Fermentation

Hi,

I'm currently making only my third batch of beer from an extract kit. This time I chose Munton's IPA and decided to go for the "Upper Rank's Reserve". It's been in the primary fermenter now for two days but I'm worried that fermentation isn't taking place at all. At least from previous experience from the last two batches os ale I expected it to be bubbling merrily away by now, but there's nothing going on. Is something wrong and should I be worried? If there is something wrong is there anything I can do about it?

Thanks.

Airlocks bubble or they don't it doesn't mean anything is wrong.

Half my beers NEVER have a bubbling airlock, but I've never had a fermentation not happen before. Like I was quoted above.

Airlock bubbling and fermentation are not the same thing. You have to separate that from your mindset. Airlock bubbling can be a sign of fermentation, but not a good one, because the airlock will often blip or not blip for various other reasons...so it is a tenuous connection at best.

If your airlock was bubbling and stopped---It doesn't mean fermentation has stopped.

If you airlock isn't bubbling, it doesn't mean your fermentation hasn't started....

If your airlock starts bubbling, it really doesn't matter.

If your airlock NEVER bubbles, it doesn't mean anything is wrong or right.

Your airlock is not a fermentation gauge, it is a VALVE to release excess co2. If it bubbles it is because it needs to, if it doesn't, it just means it doesn't need too...

Often an airlock will bubble if the fermenter has been disturbed in some way, like a change in temperature, change in atmospheric pressure, the cat brushing against it, opening it up to take a hydro reading, any number of things. The co2 has sat in stasis for a period of time, then it was disturbed so it is not longer at equilibrium with everything else now. And therefore it is blipping in your airlock...

Or you could indeed have fermentation happening, since maybe your fermentation was laggy and a change in temp restarted fermentation.

Airlock bubbling only tells you that co2 is coming out of the airlock, it is not telling you why. And there's various reasons. That's why it's not a good idea to equate airlock bubbling with fermentation...It could be because it is fermenting, or it could not be because of fermentation...so it's not a trustworthy tool.

And airlocks sometimes bubble or they don't. And airlock is a valve, a vent to release excess co2...NOT a fermentation gauge. It's important to make that distinction, or you'll be panicking everytime a an airlock doesn't bubble, or stops bubbling.

Fermentation is not always "dynamic," just because you don't SEE anything happening, doesn't mean that any-thing's wrong,, and also doesn't mean that the yeast are still not working diligently away, doing what they've been doing for over 4,000 years.

That's why you need to take a gravity reading to know how your fermentation is going, NOT go by airlocks, or size of krausen, or a calendar, the horoscope or the phases of the moon (those things in my mind are equally accurate).

The most important tool you can use is a hydrometer. It's the only way you will truly know when your beer is ready...airlock bubbles and other things are faulty.

The only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometer. Like I said here in my blog, which I encourage you to read, Think evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....

Thinking about "doing anything" like repitching, or bottling, or racking, without first taking a hydrometer reading is tantamount to the doctor deciding to cut you open without running any diagnostic tests....Taking one look at you and saying, "Yeah I'm going in." You would really want the doctor to use all means to properly diagnose what's going on?

And don't forget https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/fermentation-can-take-24-72-hrs-show-visible-signs-43635/, and by visible signs we don't necessarily mean a bubbling airlock.
It IS a sticky at the top of the beginners forum for a reason, afterall.

Okay. Thanks for that, Revvy. I shall take a look at your blog too.

Cheers.

I am amazed that half of Revvy's beers don't bubble the airlock. All of mine do. Not that it means anything.

I have been where you are a few months ago at the same batch number. I followed Revvy's advice and I was bubbling by the fourth day. I used a liquid yeast without a starter and it just took off slow but had a lot of airlock activity for several days once it took off. The beer is great now.
I now use starters evry time.

Revvy said:

Airlocks bubble or they don't it doesn't mean anything is wrong.

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+1... I like to think of airlocks as serving the same purpose as the weights on a high pressure cooker... it just releases pressure from your fermentor without allowing any air back in...

Watch this video that explains airlock activity (or lack thereof)...

Once again, thanks guys. I'm beginning to see activity now. At least I've learned something from this.

If fermenting beer creates co2 and your bucket is sealed tight the airlock will bubble every time. I have never had a batch NOT bubble. I also know many others who brew and theirs always bubbles as well. It MAY be possible for it to ferment without the airlock bubbling but it certaintly is not the norm and I would use it as a sign to take a hydrometer reading.

In all the batches I have done, I have only ever had one that didnt bubble. I made a batch of hard cider and it didnt even make a peep. After 10 days, I took a hydrometer reading and it was still not done. Two weeks later it fermented nicely and still never even blipped. Man, its tasty too!

WrongCoastBrewery said:

In all the batches I have done, I have only ever had one that didnt bubble. I made a batch of hard cider and it didnt even make a peep. After 10 days, I took a hydrometer reading and it was still not done. Two weeks later it fermented nicely and still never even blipped. Man, its tasty too!

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And as I have said repeatedly for the last 25,000 posts. If only ONE brewer has that experience then that alone proves that it is NOT a reliable method of knowing what's going on with your beer, despite what earwig says......

Revvy said:

And as I have said repeatedly for the last 25,000 posts. If only ONE brewer has that experience then that alone proves that it is NOT a reliable method of knowing what's going on with your beer, despite what earwig says......

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I don't care how many posts you have. I am speaking from my experience, as well as the experience of many people that I personally know. In 99 out of 100 batches of beer the airlock will bubble during fermentation. If yours isn't, I would check your equipment.

I also said, it can be used as a sign to take a hydrometer reading (if not bubbling); but I guess you ignored that part.

earwig said:

I don't care how many posts you have. I am speaking from my experience, as well as the experience of many people that I personally know. In 99 out of 100 batches of beer the airlock will bubble during fermentation. If yours isn't, I would check your equipment.

I also said, it can be used as a sign to take a hydrometer reading (if not bubbling); but I guess you ignored that part.

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I wont pretend to explain every little meaning in anyone's post, but his thoughts are that all too often novice brewers see the airlock as a tool to gauge fermentation. Hell, we all did it at some point. Weather it was just to look at it daily or to think fermentation was stuck, we all did it. I dont think it is wise for anyone to be messing around with the fermenter when the airlock is or isnt bubbling. The biggest problem would be inadvertant contamination from opening and shutting the fermenter too much. Even if the airlock isnt bubbling that doesnt mean anything is wrong. Just because yours has 100% of the time, doesnt mean someones whose doesnt is or has bad equipment. In the end it comes down to this. RDWHAHB. Let the fermenter runs its course and after two weeks, take your reading. Dont judge anything off of a valve.

Also, not that I am the post police, but I wouldnt be so fast to make snide comments or smartass posts about someone's post numbers. That in itself is like judging fermentation off of the airlock. Just because someone has less or more posts than you doesnt mean they are an expert. But then again, maybe they are.

earwig said:

I don't care how many posts you have. I am speaking from my experience, as well as the experience of many people that I personally know. In 99 out of 100 batches of beer the airlock will bubble during fermentation. If yours isn't, I would check your equipment.

I also said, it can be used as a sign to take a hydrometer reading (if not bubbling); but I guess you ignored that part.

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This is what you said, that I was referring to, not your experience, or what you mentioned about a hydrometer, but your OPINION...

If fermenting beer creates co2 and your bucket is sealed tight the airlock will bubble every time.

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And that is simply NOT the case....even in a tighly sealed fermenter if there is not enough EXCESS co2 being produced during fermentation, then the airlock is NOT going to bubble. Since it doesn't need to vent it out......there are lots of examples on here of perfectly sealed fermenters not bubbling to the brewer's expectations, if at all, where their beers fermented fine...including many of mine.....

For example you can be primarying a 2.5 gallon batch in a bucket or even a 6.5 gallon carboy, and there be plenty of headspace to contain the co2 and not NEED to void it out.....

I was just saying that if you are going to use an absolutist term like EVERY I've seen enough examples to prove you wrong......

If someone sees the word EVERY and yet their having a different experience, then they are going to assume something is wrong...when often it isn't.

You don't KNOW how many folks have DUMPED batches of beer just because their stupid airlock didn't bubble...and it never occured to them to take a hydromter reading...that's what spurned me to write the blog to begin with...several folks posting have dumped beer based on whether or not it bubbled....

I only referred to my postcount because I subscribe to all the threads I answer, so I SEE the results of this everyday. I get the feedback, whether it's in the threads them selves OR in pms, the results are the same, taking airlock bubbling off the table get's responses like THIS;

Chaostar said:

Brewed up a batch of wit and pitched some Danstar.

24 hours later and nothing. No krausen, no airlock activity. Read a bunch of bad reviews about Munich and thought mine was bad. Waited a few days and still nothing. Thought about pitching some more, possibly something else and then remembered what experienced brewers always say....

"USE EVIDENCE BEFORE ACTION!"

took a gravity reading after 4 days and i had gone from 1.050 to 1.012. Damn, that's pretty much my target. There was never any krausen nor activity in the airlock. Checked my hydrometer in water and it's good.

So, happy brewing and I can join the club of always trusting objective findings over subjective. Thank's to all of you and your info on here.

Cheers and happy brewing!

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Or this one....I could post hundreds of these to illustrate it...just from this week alone.

Chaostar said:

This happened to me on Friday with the same yeast on a wit. I had no krausen or airlock activity all weekend. OG was 1.050. Took a hydrometer reading on Monday because I was about to re-pitch and it was at 1.012. First time I have ever seen fermentation without ANY visible signs.

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On here, on a daily basis we have PROOF that airlocks are not a RELIABLE indicator of anything else other than whether or not co2 is coming out of an airlock...And even less of an indicator of why it isn't. In every situation conceivable.......

And I STILL get a 50% airlock bubbling on my OWN fermentations.....But I have a 100% success rate on my fermentations. I've NEVER had to pitch new yeast in a batch of beer I brewed, regardless of what the airlock was doing.

Revvy, maybe I was assuming too much but most new brewers are doing 5 gallon batches in a 6-6.5 gallon fermenter. If there is no bubbling in this example, most of the time it will mean something is wrong. With such a small amount of head space, if fermentation is happening the way it should be, the co2 will need to escape. Since I am going by my personal experience and that of others who have been brewing for years that is all the proof I need to make certain assumptions.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say take a hydrometer reading in a few days. I've had fermentations like Revvy's example with the Wit and I've had airlocks bubble during it's crash cooling. So I never go by the airlock but only by what the hydrometer says.

I have read the newer print version of this book... below are snippets from From John Palmer's How to Brew book. Reading every chapter/paragraph where the word "airlock" is found leads me to respectfully disagree with Revvy. And, if you have better information perhaps you should write a book. This is the 2nd book I've read on brewing.

Again, I'll say... I believe the airlock will bubble when there is fermentation ALMOST every time (in a traditional "new brewer" setup or a setup where there is a typical amount of head space. If there is no bubbling CHANCES ARE something is wrong.

6.1 Lag Time

Lag Time This term refers to the amount of time that passes from when the yeast is pitched to when the airlock really starts bubbling on the fermenter. A long lagtime (more than 24 hours) indicates that the wort was poorly aerated, not enough yeast was pitched and/or that the yeast was initially in poor shape.

21.1 Common Problems

Cause 1: Leaky Bucket Lack of fermentation can be due to several things. If the airlock is not bubbling, it may be due to a poor seal between the lid and the bucket. Fermentation may be taking place but the CO2 is not coming out through the airlock.
Cure: This is not a real problem; it won't affect the batch. Fix the seal or get a new lid next time.

9.3 Conducting the Fermentation

Active fermentation should start within 12 hours. It may be longer for liquid yeasts because of lower cell counts, about 24 hours. (Although if you made an adequate starter, it should start every bit as fast as dry.) The airlock will bubble regularly. The fermentation activity can be vigorous or slow; either is fine. The three important factors for a successful fermentation are pitching enough yeast, good wort nutrients, and maintaining a consistent temperature in the correct range. If you do these right, it is common for an ale's primary fermentation to be done in 48 hours. Three days at 65-70¡F for primary fermentation is typical for the simple pale ale being described here. Once the bubbling slows down however, do not open the lid to peek. The beer is still susceptible to bacterial infections, particularly anaerobic ones like pediococcus, and lactobacillus, which is found in your mouth. If you really want to look, peek in through the airlock hole, but keep the lid on.

Appendix A

Beginning brewers often make the mistake of checking the gravity too frequently. Every time you open the fermenter, you are risking infection from airborne microbes. Check the gravity when you are ready to pitch the yeast, then leave it alone until the bubbling in the airlock stops.

10.5 When to Lager

It takes experience for a brewer to know when primary fermentation is winding down and the beer is ready to be transferred. If you insist on brewing a lager for your very first beer, you are going to be flying blind. You can play it safe by waiting several weeks for the primary phase to completely finish (no more bubbling) and rack then, but you will have missed your opportunity for a diacetyl rest. As discussed in the previous chapter, you should rack to a secondary when the krausen has started to fall back in. The bubbling in the airlock will have slowed dramatically to 1 or 4 bubbles per minute, and a hydrometer reading should indicate that the beer is 3/4 of the way to the terminal gravity. Knowing when to rack takes experience, it's as simple as that.

1.4. Leave it alone!

After about 24 hours, the airlock will be bubbling steadily, the exciting evidence of fermentation. The fermentation will proceed like this for two to four days, depending on the conditions of your fermentation. The activity will decrease as most of the malt sugars are consumed by the yeast, though the yeast will continue to ferment the beer long after the bubbling diminishes. Leave the beer in the fermentor for a total of two weeks.

11.1 When to Bottle

Ales are usually ready to bottle in 2-3 weeks when fermentation has completely finished. There should be few, if any, bubbles coming through the airlock. Although 2-3 weeks may seem like a long time to wait, the flavor won't improve by bottling any earlier. Some books recommend bottling after the bubbling stops or in about 1 week; this is usually bad advice. It is not uncommon for fermentation to stop after 3-4 days and begin again a few days later due to a temperature change. If the beer is bottled before fermentation is complete, the beer will become over-carbonated and the pressure may exceed the bottle strength. Exploding bottles are a disaster (and messy to boot).

WrongCoastBrewery said:

Also, not that I am the post police, but I wouldnt be so fast to make snide comments or smartass posts about someone's post numbers. That in itself is like judging fermentation off of the airlock. Just because someone has less or more posts than you doesnt mean they are an expert. But then again, maybe they are.

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Revvy was the first one to mention his post count, I was simply replying. I also posted some parts from the How to Brew book... People have a choice to read a book written by a published author who is pretty well respected in the brewing community and do what works for them... or listen to what someone posting on a forum says.

earwig said:

Revvy was the first one to mention his post count, I was simply replying. I also posted some parts from the How to Brew book... People have a choice to read a book written by a published author who is pretty well respected in the brewing community and do what works for them... or listen to what someone posting on a forum says.

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And yet, Palmer has been referencing some things I have been saying about long primaries now as opposed to what he originally wrote in HTB about autolysis, even using my metaphors.

He has gone on to change what he wrote about it in subsequent versions of the books.

*shrug*

methinks you protest too much....I'm not going to argue this stupidity with you....we've been through this a million times.

Back in the bad old days, the predominant airlock was an s type...and often they were made of glass and sat relatively heavy in the grommet, and that's where people like papazain and those who influenced him got into the habit of counting bubbles...but now adays with 3 piecers being the norm, and most things being made crappy these days...it's just not a reliable means anymore.

The trouble is, that even the authors for the most part have been brewing so long that they don't pay attention to the airlock, yet the perpetuate the myth from the old days of bubbles meaning anything....though I figure, as a writer myself, they have long moved past the basic methodology that they wrote about...it's easy to do...to "preach" something very basic, while doing a process somewhat more complex...or like most of us who have been brewing awhile, taking shortcuts.

I'm guilty about it with my own books and articles.....You hold authors in too high esteem, and yes I'm an author....

And an author is just someone lucky enough to have made it through the publication hurdles....it doesn't mean that they are complete experts, for all you know I have a brewing book written and sitting at a publisher, or I don't.....just because someone has a book published, doesn't mean someone else isn't just as much an expert.....

Kai who posts on here doesn't have a book published, but he has forgotten more about German Brewing than Palmer will ever know.

Besides, A book is a snapshot of the author's body of knowlege and the "common wisdom" at the time the author wrote the book, which may mean 3 years before it was even published. Papazian's book is 30+ years old. The basic knowlege is good, but brewing science and experience has progressed to where some things an author believes or says at that time may no-longer be valid...even to the author.

John Palmer has changed many ideas since the online version of the book went up several years ago.

And so has CHarlie Papazian.

And I bet if Palmer answered 10,000 My airlock's not bubbling posts like I have, he would probably draw the same conclusion about it as I have....

Most of the time when someone "revises" a book they don't necessarilly "re-write" the entire thing...and unless they annotated the changes, often all a "revised" edition has to make it up to date is a new introduction, and maybe the addition or removal of some things. But Rarely is a revision in a book a serious comb through of the entire book.

For example Charlie, JUST discovered the idea of using rice hulls in his mash tun to prevent stuck sparges....So just maybe he could even maybe have learned some other things in the last 30 years as well, and just not gotten around to writting about it?

So cite Palmer all you want.....Believe what you want to believe I don't really care.

But I've answered and will continue to answer more new brewer's airlock issue than you will probably ever do...and get the same feedback I've gotten, and continue to rack up more followups of brewers who's beer fermented fine, with nary an airlock bubble...

Because that is the reality....AIrlocks bubble, or the don't...and it doesn't really matter.

I agree with all of what Revvy says, but it still confuses me that he only gets bubbles 50% of the time. It makes me feel like its a made up number to try and imprint his point in your head even further. If your lids are tight, you have the proper head space, you pitched the right amount of yeast, you should get fermentation bubbles almost every time. I've never had a batch that didn't bubble so maybe thats why its hard for me to understand.

It's also easy to miss the high krauesen stage, where you're probably going to see the most airlock activity. This is especially true for a lot of beginners who allow fermentation temps to get really high. A low or mid-gravity beer can pretty much finish literally overnight.

Revvy said:

Because that is the reality....AIrlocks bubble, or the don't...and it doesn't really matter.

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Well, in this case... the OP's airlock DID in fact begin to bubble... As I said earlier, LIKE YOU... I am speaking from MY experience, and the experience of others. I'd also bet my right testicle that in typical fermenting setups... the airlock will bubble 99 out of 100 times unless there is a leak or a problem.

People can choose to listen to you or anyone else and make a decision. You can spend all the time in the world responding to new brewers the way you see fit. You are a great asset to this forum and new brewers alike... I do though disagree with you on this subject. Maybe one day on my 1170th brew I will experience a fermentation that doesn't cause my 3 piece airlock to bubble and I'll change my mind; until then in MY eyes the airlock is a reliable source of active fermentation. And yes, I DO agree that a hydrometer reading is necessary to be sure fermentation is completed.

boostsr20 said:

I agree with all of what Revvy says, but it still confuses me that he only gets bubbles 50% of the time. It makes me feel like its a made up number to try and imprint his point in your head even further. If your lids are tight, you have the proper head space, you pitched the right amount of yeast, you should get fermentation bubbles almost every time. I've never had a batch that didn't bubble so maybe thats why its hard for me to understand.

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I'm sure under rare/certain conditions the airlock may not bubble... if he is only getting airlock activity 50% of the time he has too much head space, a leaky fermenter or a 1% abv beer.

boostsr20 said:

I agree with all of what Revvy says, but it still confuses me that he only gets bubbles 50% of the time. It makes me feel like its a made up number to try and imprint his point in your head even further. If your lids are tight, you have the proper head space, you pitched the right amount of yeast, you should get fermentation bubbles almost every time. I've never had a batch that didn't bubble so maybe thats why its hard for me to understand.

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So I have a reason to lie about??? Wtf????? Maybe that's Why I stared writing about this to begin with????? Could THAT be the reason????

And again, this is a ridiculously circular discussion that is frankly boring me. We've had it before, and we'll have it again. And it will sink to the bottom of the boring bin, just like this one.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/e...tor-fermentation-211673/?highlight=discussion

Where olllo or one of the other mods will say;

olllllo said:

This thread is an indication of a particular kind of fermentation.

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(hot air)

Revvy said:

So I have a reason to lie about??? Wtf????? Maybe that's Why I stared writing about this to begin with????? Could THAT be the reason????

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Sometimes people lie to try and prove a point. The Son of Sam said his dog spoke to him and told him to hurt people, hahaha.

Revvy said:

So I have a reason to lie about??? Wtf????? Maybe that's Why I stared writing about this to begin with????? Could THAT be the reason????

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Could be, but your response's in anger lead me to believe your a liar /sarcasm Its just my take on it. Rather than rambling on about all your research over the years. Why not tell us about the conditions you're seeing this happen with. What style of beer? Gravity? Yeast? Fermenter of choice? Could it just be that your a seasoned veteran and don't even look at your fermenter until 3 weeks later?

Regardless of what you say a high percentage of the time people should be getting airlock action and if they didn't, it was an error in their process/equipment.

When is too much headspace in a fermenter bad? Understanding the properties of CO2 would lead one to the conclusion of it doesnt matter. Since CO2 is heavier than oxygen, any CO2 will create a protective layer between the small amount of O2 in the air ABOVE the CO2. Want further proof? Krausen is pretty much a foamy blanket of CO2 and beer which protects the beer even further. Even Palmer says that. While I recognize what Palmer says as the trend in beer making currently, I wouldnt be so quick to try to judge ones expertise level based on weather or not he/she has written a book on the subject. Just think of your auto mechanic you trust. He probably hasnt written a Haynes manual but could fix your car without having to read one.

And I respectfully disagree with anyone who says an airlock is a tool to gauge fermentation. I would question those people's practices myself. Just look at a fermenter that has been sitting for roughly 8-10 days. Usually doesnt bubble at all. But fermentation may not be complete. Many of my fermenters dont bubble at all toward the end of the fermentation cycle. My lids are tight and I use a 6.5 gallon fermenter. Doesnt mean I am opening them up every day to check the gravities. Hell, I only take two gravities to check if fermentation is done. One on day 1 and the other on Day 3 after I think it should be complete.

WrongCoastBrewery said:

When is too much headspace in a fermenter bad? Understanding the properties of CO2 would lead one to the conclusion of it doesnt matter. Since CO2 is heavier than oxygen, any CO2 will create a protective layer between the small amount of O2 in the air ABOVE the CO2. Want further proof? Krausen is pretty much a foamy blanket of CO2 and beer which protects the beer even further. Even Palmer says that. While I recognize what Palmer says as the trend in beer making currently, I wouldnt be so quick to try to judge ones expertise level based on weather or not he/she has written a book on the subject. Just think of your auto mechanic you trust. He probably hasnt written a Haynes manual but could fix your car without having to read one.

And I respectfully disagree with anyone who says an airlock is a tool to gauge fermentation. I would question those people's practices myself. Just look at a fermenter that has been sitting for roughly 8-10 days. Usually doesnt bubble at all. But fermentation may not be complete. Many of my fermenters dont bubble at all toward the end of the fermentation cycle. My lids are tight and I use a 6.5 gallon fermenter. Doesnt mean I am opening them up every day to check the gravities. Hell, I only take two gravities to check if fermentation is done. One on day 1 and the other on Day 3 after I think it should be complete.

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I agree 100% with you. Its not a gauge. Your taking the discussion in a different direction though. We are all referring to the OP's question of
"It's been in the primary fermenter now for two days but I'm worried that fermentation isn't taking place at all."

And Most of us are wondering why Revvy gets NO AIRLOCK ACTIVITY AT ALL on HALF of his fermentations. Things just don't add up.

earwig said:

Sometimes people lie to try and prove a point. The Son of Sam said his dog spoke to him and told him to hurt people, hahaha.

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I wouldnt go as far to say that brewing data and the Son of Sam are on the same level. I would call that an exaggeration of extreme proportion. The only people who lie to prove a point are the people who are trying to defraud someone. I highly doubt that he is trying to defraud you. It could be a slight exaggeration, but not a lie. And people tend to get upset when they are called liars in a debate. I would be careful of the tone you put in your posts. No one likes someone who falsely calls someone a liar or cheat. I personally would be upset too.

boostsr20 said:

I agree 100% with you. Its not a gauge. Your taking the discussion in a different direction though. We are all referring to the OP's question of
"It's been in the primary fermenter now for two days but I'm worried that fermentation isn't taking place at all."

And Most of us are wondering why Revvy gets NO AIRLOCK ACTIVITY AT ALL on HALF of his fermentations. Things just don't add up.

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Most of us = you and Earwig

My post refers to a logical explanation of the discussion at hand. Not so off topic I think. Why do things need to add up? Why call him a liar? Oddly enough, fermentation will not be 100% the same for everyone. There are so many factors that go into it like yeast health, ambient temperature, ambient pressure, and so many others. I would go as far as to say who are you to say he is wrong? Maybe he doesnt. I have had fermenters not bubble or have little activity in the airlocks. My previous example of my cider (2.5 gallons in a 3 gallon fermenter) shows that it doesnt always happen. But then again you have to trust me that it really did happen or maybe I am lying too. Sorry, I mean over exaggerating.

WrongCoastBrewery said:

Most of us = you and Earwig

My post refers to a logical explanation of the discussion at hand. Not so off topic I think. Why do things need to add up? Why call him a liar? Oddly enough, fermentation will not be 100% the same for everyone. There are so many factors that go into it like yeast health, ambient temperature, ambient pressure, and so many others. I would go as far as to say who are you to say he is wrong? Maybe he doesnt. I have had fermenters not bubble or have little activity in the airlocks. My previous example of my cider (2.5 gallons in a 3 gallon fermenter) shows that it doesnt always happen. But then again you have to trust me that it really did happen or maybe I am lying too.

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I didn't mean to sound like I was calling him a liar. Thats not what I meant at all. But it my mind, it doesn't add up. Thats why I posed the question. To try and understand better. We are in the same state with nearly identical conditions most of the time. Once again, its a simple question with lots of complex answer which is why I asked about his setup. Revvy, sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was calling you a liar. My bad. I'm really just trying to understand this because no one else seems to have those kind of results and I know people on a big brewery scale that don't ever have problems with seeing fermentation signs through Co2 exiting the fermenter.

Just curious though. Since you think its just Me and Earwig questioning a 50% rate. You 100% believe that some that probably has a 1000 batches under his belt really only saw activity in 500 of them? I think a lot of people read that twice and think somethings not right to themselves.

WrongCoastBrewery said:

I wouldnt go as far to say that brewing data and the Son of Sam are on the same level. I would call that an exaggeration of extreme proportion. The only people who lie to prove a point are the people who are trying to defraud someone. I highly doubt that he is trying to defraud you. It could be a slight exaggeration, but not a lie. And people tend to get upset when they are called liars in a debate. I would be careful of the tone you put in your posts. No one likes someone who falsely calls someone a liar or cheat. I personally would be upset too.

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Well I will simply say that I believe you and Revvy are full of Sh*t for whatever reason... most likely just trying to prove a point. Since Revvy felt the need to post an example of someone mentioning that their beer turned out fine without any bubbles... I'll do the same, read this post in response to Revvy from someone else:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/fermentation-didnt-start-208516/index2.html#post2437085

jitteringjr said:

Flexing your experience muscle doesn't make it correct. However since you went there, I have been home brewing for 12 years and work at a commercial brewery where we see millions of barrels. We expect to see 2.5 volumes of CO2 per volume of beer and that number is also supported by the IBD so it is international. I have only had one 1 brew at home where it didn't bubble and it tasted like crap.

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Revvy has a habit of using his post count or experience as some proof that he knows more than everyone else. I don't care if he is handsome with gray hair and drives like crap. What he says contradicts what everyone I know in real life experiences.

WrongCoastBrewery said:

Most of us = you and Earwig

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BS "Most of us" equals EVERYONE who experiences airlock activity in 99% of their brews. I know MANY people who brew PERSONALLY. These are people I know in real life and these are observations that I have witnessed IN PERSON, MYSELF. Unless you are at everyone's house and watch their airlock, you cannot say who is having airlock activity and who isn't. Give it up.

earwig said:

Well I will simply say that I believe you and Revvy are full of Sh*t for whatever reason... most likely just trying to prove a point. Since Revvy felt the need to post an example of someone mentioning that their beer turned out fine without any bubbles... I'll do the same, read this post in response to Revvy from someone else:

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First off Sir, I wouldnt say that Revvy and I are against you. We just disagree. The only point I am trying to make is that every batch is different. Unless you brew professionally and are geared to make batches exactly the same each time, things will vary. I am not here trying to flex my post count as that is generally WRONG. I have said that at least once in the post on this thread. Just because we disagree with your thought process doesnt mean you or anyone else are the 100% correct answer. Same goes in reverse. I still question your brewing practices and thought processes on the matter of fermentation. Doesnt mean you are wrong or that I am right. Thats usually the idea behind a spirited debate such as this.

Secondly, I wont begin to even quantify the first comment you made about what we are full of because that is just plain rude and tactless. But hey, that statement goes to show me how open you are to other opinions. I guessing you read Palmer and think that it is the "word of God" in terms of brewing and you must also operate on the premise of "your way or the highway". Its ok man, keep brewing and living like that and see where it gets you.

boostsr20 said:

Just curious though. Since you think its just Me and Earwig questioning a 50% rate. You 100% believe that some that probably has a 1000 batches under his belt really only saw activity in 500 of them? I think a lot of people read that twice and think somethings not right to themselves.

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Just to point out something...if he's brewed 1000 beers and has only seen airlock activity in 500. Who is to say the other 500 didn't have airlock activity? I know he doesn't sit there watching it 24/7 and just because he didn't see it bubble doesn't mean it didn't. All he did was point out that you shouldn't use airlock activity as a gauge and posted examples which was then stated it could. It doesn't make him or you wrong...the only thing that's wrong with this whole thing is the fact that you're arguing about the wrong things and not helping the OP realize that a simple hydrometer reading could but all his questions to rest.


This is the beginners forum where the same questions get asked 1000000 times over. Not many people respond to these repeated questions but Revvy does and for the most part he puts all the info they need into the reply. In the end I feel that it's easier to explain that airlock activity isn't a judge and a hydrometer is.

boostsr20 said:

I didn't mean to sound like I was calling him a liar. Thats not what I meant at all. But it my mind, it doesn't add up. Thats why I posed the question. To try and understand better. We are in the same state with nearly identical conditions most of the time. Once again, its a simple question with lots of complex answer which is why I asked about his setup. Revvy, sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was calling you a liar. My bad. I'm really just trying to understand this because no one else seems to have those kind of results and I know people on a big brewery scale that don't ever have problems with seeing fermentation signs through Co2 exiting the fermenter.

Just curious though. Since you think its just Me and Earwig questioning a 50% rate. You 100% believe that some that probably has a 1000 batches under his belt really only saw activity in 500 of them? I think a lot of people read that twice and think somethings not right to themselves.

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Earwig, take a lesson from this man who apologizes for an errant comment.

I think it is only you because you two are the only ones questioning this on THIS thread. Like I said before, its probably an exaggeration, not fact. I personally have had two batches that I can think of where fermentation was either not visible via airlock or it was very slow via airlock. Breweries are designed for consistancy therefore they should see the same thing everytime. All I am saying is that if I were to calculate the times I have seen slow or non existant signs of airlock activity, it would be 20% of the time. That is actual fact from my number of batches brewed compared to batches that showed little or no sign of airlock activity. Those batches were ciders and a steam beers (lager at ale temp).

arch1tect said:

Just to point out something...if he's brewed 1000 beers and has only seen airlock activity in 500. Who is to say the other 500 didn't have airlock activity? I know he doesn't sit there watching it 24/7 and just because he didn't see it bubble doesn't mean it didn't. All he did was point out that you shouldn't use airlock activity as a gauge and posted examples which was then stated it could. It doesn't make him or you wrong...the only thing that's wrong with this whole thing is the fact that you're arguing about the wrong things and not helping the OP realize that a simple hydrometer reading could but all his questions to rest.


This is the beginners forum where the same questions get asked 1000000 times over. Not many people respond to these repeated questions but Revvy does and for the most part he puts all the info they need into the reply. In the end I feel that it's easier to explain that airlock activity isn't a judge and a hydrometer is.

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Well put.

arch1tect said:

Just to point out something...if he's brewed 1000 beers and has only seen airlock activity in 500. Who is to say the other 500 didn't have airlock activity? I know he doesn't sit there watching it 24/7 and just because he didn't see it bubble doesn't mean it didn't.

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He (Revvy) said there was no activity. I also said from the beginning... what I was posting was true in "typical" set ups... 5 gallon batches in a 6 or 6 1/2 gallon bucket or carboy. All I was trying to say is that... In this typical setup, there WILL be airlock activity 99 times out of 100 unless the fermenter is leaky or there is a problem. My experience, what I have read and what others I know in real life have told me leads me to this conclusion. Now to quote Revvy... "I'm not going to argue this stupidity with you....we've been through this a million times."

arch1tect said:

Just to point out something...if he's brewed 1000 beers and has only seen airlock activity in 500. Who is to say the other 500 didn't have airlock activity? I know he doesn't sit there watching it 24/7 and just because he didn't see it bubble doesn't mean it didn't. All he did was point out that you shouldn't use airlock activity as a gauge and posted examples which was then stated it could. It doesn't make him or you wrong...the only thing that's wrong with this whole thing is the fact that you're arguing about the wrong things and not helping the OP realize that a simple hydrometer reading could but all his questions to rest.


This is the beginners forum where the same questions get asked 1000000 times over. Not many people respond to these repeated questions but Revvy does and for the most part he puts all the info they need into the reply. In the end I feel that it's easier to explain that airlock activity isn't a judge and a hydrometer is.

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Well said. Thats exactly what I said earlier about Revvy. He's a seasoned brewer that knows to just leave it alone so he probably just misses the activity a lot.

But now to offer a counter to your spot on points. If the OP wasn't watching the airlock for the first two days, then why would he need to break out the hydrometer? Seemingly your implying that the airlock does have a purpose to show that there may be a fermentation problem if after 2 days of closely watching it, he hasn't seeing a single bubble. Which is my only point in this while thread. If your new to brewing, watching your pale like a hawk, and don't see a bubble within 2 days then its a good idea to break out the hydrometer.

earwig said:

He (Revvy) said there was no activity. I also said from the beginning... what I was posting was true in "typical" set ups... 5 gallon batches in a 6 or 6 1/2 gallon bucket or carboy. All I was trying to say is that... In this typical setup, there WILL be airlock activity 99 times out of 100 unless the fermenter is leaky or there is a problem. My experience, what I have read and what others I know in real life have told me leads me to this conclusion. Now to quote Revvy... "I'm not going to argue this stupidity with you....we've been through this a million times."

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I apologize for the off topic remark I am about to make.

He said that, I didnt. I just gave specific examples and numbers as to batches I have made that weren't typical. I am not doubting your personal brewing experiences. I wasnt there so I dont know. But calling someone a liar and then full of Sh*t is crossing the line. Just try to be a little more tollerant.