Cost of all-grain brewing vs MrBeer vs buying beer at the store

fearwig said:

I get that sentiment, but I think people go too far when they consider payment for their time. If we felt we had to get paid for everything we did in our off time to make it worthwhile, we'd probably stay in bed.

If you are brewing beer instead of working a second job and hoping to make that work out for you, I guess you should take this into consideration. Otherwise it's a pretty fair assumption you'd be sitting on your duff, and given that, it's a value.

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Exactly!

"Lost opportunity wages" is a false economic model. If you are paid hourly, and could get paid for 24 hours a day then you've got a reason to count the time.

Most of us don't.

I don't expect this hobby to pay me any more than I expect having a sailboat to pay me.

More to the point of the OP's question, I brew extract recipes. I know that I could buy beer cheaper than what it costs me to brew, but I couldn't buy comparable beer for less than it costs me to brew.

Rhumbline said:

I know that I could buy beer cheaper than what it costs me to brew, but I couldn't buy comparable beer for less than it costs me to brew.

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Yeah, this is such a big point. If you can get to where you can make "fancy" beer yourself, and be satisfied or even impressed as hell with the result, you are really saving some money. For instance, Saison Dupont is usually like $12 for a 750--so nearly $6/12oz bottle. Once you work out the method (particularly fermentation), you can definitely make a beer you like as much or more for $0.50-$1/bottle. So... why the hell not? That's not a small difference at all, you're probably actually getting paid OK for your time on a 5 or 10 gallon batch, assuming you were actually going to buy 5 gallons of that beer.

5gal: 52 (bottles) * $5 (savings/btl) / 8hrs (est) = $32.50/hr
10gal: 104 (bottles) * $5 (savings/btl) / 10hrs (est) = $42/hr

I think that's grossly pessimistic on both per-bottle costs and hours spent, you could probably "make" closer to $75-100/hr if your method is down or your scale is bigger. I sure as heck don't really spend $52 on ingredients for a batch of saison (more like $15). Obviously the brew day doesn't take 8hrs, but I'm both rounding up and thinking of all the time I spend poking my fermenters with a stick and sniffing them and stuff.

Many impressive beers don't have large ingredient costs, even if you don't buy hops or malt in bulk and use extract (though I think you start to come closer to parity with e.g. a big DIPA).

If I ignore the cost of my time, I save a LOT of money all-grain brewing. I recently switched to 10 gallon batches and save even more. Of course I would home brew anyway, but the cost savings is a bonus of this hobby. It at least pays for the equipment.

zzzman74 said:

Ok, so everyone says MrBeer is just a novelty toy. I've made a few batches and other than the low alcohol content, I like the taste of the beer. Based on helpful advice here, my wife and I are planning to upgrade our hobby to extract or all grain brewing.

My question is: what differences should we expect?

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Two big differences: Time and control

You give up more time to do extract and BIAB and even more for AG.
For that time you gain increasing control over the process and the finished product.

I brew for the same reasons I love to build furniture and play golf. I enjoy the process of getting better at it. These are processes that take a measure of commitment and practice to perfect (I use the term loosely because none of us will ever perfect any of them).

The economics of brewing are very simple to me. The fact that I can make excellent beer at an affordable price (even counting equipment) does nothing but make it an economically feasible hobby. I don't worry as long as we're someplace close to even.

Somewhere around two years ago, I brewed my first beer kit. (I love my wife) At that time I was in Pharmacy Tech School, and was so over whelmed with the possibility of making my family sick if I did anything at all wrong, no brewing for me. But, alas, I found out there are no pathogens found in beer that are harmful to humans, so a-brewing I will go. Costs, right. I made two extract kits, and for someone was clueless, (me) it wasn't great beer, but it was beer none-the-less. I compared the cost of brewing an extract batch versus AG, and the cost per batch was way cheaper, almost half the price.

I already had a 22 qt pot, bought two plastic buckets, actually four, two to make a Zapap tun, and two were just to brew. Three spigots, a hydrometer, a floating thermometer, and a lauter/sparge tun (made from two buckets), a bottling wand, and some tubing. So, four buckets from a bakery, maybe free, maybe $8.00, three spigots, $6.00, a floating thermometer, $7.00, a hydrometer, $7.00, a bottling wand, $4.00, tubing $5.00, and a $1.99 drill bit for the Zapap bucket.

You have a pasta pot, $0.00, plus $8.00, plus $6.00, plus $7.00. plus $7.00, plus $4.00, plus $5.00, plus $1.99.

$39.00 with everything bare bones needed to do AG. The last trip to my LHBS, cost me $19.85 for twenty pounds of mixed grains. With a few odds and ends I had, I made 12 gallons of 1.060 beer for $19.85.

I will say, I still use my home made Zapap tun every time I brew, and I make consistently good beer every time, sometimes I make great beer, and my 12-A Brown Porter just won a "Best In Category" in a local yearly Home Brewed Beer Contest. Am I proud?, you bet! Am I gloating over it? No, I am not. I have brewed many beers in the last year and a half, and never thought of ever entering another contest, due to the humiliation I received from my first contest scores. I was new, and I wanted to hear nice things about my beer, and they weren't worth scoring.
I have a turkey fryer setup I paid $20.00 at Wally World this Christmas. it came with a 50,000 BTU burner and a 30 qt aluminum pot. I had purchased a 40qt pot prior to buying the turkey fryer, and now I wish I had bought a 15 gallon. I got 8 gallons of 44* F water to a strong boil in what seemed like 10 minutes. My old burner would literally take an hour it seemed.

MindenMan said:

The last trip to my LHBS, cost me $19.85 for twenty pounds of mixed grains. With a few odds and ends I had, I made 12 gallons of 1.060 beer for $19.85.

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While I agree with the overall sentiment of your post, I don't think you're doing the OP a service by exaggerating the cost savings so unrealistically. Those "odds and ends" you had included have a cost associated with them, and it would only be fair to include that in your total cost. Furthermore, those "odds and ends" would have to include at least another 10 pounds of grain and sugar, as well as several ounces of hops and at least 3 packets of yeast or the equivalent in DME required to build up a starter of the necessary size. Not to mention the bottlecaps or CO2 required to bottle/keg the batch.

Like I said, I agree that you can save money by brewing all-grain, but there's no need to misrepresent the savings when it's clear your numbers are unrealistic. Even buying in bulk, you cannot brew 12 gallons of 1.060 beer for $20. Admitting that it's closer to $40 doesn't harm your argument at all, but misrepresenting the savings does.

My most expensive extract batch so far was under $30 including sales tax. 5 gallons of a nice 6% dry stout ain't bad.

Considering the direction we took with equipment I will NEVER recoup that in beer savings, however this is now a hobby for my boys (25 and 22) and they can participate in it as long as they'd like. It's also a chance for us to get together all in the same place and enjoy that time; can't put a price tag on that for me.

Roadie said:

Considering the direction we took with equipment I will NEVER recoup that in beer savings....

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Evidently you're just not drinkin' enough beer.

RPCidery said:

Evidently you're just not drinkin' enough beer.

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Or, he has one damn fine brewing setup:rockin:

RPCidery said:

Evidently you're just not drinkin' enough beer.

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How much would I have to drink to save $12k which is about where we are in brew stuff now?

Puddlethumper said:

...I brew for the same reasons I love to build furniture and play golf. I enjoy the process of getting better at it. These are processes that take a measure of commitment and practice to perfect (I use the term loosely because none of us will ever perfect any of them)...

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I play golf for the same reason I brew. I like to drink beer!

Roadie said:

How much would I have to drink to save $12k which is about where we are in brew stuff now?

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More?

Roadie said:

How much would I have to drink to save $12k which is about where we are in brew stuff now?

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I'm in the same boat your in and I don't even have my rig setup indoors. +1 for doing it for the love of brewing with family and friends.... and it's cheaper then maintaining and racing a car (my previous hobby)

Yeah Doc in my instance it was either a Canon 5dMkIII with a couple of lenses and continue saving for an Italy trip or the brewery. Chose the brewery as the older the boys get the less I see of them. The old camera still works ok so it will have to do.

bobby4 said:

If I ignore the cost of my time, I save a LOT of money all-grain brewing. I recently switched to 10 gallon batches and save even more. Of course I would home brew anyway, but the cost savings is a bonus of this hobby. It at least pays for the equipment.

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Why wouldn't you? Most of us enjoy brewing for the sake of brewing. If a person enjoys model trains, do they add up every house spent messing with their layout and say, "Dang, this hobby is just too expensive."?

Also, I've made this argument before and I just don't understand why you would count labor in brewing your own beer. I had part of my shingles on my roof blow off in a storm a few years ago. I got estimates to fix it, but it was just over our deductible of $500. I went out, bought $150 in shingles and fixed it on a Saturday afternoon. I wouldn't have been getting paid that day anyways, I didn't have to take that othe $350 out of the bank and throw it in the trash, so in reality, I saved $350 by spending an afternoon fixing my own roof. Hell, I fix my own brakes on my cars. Usually costs about $50 in parts. Look at my bank account and tell me I'm not saving money using my off work time to do it.

If you were a professional brewer, of course you have to count labor and time, there is a bottom line that you have to cover every month to remain a viable business. This isn't business though, it's a hobby. There are plenty of things people do around the house and in life to save money. Brewing can be one of those. But, you do have to be realistic and count all the costs to really get a good idea. Electricity, gas, equipment, consumables, tools, etc. In the long run though, if you brew enough, it's pretty easy to save money. Your trade off is obviously time, but this hobby is definitely a lot cheaper than golf.

Clonefan94 said:

Why wouldn't you? Most of us enjoy brewing for the sake of brewing. If a person enjoys model trains, do they add up every house spent messing with their layout and say, "Dang, this hobby is just too expensive."?

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Because not everyone brews for a hobby. Some people brew to save money on beer. If you are doing it to save money, you need to consider the time you spend on it and weather or not that time could be used in other ways (like fixing a roof) that would save you more. I am not one of those people myself, but for some that is a consideration.

I do a simple stove top all grain process using a 4 gallon kettle I bought at Walmart for $12 and a stainless steel strainer we got for our wedding (big enough to straddle the kettle opening). It's like BIAB but with a strainer.

I made a 2.5 gallon batch of Cream of Three Crops yesterday:
$7.99 for a 5lb bag of American 2-row from LHBS = ~$1.60/lb. I used 2.75lbs, so $4.40
1lb flaked maize from LHBS = $1.99
1/2lb of Minute Rice = ~$1.75
Safale US-05 packet = $3.99

Total: around $12.15 for a guesstimate of 20+ bottles (after hydrometer readings etc).

$12.15/20 = $0.61 per bottle. That's $7.32 for a 12-pack. Not bad. Plus I get to say that I made it.

Of course, as others said, you have your equipment costs (avoid equipment bloat if you can), and incidentals like bottle caps, priming sugar, sanitizer, etc.

As best I can figure, with all grain at a good price, you're still roughly breaking even with just buying beer. But making your own beer, and beer that you like and can share with others, it totally cool and fun

You can certainly shop around for the cheapest prices you can find, but on a brew day when something goes wrong or I'm missing something, I like supporting a local shop so I can run and get supplies in a pinch, instead of calling off the brew day or worse just ending up with a botched batch.

stonecutter2 said:

I made a 2.5 gallon batch of Cream of Three Crops yesterday:
$7.99 for a 5lb bag of American 2-row from LHBS = ~$1.60/lb. I used 2.75lbs, so $4.40
1lb flaked maize from LHBS = $1.99
1/2lb of Minute Rice = ~$1.75
Safale US-05 packet = $3.99

Total: around $12.15

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Cream of Three Crops also includes 2 oz. of hops in a 5 gallon batch, so you'd need to account for an ounce of hops in your 2.5 oz. batch. It's not much, but it's not nothing either. Also sales taxes, if your state has any.

Conefan - at my stage of life money for brewing supplies is not an issue, but when I was young it was. I have a friend in the building trades who has had some financial set backs, and he tells me 'every hour on a hobby is an hour when I am not working'. He has 4 kids to feed, so beer is low on the priority list. I bring him home brew to ease his pain

bobby4 said:

He has 4 kids to feed, so beer is low on the priority list. I bring him home brew to ease his pain

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Sounds like you are a good friend.

I think you've hit on a key point here. I doubt there are many on this forum who brew simply to save money on beer. Young people I know who are on a tight budget are just like I was at their age ... they aren't spending money on brewing equipment and supplies. If they want a beer they go an buy a 6 pack of something they can afford and have a beer or two.

Quite frankly, I suspect the fact that we can make beer cheaper than we can buy it simply makes the hobby affordable. When we start adding up equipment costs, time brewing and arguing with others on the internet about brewing, etc. the cost savings argument largely serves as justification rather than a reason.

Cheers!

TallDan said:

Because not everyone brews for a hobby. Some people brew to save money on beer. If you are doing it to save money, you need to consider the time you spend on it and weather or not that time could be used in other ways (like fixing a roof) that would save you more. I am not one of those people myself, but for some that is a consideration.

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I see what you are saying, but if you aren't actually taking money out of an account and just throwing that money away, or you aren't taking time off of work to brew, then you don't have to count it as "money." I agree time has a value, but to say, "Well, I make $25/hr at work, so I have to add in that $25/hr. in the cost of my brews, is crazy. if saving money is your sole purpose for brewing, then taking your free time to brew is just that, free.

In my opinion, adding labor costs is only applicable to business. Or, if you are so hurting for money, you'd be better off getting a second job instead of brewing. That's why people do things for themselves. IF you aren't paying for labor, you are saving that money. And if you are brewing so much, that you can't get to other tasks around the house that you should be doing, so it's costing you money on that front, then you should just go pro or really slow down on your drinking. That being said, if you can't find 6 hours once a month or so to brew up an all grain batch, then you probably are better off buying it anyways. If you are that busy, you deserve and easy way to get drunk.

I have to admit that I've been blessed by never having to choose between booze and food for my kids. I'd like to think that if that had been the case that I'd have been strong enough to make the right choices but I won't presume.

You're a good friend, and I hope your friend realizes the value is much more than just the occasional six-pack.

Rhumbline said:

I have to admit that I've been blessed by never having to choose between booze and food for my kids. I'd like to think that if that had been the case that I'd have been strong enough to make the right choices but I won't presume.

You're a good friend, and I hope your friend realizes the value is much more than just the occasional six-pack.

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I've had to choose between booze and making bills. Those were dark, dry days indeed. One more reason to be able to make your own.

Well, if you consider you might like to have a couple beers in the afternoon, and instead you brew some beer while having a couple beers, I'm not sure why you would consider the billable time for your profession as a minus....

Clonefan94 said:

I see what you are saying, but if you aren't actually taking money out of an account and just throwing that money away, or you aren't taking time off of work to brew, then you don't have to count it as "money." I agree time has a value, but to say, "Well, I make $25/hr at work, so I have to add in that $25/hr. in the cost of my brews, is crazy. if saving money is your sole purpose for brewing, then taking your free time to brew is just that, free.

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I think my time is worth more when I have "free time" that's why I don't work more than needed. I would never change someone the same price per hour that I get paid to do, even the same work. I change double what I'm paid. if you add the time of everything getting ingredients, setup, research, gathering bottles, including making the beer I'm at 6 plus hours. $150(x2 because I change double), there goes any benefits. no way I would do this just to save money.

To answer the OP's question:

Simplified: $25 is probably the median I spend for a 5 gal batch (I might brew an IPA that's low/mid 30s or a blonde or ordinary bitter thats ~18 bucks). Considering the yield on a batch is ~2 cases and my previous goto store-bought was $23.95 per case of Sierra Nevada at Costco, judging by material costs alone, homebrew is a 50% discount.

I've started doing BIAB and if I take away all but the most necessary gear from my setup, we're probably talking $250-300 for what I'd consider the bare minimum (that still keeps it fun). DISCLAIMER: this is only based on the stuff that I personally have. I took advantage of some sales/deals, but this is about what someone could expect to pay.

* 16 gal stainless brew kettle w/ ball valve (I know you could go smaller, aluminum, and no valve for cheaper, but I got mine for $150 on AMZ and those things all contribute to the "keeping it fun" stipulation)
* 6 gal off-brand PET carboy w/ medium stopper and airlock
* jumbo grain bag
* hydrometer and wine thief
* floating thermometer
* bottling bucket and wand
* auto-siphon and ~12' of 3/8" vinyl tubing
* big stainless steel spoon

As an aside addressing the time discussion, I think we all understand the hobby aspect and nobody gets into it only to save money, but I do understand the inclination to underscore that fact. I've talked to plenty of friends about homebrewing who show little interest until I mention the fact that the reasonably tasty beer they're drinking can be made for about 9 dollars a case...

F_R_O_G said:

I think my time is worth more when I have "free time" that's why I don't work more than needed. I would never change someone the same price per hour that I get paid to do, even the same work. I change double what I'm paid. if you add the time of everything getting ingredients, setup, research, gathering bottles, including making the beer I'm at 6 plus hours. $150(x2 because I change double), there goes any benefits. no way I would do this just to save money.

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Again, you are talking about what you would charge someone to do something on your free time. And as I said, in a business model, yes, you have to add that labor in there as a cost. Free time is free time though, how I choose to use it and how you choose to use it can be different. But, you aren't paying yourself when you do things for yourself. So my point is, that to tell someone they couldn't save money brewing their own beer, because of labor costs, is flat out wrong. This isn't a business.

Yes, labor wise, I'd probably do better to pay someone to fix my roof, replace my brakes, fix a broken tie rod, etc, but to me, keeping a couple of hundred dollars in the bank is worth putting out a little labor. It's not like I'm constantly working on my roof, I have to do a brake job maybe once every 4 years, so they are jobs I can squeeze in and still have "free time" to spend as I please.

At the end of the day, if that money is still in the bank that you'd have paid for beer, and you are drinking beer, you saved money. You probably didn't save time or labor, but you definitely saved money.

Here is how I justified it (to my wife and to myself)

If I didn't go out and blow a giant wad of cash on brewing (equipment, not ingredients), I'd just find an even more expensive hobby.

I have many friends that think my brewery was a waste of money (I'm at the medium / high end of cost, ~$3500 or so), but these are the same guys that buy snowmobiles and use them a few times a year. Or have a bass boat worth tens of thousands that sits in their garage 99% of the year. Hunting land for a week long deer season, that sort of thing.

To each their own. In the big scheme of hobbies for grownups, I don't think brewing is that expensive. I get a lot out of the hobby, not just beer. I like working on recipes, posting on HBT, going to club meetings, and just day-dreaming about how I'm going to change the process next time. The way I look at it, the more time I spend on it, the better investment my equipment was. It keeps me from doing other expensive things.

To the original question:

I don't purchase anything in bulk (no room to store), and I use liquid yeast 1/2 the time, depending on the recipe. I can do a 5g batch for under 20, or a pliny the elder clone for around 50. In southeastern MI where I am, you can't get a nice 6-pck for under 10 bucks (I sure miss WI). Sometimes they get up around 15-17. So, I can save a ton of money, not counting equipment.

If I do count equipment, it will be a long time before I break even. Especially considering I haven't stopped buying stuff... there's always something new that I MUST have. I get into brewery automation as well, which adds some cost.

As others mentioned, you can do AG on the cheap with a big pot and a mesh bag. If you are wanting to stick with the Mr Beer size batches, a 5g al pot can be had for $40 bucks, and a 5g paint strainer for maybe 2. You can stick with using your stove, then, and the same fermenter.

The cheapest and easiest way to get craft beer is to buy it in commercial kegs at the local microbrewery or liquor store. If you have no interest in brewing do this.

If you want to lean and understand the process of making beer than you can put together a basic all grain setup for a few hundred dollars and make great beer. Search for cooler MLT or Brew in a Bag (BIAB) and pick up a copy of Palmer's How to Brew. I would recommend using an extract brew kit for the first couple batches.

Also note that the AG 50 cents per bottle cost is ingredients only and you are working for free. If you enjoy the brewing hobby than this works out fine.

After a few years I'm finally seeing some good returns on my investment in equipment.

• I buy bulk base grain and hops by the pound. That significantly reduces ingredient costs.
• I use NG, so I'm not constantly refilling propane tanks at $22 a pop.
• I have all of my equipment. I have a nice stand, tricked out pots, and an O2 setup.
• I use 50% RO water.
• I slant yeast, so a $7 smack pack can last me up to a year.
• I do 6-gallon batches assuming I get 5-gallons of beer at the end of the process.

At think point in time I do a low ABV batch (4%-5%) for about $20. A high ABV batch (7%-9%) with a lot of hops runs $25-$30. Not too bad for a few cases of pretty good beer.

The most I've spent on a batch of beer was a Belgian Quad I recently did. I bought every ingredient online. The Belgian candi sugar was a killer. I think the cost was around $80. Now if it turns out well, I should have 30 bombers of good beer that would cost me $300-$350 in a store. Of course, that's if it turns out. My fingers are crossed.

Also, what I've spent on equipment can never be included, or the whole thing goes to hell. I prefer to do my accounting like the government.

The whole saving money aspect can in my opinion be boiled down (see what I did there?) to yourself, and self control.

Equipment is generally your biggest investment. If you find the equipment that works for you and can manage to control yourself so that you do not buy all sorts of stuff you do not need, you can keep this at a reasonable one time cost. DIY if you can saves a fair bit, buying used helps too, as does buying once instead of constantly upgrading.

As for ingredients, buying in bulk (grains, hops, etc), reuse (yeast washing/freezing/starters) will save you money, as will other persuits like growing your own hops if you want to go that route. Extracts will cost more as there was more processing work done.

I believe that shy of this new pot I just bought I have pretty much broken even if I had bought in bottles the beers I have been brewing. Most of my savings though have been from bulk grain purchases.

I happened to stumble on this thread and figured I would add my experience thus far. I have only been doing this for about a year so my methods may not be the most cost effective. Also, started doing this with my brother as a hobby and not with the intention to save money. That being said, I just happened to have a spread sheet with all my costs captured (I use spread sheets all day long at work so why wouldn't I also have one for home brewing? ).

As mentioned earlier, there are lots of variables that can affect the final brew cost so here are some key items with my current situation.
- I have never used Mr Beer however I started with Brewer's Best kits before I switched to all grain.
- I buy grains from a local HB store for each brew day (from their bulk bins ....... I am not sure if this is considered buying in bulk or not).
- I have the grains crushed at the LHBS, I don't have a grain mill
- I buy yeast packs and have not learned how to do yeast starters yet.
- I bottle and have not learned to keg yet (and all the bottles were accumulated over time by me from craft brews ...... I did not buy any new home brew bottles).
- My starter (kit beer) set up was a typical $200 starter kit and I added a 5 gallon kettle, bottle tree, extra fermenter and a few other bits.
- My All Grain set up uses the stuff from the Kit + Two 10 Gallon coolers, a converted keggle, and a Blichmann burner.
- I brew about every other month 10 gallons at a time that I split with my brother.
- My All Grain Set Up is a very modest 3 tier gravity set up with no pumps or electronic goodies.

Here is what I see the costs being ......