Nitro style pour using argon

About a week ago, there was a brief, hypothetical (and OT) discussion on this topic in this thread.

I recently brewed a sweet stout that really needs a nitro-style pour to make it perfect. However, I live in a tiny town, my local gas supplier is TERRIBLE, and I don't have beer gas or nitrogen available. I do, however, have plenty of argon, since I use it for welding.

Argon is completely inert, harmless, odorless, and roughly 4 times more water soluble than nitrogen (about the same solubility as oxygen). Since I've never had a "fizzy" oxygenated beverage, it seems safe to assume that argon won't add any "fizz" to the product. So, I swapped the flow gauge on a spare argon regulator for a low pressure gauge, set the pressure at 25 psi, and hooked it up to a slightly carbonated keg of stout.

The result:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTruPbc1IfU]YouTube - Stout pour with argon[/ame]

It's going to take some time for things to normalize, so I'll update the thread after a few days and let you know if the setup is still working as well.

Interesting.
I'm too tired and too think about this now. I'll follow the tread and do a little research.

orfy said:

I'm too tired and too think about this now. I'll follow the tread and do a little research.

Click to expand...

Um, unless Google is wrong, it is only 7:30 PM in England right now... hitting the sause a little early I see? I really can't say anything, it is only 2:30 here and so have I... heh

John Beere said:

hitting the sause

Click to expand...

Freudian slip?

Yuri_Rage said:

Freudian slip?

Click to expand...

Heh... no, no - I lika da sause.

Back on topic - that is very interesting. I too have a 2.5 lb bottle of Argon, but unlike you I don't weld - so I had no idea what to do with it. I'll be interested to see if this works out for you...

I think I still have a bottle of Argon laying around in the garage....but I don't keg yet. I think I'll dig it out and hold onto it for a while until I get kegging. It'd be nice to have a stout tap setup. I would love to get a recipe for the Stone XII Bitter Chocolate Oatmeal Stout, or something close.

ya i really need to get around to doing this, i wounder if he can put this in my nitrogen tank?

I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone thought "You know, we already use CO2 and nitrogen for beer, but what about OTHER gases?"

Not even slightly surprised that it's Yuri was the guinea pig...

Way to go, and here's hoping that this opens up a whole new realm of beer possibilities

Looks like another breakthrough product from YuriCo. Since argon has about 1/3 the solubility of CO2 this looks like a real option, you wouldn't have to mix or pre-carbonate. It will be interesting to see what it is like in another week.

That is very interesting. I just drove 35 miles and spent $100 to get a bottle of beer gas. My cousins own a steel company, so I can get Argon for free. If you don't grow a hump on your back, I will try this when my bottle is empty.

To avoid the stabilization and absorption issues, why not put a valve in the argon line. Carbonate to your desired low level, then turn the argon valve to on for serving and off when you are not.

That way you wouldn't have to worry about equalization.

Boerderij Kabouter said:

Carbonate to your desired low level, then turn the argon valve to on for serving and off when you are not.

Click to expand...

Sure, that would work...but how cool would it be if that were unnecessary?

So much for those Low-E, "Argon" filled windows I just installed. Now I gotta figure out how to use the FoodSaver to get me some Argon.

Yuri_Rage said:

Sure, that would work...but how cool would it be if that were unnecessary?

Click to expand...

Point taken

How would a tank of C25 (25%co2/75%argon) work with this? I understand that you need the co2 anyway.

I have a tank of C25 for my mig, also a tank of 100% argon for tig, and I have a batch of oatmeal stout I brewed yesterday. This would be great to use gas I already have.

Thanks for the awesome idea!

I'm really interested in this, Yuri! Thanks for the idea. I get my CO2 from a welding supply house near work. FermentEd gave me a nice stout tap for a wedding gift (sweet) and when I asked my welding supply about beer gas, it was $100 for a 10 lb. bottle, $80 per refill and I'd have to drop it off and wait a couple of days to get it filled. This using Argon thing might be a lot easier and less expensive.

C25 is pretty close to beer gas. It should work, but you may have to tweak the serving pressure a bit in order to get the perfect pour. Go for it!

Rhoobarb - I'm surprised that beer gas is so expensive! I thought low cost was the main reason for using nitrogen over another non-reactive, relatively insoluble gas.

Yuri_Rage said:

C25 is pretty close to beer gas. It should work, but you may have to tweak the serving pressure a bit in order to get the perfect pour. Go for it...

Click to expand...

Sounds good to me, we will see how the c25 works in about 6 weeks.

UPDATE:
No issues whatsoever after a week. Works like a charm! Serving pressure has been set at 28 psi.

Do you think it would be unreasonable to serve beer on argon with a standard faucet rather than a stout faucet, due to the absence of a restrictor plate? I know that when I've poured while force carbing at 30PSI it's been pretty forceful but i wonder if it would be at least manageable with argon instead of CO2 in solution.

I guess it's kind of a moot point for most people (myself included), because even though a stout faucet is kind of expensive, it's not so bad by comparison to an argon tank/reg if you don't already have one... But I'm still curious.

I don't think 30 psi through a standard faucet would work well for anything (unless you have a very long run of beer line, but that's not really your question).

Good stuff, Yuri. Thanks for sharing.

Yuri with that being 100% Argon and no CO2, have you had any problems with your keg going flat?

DutchK9 said:

Yuri with that being 100% Argon and no CO2, have you had any problems with your keg going flat?

Click to expand...

Nope! With positive pressure all the time, where's the CO2 gonna go?

I know this thread is dead but I believe it is better to revive than start a new conversation so here I go:

Out of interest has anyone tried the C25 vs carbing with CO2 then using pure argon? Also I mostly brew mead but happen to do enough beer that swmbo enjoys to have recently set up a keezer, if I was to add my mead to this system as well would I want to use C25 on my mead, the CO2/Argon set up you used, or the most likely pure Argon - I know ya'll do beer on this thread but that said you all all tend to be more knowledgeable than myself.

Anyways now that I have potentially revived this long dead thread I thank you

If you want still mead, push with nitrogen or argon. If you want weakly sparking mead, use C25 (which is the equivalent of "beer gas" with argon instead of nitrogen). If you want sparkling mead, use CO2.

Due to the expense, I see no reason for a homebrewer to buy beer gas or C25. Carbonate with CO2. For stouts, push with nitrogen. For other beers, push with CO2. For still wine/mead/cider, don't use any CO2 in the process at all, push with nitrogen. If you're like me and always have argon on hand, replace nitrogen with argon for nearly identical results.

So if I understand correctly, you just carb your kegs with CO2 to the desired lvl and then push the with argon through a stout faucet? I've had a hard time getting beer gas and the cost sucks so this would be a nice alternative. Is the regulator for the argon the same as one you can buy for a nitro tank?

On topic, I know a brewery that did a sour rye saison and purged with Argon. Very drinkable.

GryphonBrew said:

So if I understand correctly, you just carb your kegs with CO2 to the desired lvl and then push the with argon through a stout faucet? I've had a hard time getting beer gas and the cost sucks so this would be a nice alternative. Is the regulator for the argon the same as one you can buy for a nitro tank?

Click to expand...

Exactly. If I didn't have a reason to keep argon around, I'd just use nitrogen. It's cheaper. Same tank, same fitting.

I have serious doubts about the claims that the presence of nitrogen contributes to foam stability. I know that it's published in countless texts, but nitrogenation just isn't the primary goal. It's high pressure through a restrictor plate that makes all the difference. After my experiences with argon, I'm even more convinced that the nitrogen stabilization claim is BS. Mythbusters?

Yuri_Rage said:

Exactly. If I didn't have a reason to keep argon around, I'd just use nitrogen. It's cheaper. Same tank, same fitting.


I have serious doubts about the claims that the presence of nitrogen contributes to foam stability. I know that it's published in countless texts, but nitrogenation just isn't the primary goal. It's high pressure through a restrictor plate that makes all the difference. After my experiences with argon, I'm even more convinced that the nitrogen stabilization claim is BS. Mythbusters?

Click to expand...

I had never though of just pushing with nitrogen after force curbing with CO2. You say nitro is cheaper than argon? And no issue with the beer loosing carbonation volume as the headspace in the keg grows during consumption? Sam overall results... Huh. Don't know why the guy at my gas store never mentioned that.. $$$.

You might find a slight decrease in carbonation over time. I notice no discernible change over the course of 3 weeks or so.

That's awesome thanks Yuri!