I love DME...

CidahMastah · Feb 23, 2011

Interesting - I do know a 60 minute boil is usually recomended with at least 50% Extract up front in most cases. It is necessary to stabilize the wort and achieve a "hot break", and doing a 60 minute boild on the wort does this.

This is noted throughout internet postings and regurgitated through friends. But I am not a source to quote on the matter.

I do know with pilsner malt, it is standard to boil 90 minutes to stabilize the wort via a hot break. I am not sure if there is a higher protien content in the pilsner malt or what, but I know the aim is to break down the protiens beyond a certian point before fermentation.

mixedbrewer · Feb 23, 2011

Its extract... the malt has already had a hot break when it was extracted. If you hot break it again you are damaging that many more proteins.

Indyking · Feb 23, 2011

CidahMastah said:
Interesting - I do know a 60 minute boil is usually recomended with at least 50% Extract up front in most cases. It is necessary to stabilize the wort and achieve a "hot break", and doing a 60 minute boild on the wort does this.

This is noted throughout internet postings and regurgitated through friends. But I am not a source to quote on the matter.

I do know with pilsner malt, it is standard to boil 90 minutes to stabilize the wort via a hot break. I am not sure if there is a higher protien content in the pilsner malt or what, but I know the aim is to break down the protiens beyond a certian point before fermentation.

It is important to boil DME for some time, no question about that, but not so much to accomplish a hot break since most extracts don't even get a hot break. Most of the "hot break" was already achieved when preparing the extract.

I think Pilsner malt actually has a lower protein content compared to others, which results in a higher extract content and lighter color.

Indyking · Feb 23, 2011

mixedbrewer said:
Its extract... If you hot break it again you are damaging that many more proteins.

Hey, I'm sorry, you keep saying that and I can’t help it but interfere! I never heard of such thing as damaging proteins in extracts. Proteins are denaturated during boiling; so they already come denaturated in extracts. There is no chance of damaging anything in DME during boiling. The resulting amino acids from denaturation are important for head retention and body. Length of boiling will not interfere with the amino acid content of extracts!

In the AG world, the less modified malts don't have their proteins solubilized and readily available to go into solution for denaturation during boiling after the mashing process. That's why some malts require a protein rest. That's the neat thing about the AG brewing; you master it better when you understand the science that drives it.

mixedbrewer · Feb 23, 2011

I am just passing along what I heard on Brew Strong. When I get home I will find the podcast and post the link.

LostBavarianMan · Feb 23, 2011

I am an extract brewer and I like the use of DME but I boil it also I dont have a problem with it.
mixedbrewer man calm down if dont want people to give there OPINIONS dont post in a public forum.
BREW ON.

mixedbrewer · Feb 23, 2011

LostBavarianMan said:
mixedbrewer man calm down if dont want people to give there OPINIONS dont post in a public forum.
BREW ON.

Here is another one. The fire has all but burned out and here is a guy trying to blow on it. Don't even bother. This thread is dead.

Rev2010 · Feb 23, 2011

Have to agree a bit here with the damaged proteins. I don't care if it was said on brewstrong or wherever, I just don't buy it. People have full length boiled their DME for years and no ones changed "the method", so I'll take it as hogwash.

Rev.

mixedbrewer · Feb 23, 2011

"One partial solution to all these issues is to reduce the gravity of the boil by saving some of the extract until the end of the boil. This last extract can be boiled for just a few minutes for pasteurization and then cooled and diluted in the fermenter as before. The result is less wort darkening, better foam stability, and a reduction of potential off-flavors. I have made very good extract beers with this method; your mileage may vary".

- John Palmer-

CidahMastah · Feb 23, 2011

Rev2010 said:
Have to agree a bit here with the damaged proteins. I don't care if it was said on brewstrong or wherever, I just don't buy it. People have full length boiled their DME for years and no ones changed "the method", so I'll take it as hogwash.

Rev.

I agree, I think this is something some people said, thinking about it intuitively, but with no scientific fact behind it. If it were the case, why do all the kits tell you to through the DME or LME in at the start of your 60 min boil?

I concede that Jamil is knowledgable, but everyone is prone to saying things they "think" but have no proof of.

Indy King - See I thought pilsner would have to have lower proteins too (intuitively thought this).... But when I read why people boil for 90 minutes, the answer was to break down proteins to a certain extent farther. Perhaps this is a style choice, having little to do with protein content (i.e. you are right it has less), more to do with wanting less than typical protein representation. Looks like i have some research to do!

Indyking · Feb 23, 2011

mixedbrewer said:
"One partial solution to all these issues is to reduce the gravity of the boil by saving some of the extract until the end of the boil. This last extract can be boiled for just a few minutes for pasteurization and then cooled and diluted in the fermenter as before. The result is less wort darkening, better foam stability, and a reduction of potential off-flavors. I have made very good extract beers with this method; your mileage may vary".

- John Palmer-

I don't see that saying anything about damaging proteins in DME with long boils. In fact, I think JP is talking about LME in that quote. I want see that podcast. Show us! Not that I'm going to believe it, but I kindda doubt JP and Jamil said what you are claiming!

Rev2010 · Feb 23, 2011

mixedbrewer said:
"One partial solution to all these issues is to reduce the gravity of the boil by saving some of the extract until the end of the boil. This last extract can be boiled for just a few minutes for pasteurization and then cooled and diluted in the fermenter as before. The result is less wort darkening, better foam stability, and a reduction of potential off-flavors. I have made very good extract beers with this method; your mileage may vary".

Was this from his site or book? It's also cutoff so I can't really gather the issues he was addressing. I don't have the book on me as I'm at work, but if it's the site or some other please do give a link. And why "some of the extract"? Why not all?? This still sounds more akin to LME than DME.

Even still, as much as I respect Palmer, just because he's incredibly experienced and knowledgeable does not exactly make a comment true. I can't even count how many times our top leading scientists have flip flopped on their advice and recommendations.

Rev.

Indyking · Feb 23, 2011

CidahMastah said:
Indy King - See I thought pilsner would have to have lower proteins too (intuitively thought this).... But when I read why people boil for 90 minutes, the answer was to break down proteins to a certain extent farther. Perhaps this is a style choice, having little to do with protein content (i.e. you are right it has less), more to do with wanting less than typical protein representation. Looks like i have some research to do!

We can do our research and get the right info if necessary, but I'm pretty sure the 90 min boil for Pilsen malt is recommended to remove the volatile DMS, which can cause a corn flavor to the beer. The DMS is removed during kilning in most malts but since Pilsen is very lightly kilned, it still hold some.

SwampassJ · Feb 23, 2011

Indyking said:
We can do our research and get the right info if necessary, but I'm pretty sure the 90 min boil for Pilsen malt is recommended to remove the volatile DMS, which can cause a corn flavor to the beer. The DMS is removed during kilning in most malts but since Pilsen is very lightly kilned, it still hold some.

Bingo with the 90 minute boil for Pilsner malts (and for some reason I want to say for a version called "Lager malt" sold in the UK". Oh **** off topic alert.

mixedbrewer · Feb 23, 2011

Its from How To Brew edition 3. If you guys dont want to believe it, thats fine. Its just John Palmer... what does he know? And there are a ton of people who add extract at the end of the boil. Search around the forum, you will find big threads about it.

CidahMastah · Feb 23, 2011

Indyking said:
We can do our research and get the right info if necessary, but I'm pretty sure the 90 min boil for Pilsen malt is recommended to remove the volatile DMS, which can cause a corn flavor to the beer. The DMS is removed during kilning in most malts but since Pilsen is very lightly kilned, it still hold some.

Yup that is correct - chalk it up to a new AG guy. Not sure why I was recalling "proteins" instead of "DMS". They don't even sound similar! ha

Dag nab it :off:

Rev2010 · Feb 23, 2011

mixedbrewer said:
Its just John Palmer... what does he know? And there are a ton of people who add extract at the end of the boil. Search around the forum, you will find big threads about it.

I have, we all have, and so far I've only seen late additions recommended for LME, not DME. And the primary reason I've seen that listed for LME is because LME is a thick goop that will rest on the bottom of the pot and can thereby scorch and caramelize more easily - makes sense to me.

Rev.

mixedbrewer · Feb 23, 2011

Believe what you want, but there is more to it than that.

CidahMastah · Feb 23, 2011

mixedbrewer said:
Its from How To Brew edition 3. If you guys dont want to believe it, thats fine. Its just John Palmer... what does he know? And there are a ton of people who add extract at the end of the boil. Search around the forum, you will find big threads about it.

mixedbrewer said:
I actually add my DME at the very end of the boil. DME has already been cooked once when it was made, so boiling it again for another 60 minutes will might start to destroy what proteins are left.

But palmer talks about late additions like 50% at start and 50% at the end , not 100% at the end like you were saying. Maybe you confused the process of late additions as meaning all extract as a late addition? I am sure some people do that, but most consider late additions a split %age.

mixedbrewer · Feb 23, 2011

Since I usually do a mini mash, and use DME to supplement it, I add all 3 lbs at the end.

Indyking · Feb 23, 2011

Rev2010 said:
I have, we all have, and so far I've only seen late additions recommended for LME, not DME. And the primary reason I've seen that listed for LME is because LME is a thick goop that will rest on the bottom of the pot and can thereby scorch and caramelize more easily - makes sense to me.

Rev.

+1. The late addition JP talks about in his book is for LME. When JP nicely walk the reader thru their first extract batch, he asks to add the DME in the beginning of the boil.

And I do have much respect for a guy like JP, because his book is great and he is quite a nice guy. I once emailed him a question and was surprised to find an answer a few hours later. Not to say he is immune to mistakes, even the experts are, but he does a good job.

SwampassJ · Feb 23, 2011

mixedbrewer said:
Its from How To Brew edition 3. If you guys dont want to believe it, thats fine. Its just John Palmer... what does he know? And there are a ton of people who add extract at the end of the boil. Search around the forum, you will find big threads about it.

Adding extract late helps with hop utilization and with the issue of darkening and scorching the wort. I can't find anything about protein denaturing except for posts saying "I heard this or that" without quotes.

mixedbrewer · Feb 23, 2011

I said I would post the link to the Brew Strong where he talk about proteins and boiling extract. I can't do it at this moment because I have to listen to the podcasts to find it.

Indyking · Feb 23, 2011

SwampassJ said:
Adding extract late helps with hop utilization and with the issue of darkening and scorching the wort. I can't find anything about protein denaturing except for posts saying "I heard this or that" without quotes.

Agree! But how come no joke this time? Men, you are quite funny!

Indyking · Feb 23, 2011

mixedbrewer said:
I said I would post the link to the Brew Strong where he talk about proteins and boiling extract. I can't do it at this moment because I have to listen to the podcasts to find it.

Here is what I think. This ounce dead thread was surprisingly becoming interesting and educative and now you are trying to ruin it? :-o

Rev2010 · Feb 23, 2011

mixedbrewer said:
Believe what you want, but there is more to it than that.

Um, ok there.

Rev.

BierMuncher · Feb 23, 2011

This is a forum. Make a statement and expect to have a "lively" discussion ensue. If I state that I like chocolate and pose the question "why do people frown on chocolate?", I'm sure all of the vanilla lovers will weigh in.
Just because they are vanilla loving fools...that doesn't make their discussion off-topic.
Keep discussions pointed at the topic...not at each other.

Take a breather. Have a beer. Try again later.

I love DME...

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