The next morning, I wake up and rinse them thoroughly with cold water, turn them upside down on paper towels and let them hang out for a few hours.

When it comes time to bottle, I take out all of my previously cleaned equipment (that I wash with regular dish detergent after using) and put it all in a large glass casserole dish that I fill up with StarSan. I left everything soak and then funnel some StarSan into my previously cleaned bottles and allign them on the rack of my dishwasher. I boil my sugar water for about 3 minutes, let it sit for about 5 minutes, and then pour it (through a sanitized funnel) into my bottling jug (that has also been sanitized). I swirl it around in the jug, then rack from my primary into it. I swirl it a little, but not much. Then I rack from the primary into the awaiting bottles. Right before I fill each bottle, I dump the little bit of StarSan solution out.

I then cap them with sanitized caps/etc., put them in my 70 degree room and don't touch them for 3 weeks minimum. After 3 weeks, I put one in the fridge and try it.

Last night was 3 weeks and 3 days...I opened it up and it was like champange.

weird. the only thing i can possibly think of is that your scale isn't working right. but that seems pretty far fetched. 0.8 ounces of sugar should be just less than two tablespoons. does that sound about right?

After everything that has been discussed it appears that this issue may not have a definitive answer. I would suggest that you start by cutting in half your amount of priming sugar on the next batch to begin experimenting for a solution since this appears to be an over carbonation problem. It is quite possible that because you are dealing with such small batches the on line calculators may not be completely accurate.

I know that when I have done calculations I get some variations depending on the calculator being used and I do 6.25 batches.

Good luck

progmac said:

weird. the only thing i can possibly think of is that your scale isn't working right. but that seems pretty far fetched. 0.8 ounces of sugar should be just less than two tablespoons. does that sound about right?

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Yea man, my scale is working too, because the vessel that I use to put the priming sugar in always weighs exactly 1.0 oz. So then I simply add my priming sugar until I get to 1.8 oz...or what-have-you.

I'm really at a loss as well. Is it something I could be doing on the front end? I taste my wort after the boil, and it's delcious. I taste my hydrometer samples, and they're delicious. I even taste the leftovers that don't make it into the bottles, and it's delicious.

duboman said:

After everything that has been discussed it appears that this issue may not have a definitive answer. I would suggest that you start by cutting in half your amount of priming sugar on the next batch to begin experimenting for a solution since this appears to be an over carbonation problem. It is quite possible that because you are dealing with such small batches the on line calculators may not be completely accurate.

I know that when I have done calculations I get some variations depending on the calculator being used and I do 6.25 batches.

Good luck

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Thing is, out of the 11 beers that I've tried, 2-3 have had this overcarbonated problem. 6-7 have been perfect (but still had that weird aftertaste when I burp), and 1-2 have been completely flat in some instances, and carbonated in others (my Irish Red had a few that were perfect, a few that were flat, and a few that gushed).

With all due respect and since you are so insistent that everything in your process is perfect and accurate with no room for error I cannot suggest anything further than what I have already chimed in about.

There is obviously something wrong with what you are doing because the beer essentially makes itself and the beer carbonates itself with the food you provide it

Like I said before, you are either overlooking something minute or you will need to do some experimenting to figure it out.

Good luck!

I would say rack your wort over the priming sugar and get a whirlpool going to blend the sugar. If you are saying that some are flat, some are fine and some are overcarbed, you're probably not getting equal amounts of priming sugar in your bottle. Also, You say that you use dish detergent to wash your equipment. dish detergent has fats in it which can cause problems in your beer. Maybe try a different cleanser. I use oxiclean to clean with and star-san to sanitize.

JeffoC6 said:

(my Irish Red had a few that were perfect, a few that were flat, and a few that gushed).

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That right there would make me think the carbing sugar isn't mixed well.

I do a similar process of putting my carb sugar/water mixture in my bottling bucket first and then transfer in on top of it. But, I also use a sanitized spoon make sure it is mixed well. I have consistency across all of my bottles with carbonation.

TheKeg81 said:

That right there would make me think the carbing sugar isn't mixed well.

I do a similar process of putting my carb sugar/water mixture in my bottling bucket first and then transfer in on top of it. But, I also use a sanitized spoon make sure it is mixed well. I have consistency across all of my bottles with carbonation.

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I think this may ultimately be the problem, and I will certainly "stir" it next time.

However, how come, with ALL batches I've had thusfar, I get that weird aftertaste when I burp? That's really not a huge problem, but I just don't get where it could be coming from.

JeffoC6 said:

I think this may ultimately be the problem, and I will certainly "stir" it next time.

However, how come, with ALL batches I've had thusfar, I get that weird aftertaste when I burp? That's really not a huge problem, but I just don't get where it could be coming from.

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Are you using LME? I know some people report a twang with that.

Not saying this is related to your issue but I am wondering from if you add something to harden the water? It sounds like you use spring water for everything. As far as I know (from reading), brown ale and rye ale wants hard water. By the way you can break down chloramine from boiling water in 20 minutes. I know there are additives to harden water but I plan on using filtered city water for my beer (if filtered water is good enough for my cooking, etc, why shouldn't it be good enough for my drink?

I'm interested in this problem though. And I find your 1 gallon batches interesting. It allows you to try various recipes very quickly doesn't it?

iambeer said:

Not saying this is related to your issue but I am wondering from if you add something to harden the water? It sounds like you use spring water for everything. As far as I know (from reading), brown ale and rye ale wants hard water. By the way you can break down chloramine from boiling water in 20 minutes. I know there are additives to harden water but I plan on using filtered city water for my beer (if filtered water is good enough for my cooking, etc, why shouldn't it be good enough for my drink?

I'm interested in this problem though. And I find your 1 gallon batches interesting. It allows you to try various recipes very quickly doesn't it?

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Chlorine can be removed by boiling. Not chloramine.

pabloj13 said:

Chlorine can be removed by boiling. Not chloramine.

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Are you 100% about your source? I know chlorine is a lot less stable than chloramine but my sources say that chloramine (and ammonia) breaks down in 20 minutes of boiling water. My water has chloramine so I have pondered this for a while.

OP if you want to diagnose excess co2 as the reason for your off flavor, simply do a side by side comparison of a degassed sample and a fully carbonated sample.

Pour 3 oz into two separate glasses. Free one sample of co2. Taste.

Try to keep controls consistent, like temperature, suspended yeast, etc.

i know the exact taste you are talking about...and it comes from excess carbonation.

when i first began kegging, my first 2 or 3 batches had that metallic/twangy/cardboard-esque taste. with the help of Topher (shout out!) i was able to credit this taste to pro-longed force carbing times which essentially gave rise to over carbonation.

i remember being extremely frustrated with this taste...especially since it would only arise in the beer after it was carbonated and not during fermentation.

although i have not tried your beers, i am very, very confident that this taste you are describing is due to over carbonating your beers causing carbonic acid to form.

you need to re-evaluate your priming process. are you sure your scale is calibrated? are you using the correct type of priming sugar? are you mixing your priming solution well enough? are you using a reliable priming calculator?

look into all these questions. if you're confident in all of your responses and your priming process as a whole, maybe it's time to look into kegging.

iambeer said:

Are you 100% about your source? I know chlorine is a lot less stable than chloramine but my sources say that chloramine (and ammonia) breaks down in 20 minutes of boiling water. My water has chloramine so I have pondered this for a while.

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Here is a source:

http://hbd.org/ajdelange/Brewing_articles/BT_Chlorine.pdf

It lists a half life of 26 minutes. It's typical to think of the removal of something taking 5 half-lives or 130 minutes. It is not considered an adequate way to remove chloramine. Campden tablets, on the other hand, are extremely cheap and take less than 5 minutes to remove chloramines.

Figure 5.4 is interesting in other ways. First, we see that just bringing the water to a boil (which took a little
over an hour with the Superb (TM) burner we used) reduced the chloramine concentration by almost exactly half. The
actual concentration numbers were 2.82 mg/L at the start of heating and 1.42 at the commencement of the boil (note
that a reduction to a half is represented by a log scale change of 0.301). Thus the half life for the treatment “heat to a
boil” is about 65 minutes for this sample from the FCWA. Compare with the155 minute half life for standing at 60°F.
This lends support to the idea that temperature has a profound effect on half life. Second, we see that while the overall
process sucessfully dechloraminated (and removed the very small 0.08 mg/L free chlorine as well) the water, it took
nearly two hours to do this. A more potent burner would have gotten the water to boiling faster but it would still take
about 50 minutes of boiling to reduce the chloramine to the terminal 0.01 mg/L of this experiment. During an hour’s
boil one can expect 10 - 20% of the original water volume to be lost. Comparing the Case 12 results with Case 4 we
conclude that boiling will remove chlorine and chloramine completely but that it may no be a practical approach
unless
• The water is to be boiled anyway for decarbonation
• The brewer does not wish to use a chemical method

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brewski08 said:

i know the exact taste you are talking about...and it comes from excess carbonation.

when i first began kegging, my first 2 or 3 batches had that metallic/twangy/cardboard-esque taste. with the help of Topher (shout out!) i was able to credit this taste to pro-longed force carbing times which essentially gave rise to over carbonation.

i remember being extremely frustrated with this taste...especially since it would only arise in the beer after it was carbonated and not during fermentation.

although i have not tried your beers, i am very, very confident that this taste you are describing is due to over carbonating your beers causing carbonic acid to form.

you need to re-evaluate your priming process. are you sure your scale is calibrated? are you using the correct type of priming sugar? are you mixing your priming solution well enough? are you using a reliable priming calculator?

look into all these questions. if you're confident in all of your responses and your priming process as a whole, maybe it's time to look into kegging.

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Since you know exactly what I'm dealing with, I'd like to pick your brain...

I don't really ever taste cardboard. Most of the beers I drink taste fine on the front, and after swallowing, and the normal burping afterward, I get a sharp/off/metally taste in my burp gas (haha).

I really truly am confident in my priming process, except for the following:
-I don't let the priming sugar cool long enough after boiling
-I don't achieve a good whirpool when I'm racking into the priming sugar
-I don't stir at all

I'm confident in my scale as well.

JeffoC6 said:

Since you know exactly what I'm dealing with, I'd like to pick your brain...

I don't really ever taste cardboard. Most of the beers I drink taste fine on the front, and after swallowing, and the normal burping afterward, I get a sharp/off/metally taste in my burp gas (haha).

I really truly am confident in my priming process, except for the following:
-I don't let the priming sugar cool long enough after boiling
-I don't achieve a good whirpool when I'm racking into the priming sugar
-I don't stir at all

I'm confident in my scale as well.

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there's actually another post in the beginners forum discussing the issue of over carbonating and another member suggested a great experiment to test for over carbonation.

-pour a beer and take a sip to see if you're getting that metallic/twangy taste.
-if so, let it sit for a period of time.
-during this period of time, take a sip of your beer every 5 minutes or so.

if this taste is decreasing over this period of time, it is most likely do to carbonic acid leaving your beer.

brewski08 said:

there's actually another post in the beginners forum discussing the issue of over carbonating and another member suggested a great experiment to test for over carbonation.

-pour a beer and take a sip to see if you're getting that metallic/twangy taste.
-if so, let it sit for a period of time.
-during this period of time, take a sip of your beer every 5 minutes or so.

if this taste is decreasing over this period of time, it is most likely do to carbonic acid leaving your beer.

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Interestingly enough, last night, as I was drinking my overcarbonated Red Rye Ale, I nursed it, since I wasn't enjoying it due to the overcarbonation. When I took the last few sips, it was pretty warm, and I noticed that it was actually more manageable to drink at that point.

Sounds like I've got a case of overcarbonation. Now I have to figure out how to solve it. I'm betting that it's due to my lack of dispersing the priming sugar througout the wort, causing uneven carbing. I'm going to have to start stirring methinks.

JeffoC6 said:

When I took the last few sips, it was pretty warm, and I noticed that it was actually more manageable to drink at that point.

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JeffoC6 said:

However, how come, with ALL batches I've had thusfar, I get that weird aftertaste when I burp? That's really not a huge problem, but I just don't get where it could be coming from.

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It appears in the taste AND in the burp, but it's more noticeable in the taste on the higher carbonated beers?

I know you said you trust the scale, but have you tested your scale to see if it's calibrated? It could be precise, just not accurate.

I've lingering issues with my beer, I've been trying to sort out as well. It doesn't appear every beer, but it does reappear. So, I feel you and know it's a pain to try to figure some of these things out. Best of luck.