The OFFICIAL 11-11-11 Old Ale Thread - The HBT Anniversary Series

[smokinghole]

I'm glad you posted that. I was wondering about a starter since brett grows slower than sacc. Maybe I can buy two packs for pitching if its not too late for my order.

Edit: Nevermind on checking my BMW invoice I accidentally ordered two anyhow. What a fortunate accident.

 

[AnOldUR]

Maybe I can buy two packs for pitching if its not too late . . .

Fortunate that you have the second pack on the way. With my 3763-PC Roeselare I only had one pack, so I split the batch and pitched the yeast onto 2-1/2 gals of wort in a 3 gallon carboy. Not a great shot, but here's where the brett growth is at 17 months in.

Looking forward to our next science experiment.

 

[jmo88]

AnOldUR, I understood that email as warning against a starter because of the lactic and pedio. I'm not sure a starter would be adverse for the Brett. It will take weeks to kick in and eat the leftovers from the sach anyway. At least that's my understanding.

 

[KingBrianI]

I made a 2 L starter 48 hrs prior to pitching. I guess since I got a bit of a head start on most of you I might be bale to provide some ide aon whether the Brett seems to be taking off by the time the rest of you are able to brew. I was planning on primarying for 1 month then racking to secondary. Do you think there might be a pellicle in the primary by then or is it too soon? I imagine a pellicle would form pretty quickly in secondary due to the O2 in there.

 

[camiller]

Here is what I think I am going to do. Brew two 12-gallon batches. Each batch will be split into three 4-gallon fermentors for a total of six separate batches:

Fermentor 1 - Wyeast 9097-PC
Fermentor 2 - Wyeast Brett-C only
Fermentor 3 - Wyeast 9097-PC + Wyeast Lactobacillus 5335 (Or maybe Roeselare Ale 3763 instead)
Fermentor 4 - Same as Fermentor1 + oak
Fermentor 5 - Same as Fermentor2 + oak
Fermentor 6 - Same as Fermentor3 + oak

What do you think? Have I got my bases covered?

 

[KingBrianI]

Holy...

 

[jmo88]

I made a 2 L starter 48 hrs prior to pitching. I guess since I got a bit of a head start on most of you I might be bale to provide some ide aon whether the Brett seems to be taking off by the time the rest of you are able to brew. I was planning on primarying for 1 month then racking to secondary. Do you think there might be a pellicle in the primary by then or is it too soon? I imagine a pellicle would form pretty quickly in secondary due to the O2 in there.

There is a thread from a year ago of several different brewers using this. There is some good info on what to expect over the course of several months. Based on the experience of others, I'd guess the pellicle will start after the transfer to the secondary and last several months.

 

[AnOldUR]

AnOldUR, I understood that email as warning against a starter because of the lactic and pedio. I'm not sure a starter would be adverse for the Brett. It will take weeks to kick in and eat the leftovers from the sach anyway. At least that's my understanding.

Anyone else have a comment on this? My knowledge of yeast is limited.

My take on the email was that the Saccharomyces will reproduce in the time frame of a starter, but all the other bugs will either not reproduce or do it at a slower rate. When you pitch this starter into your wort it will again go through a reproductive stage, but with the Saccharomyces at a higher ratio than what was intended.

There is a thread from a year ago of several different brewers using this. . .

This is the thread that got me to brew the Flanders Brown mentioned earlier. It's too bad there isn't follow up on these threads where (in Wyeasts words), "Aging for up to 18 months is required for full flavor profile and acidity to develop." I would love to hear how Jason's beer turned out.

 

[jmo88]

Anyone else have a comment on this? My knowledge of yeast is limited.

My take on the email was that the Saccharomyces will reproduce in the time frame of a starter, but all the other bugs will either not reproduce or do it at a slower rate. When you pitch this starter into your wort it will again go through a reproductive stage, but with the Saccharomyces at a higher ratio than what was intended.

Just to clarify my take on it, the difference I see in a pedio/lacto/brett/sach blend compared to the 9097 is that the 9097 should ferment in 2 phases (sach followed by a long brett). Brett doesn't need a big cell count at the end of sach fermentation to do its job. Therefore, a starter, increasing the sach cell count and not the brett, won't hurt the beer's profile . The sour blend would need to have the proper ratio of all the bugs to get the desired profile as the fermentation would have several phases overlapping. I'm sticking my neck out a bit on this one since I don't have much experience in this department, just research.

 

[mojotele]

Ahh, so that's the reason for the long secondary - to let the Brett do its thing. Like I said, this is my first bugged beer. I'm already learning!

 

[camiller]

Just doing a little math and I don't think my mash tun will be big enough to do a 12 gallon batch. Don't think I can do three 8-gallon batches in one day.... Maybe instead of 35.5 Lbs of pale I'll swap out 8 lbs of pale for 6.6 Lbs of extra light LME. That would give me 32-ish Lbs with the specialty grains in the mash tun which is right at my limit unless I mash thick... Going to have to play with the numbers some more.

 

[AnOldUR]

I'm sticking my neck out a bit on this one . . .

Don't think anyone will be chopping you head off. That makes a lot of sense. I wasn’t aware of the pedio/lacto/brett/sacc blend in the 3763-PC as compared to just brett and sacc in the 9097-PC. Thanks for the information.

 

[mojotele]

For the secondary brett fermentation, should you use a 5 gallon carboy for a 5 gallon batch or should you/could you use a larger 6-6.5 gallon fermenter? I figure the brett will be producing CO2, so using a larger fermenter shouldn't be a big deal.

If so, I could do the primary and oaking in my 6.5 gallon bucket then transfer to my 6.5 gallon carboy and let the brett do its thing. Then I can use my 5 gallon carboy for the lager I have going now.

 

[KingBrianI]

For the secondary brett fermentation, should you use a 5 gallon carboy for a 5 gallon batch or should you/could you use a larger 6-6.5 gallon fermenter? I figure the brett will be producing CO2, so using a larger fermenter shouldn't be a big deal.

If so, I could do the primary and oaking in my 6.5 gallon bucket then transfer to my 6.5 gallon carboy and let the brett do its thing. Then I can use my 5 gallon carboy for the lager I have going now.

My experience with brett is a bit lacking but the way I understand it, Brett needs a little O2 to produce its distinctive flavors. That's why people wil put oak dowels through the stopper hole to allow some exchange of air.

 

[AlphaWolf-Brewery]

KingBrian beings you have brewed this recipe all ready maybe you can help me. Did you just add an additional 2G of sparge water to make up for the boiling down of the first 2 gallons? Or did you just top off your fermenter with added water?

 

[AnOldUR]

AnOldUR, I understood that email as warning against a starter because of the lactic and pedio. I'm not sure a starter would be adverse for the Brett . . .

Sorry if I gave out bad information on using a starter with the 9097-PC.
Just heard back from Wyeast and like jmo88 said, this yeast is different from the 3763-PC blend.

Herman,

For this blend, I do not think it as much an issue. The Brett will probably not grow in the starter, as the Saccharomyces will take over, but there should still be enough Brett for long term secondary aging. It may just take a month or two longer.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories
(541) 354-1335

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

Quick question, I've never attempted a sour beer and do not intend on attempting it on this one. I plan to use Wyeast 1318 London ale III. Would it be okay to make a starter for this? I assume the talk of no starters is for only thise that making a sour. Also, would I still want to leave it in secondary for 6-8 months? AND, since I've never sat on a beer for anywhere close to this length of time, will I need to add yeast at bottling?

 

[KingBrianI]

KingBrian beings you have brewed this recipe all ready maybe you can help me. Did you just add an additional 2G of sparge water to make up for the boiling down of the first 2 gallons? Or did you just top off your fermenter with added water?

I added 2 gallons of water to the runnings and boiled that with the wort. I didn't want to oversparge and extract tannins so I did it that way. I feel safer boiling the extra water with the wort than adding it to the cooled wort in the fermenter.

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

I added 2 gallons of water to the runnings and boiled that with the wort. I didn't want to oversparge and extract tannins so I did it that way. I feel safer boiling the extra water with the wort than adding it to the cooled wort in the fermenter.

So you only took ~7 gallons of runnings total and added 2 gallons of water to the boil? I wonder what the impact would be of just running off the extra 2 gallons from the sparge, were you measurably close to over sparging and extracting tannins or were you just playing it safe?

 

[jmo88]

Sorry if I gave out bad information on using a starter with the 9097-PC.
Just heard back from Wyeast and like jmo88 said, this yeast is different from the 3763-PC blend.

No worries at all. Thanks for emailing them.

Quick question, I've never attempted a sour beer and do not intend on attempting it on this one. I plan to use Wyeast 1318 London ale III. Would it be okay to make a starter for this? I assume the talk of no starters is for only thise that making a sour. Also, would I still want to leave it in secondary for 6-8 months? AND, since I've never sat on a beer for anywhere close to this length of time, will I need to add yeast at bottling?

This isn't a sour beer. A tartness might develop overtime due to the brett, but it will be nothing like typical sour ales like lambics and geuze. Make a starter with any strain you choose. I'd leave it in the secondary to bulk age for a few months if you're not using brett, especially if you want to age on oak. Also, it wouldn't hurt to add a little neutral yeast like US05 at bottling. For those using the 9097, I don't think we'll have a problem bottling carbing them.

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

I'm a little confused. Where does the Brett come in? I thought that's what made it a sour beer. Is the Brett in the 9097? If I'm not using the 9097, then this is something I don't have to worry about, right? See, the reason I've never made a sour beer is becuase I don't understand them

 

[KingBrianI]

So you only took ~7 gallons of runnings total and added 2 gallons of water to the boil? I wonder what the impact would be of just running off the extra 2 gallons from the sparge, were you measurably close to over sparging and extracting tannins or were you just playing it safe?

I batch sparge so it wasn't a matter of just running off more. I only add the amount of sparge water I want and run it all off. I hav eextremely high boil-off rates on the order of 23-25%/hr so I usually start my boils a little over 8 gallons. This one started at 8.5 gallons and boiled down to around 5.75 over the 90 minute boil. Since everyone's system is different, we can't really say "start the boil with 7 gallons" or whatever since that obviously wouldn't have worked for me. And just because I started with 8.5 gallons doesn't mean everyone should do that. You really just have to adjust the recipe to your system.

In the past I always double batch sparged and I believe it was causing me to get some tannins in my beer. At that time I was getting 85-90% efficiency. My current process for all my beers (not just the 11.11.11) is to single batch sparge with just a little more water that what I used to mash with. The rest of the water I need to hit my preboil voume is heated up with the sparge water, and added straight to the first runnings. For the 11.11.11, I just used 2 more gallons than usual at that point. Since I only boiled the 2 gallons of first runnings to about half a gallon, my preboil volume ended up around 8.5 gallons instead of ~8.25 like normal and I increased my flame during the boil to get it down to where I wanted it.

But don't base your procedure off mine if it won't work for you. Brewing is all about adjusting your system to best fit your needs.

TMI?

 

[KingBrianI]

I'm a little confused. Where does the Brett come in? I thought that's what made it a sour beer. Is the Brett in the 9097? If I'm not using the 9097, then this is something I don't have to worry about, right? See, the reason I've never made a sour beer is becuase I don't understand them

9097 is a mixture of a saccharomyces and a brettanomyces strain.

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

Got it. Thanks KingBrian.

 

[jmo88]

Jason, give Orval and Ommegeddon a try to see what brett can do to a beer. You'll have to imagine the character in an old ale, if you can, because these styles are very different from the one we're brewing. I've never seen a commercial example of a brett olde ale.

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

I'll give em a try. I've never had an Old Ale though so my imagination will be working overtime! ha

 

[jmo88]

I'll give em a try. I've never had an Old Ale though so my imagination will be working overtime! ha

Hah, just don't mix Orval and Old Peculiar. Or maybe...

 

[AnOldUR]

Damn! My yeast is back ordered.

 

[camiller]

Jason, give Orval and Ommegeddon a try to see what brett can do to a beer. You'll have to imagine the character in an old ale, if you can, because these styles are very different from the one we're brewing. I've never seen a commercial example of a brett olde ale.

I wonder if the Odell Saboteur 'Brett Barrel Brown Ale' would be a closer example? Looks like I'll get to try it Saturday at any rate since I'm going to The Bricktop in Lincoln NE for the Mikkeller Yeast Series event and they have the Odell on tap currently (according to their website).

 

[SCARYLARRY]

I brewing this beer Sunday. My 9097 will be here tomorrow. This will be the first time for a starter, so should I do the starter Friday night or Saturday morning?