Help on a Red Velvet Porter

Hey guys, looking for a bit of advice on a Red Velvet Porter. I think JayLove must've been the guy sitting next to me at the bar in the dream I had about this one... and DiCaprio was the bartender... interesting... HisImperial Red Velvet Ale is a definite base and jumping off point for this one.
I'm definitely limited in my recipe altering experience, and just looking at it, I'm seeing a lot more steeping grain than most other recipes, but the SRM, IBU, and ABV come out about where I'm looking for based on the recipe run through BrewAlchemy (nothing else out there for a Mac, really?). And I realize that some of the stuff, like the Biscuit, doesn't do much in a steep, but I'm looking for more flavor and coloring from it than sugars, so I'm hoping it'll work.
Suggestions, advice, and constructive beratings are appreciated, (and soon bc the LHBS doesn't carry the yeasts I've seen recommended).

(Aw crap, how do I format the tables so they're readable?)

Here's what I'm looking for:
-Flavor: Reminiscent of a Red Velvet Cake, ie. Chocolate cake with vanilla, not sure I can get the cream cheese flavor in there, but hoping for a little bit of butter from the biscuit malt (or is that not the flavor profile derived there?). Definitely trying to mold it somewhere between a Sweet and a Robust Porter.
-Mouthfeel: Something between a Guinness and a Young's Double Chocolate, though not quite as milkshakey as the Young's.
-Coloring: Trying to use the grains to get toward the darker end of things, but not so dark as to hide the red coloring that I'm looking to get out of the beets. Something along the lines of a Newcastle is where I'm hoping to be with the grains alone.


Here's what I'm looking at:
I have 5 x 1gl carboys that I'm planning on making this in so that I can experiment with variations in vanilla, chocolate, etc. May even try different yeasts in each. Can only boil maybe 3gl at a time (working out of a hotel room while my ship is sitting here in port). Suggestions appreciated.

Recipe Overview
Wort Volume Before Boil: 3.00 US gals
Wort Volume After Boil: 2.70 US gals
Volume Transferred: 2.70 US gals
Water Added To Fermenter: 1.50 US gals
Volume At Pitching: 4.20 US gals
Volume Of Finished Beer: 3.50 US gals
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.005 SG
Expected OG: 1.049 SG
Expected FG: 1.013 SG
Apparent Attenuation: 72.2 %
Expected ABV: 4.8 %
Expected ABW: 3.7 %
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 11.9 IBU
Expected Color (using Morey): 13.1 SRM
BU:GU ratio: 0.24 Approx Color:
Mash Efficiency: 20.0 % (set this way because BrewAlchemy seems to lump Steeping and Mashing efficiencies as one in the same when calculating gravity)
Boil Duration: 60.0 mins
Fermentation Temperature: 66 degF


Fermentables
Ingredient Amount % MCU When
US Carapils Malt 12.00 oz 10.3 % 0.2 Steeped
German CaraRed 6.00 oz 5.2 % 1.5 Steeped
UK Brown Malt 6.00 oz 5.2 % 5.1 Steeped
Sugar Beet 4.00 oz 3.4 % 1.1 Steeped
Belgian Biscuit Malt 2.00 oz 1.7 % 0.7 Steeped
US Chocolate Malt 2.00 oz 1.7 % 10.4 Steeped
Golden Light LME 5lb 0oz 69.0 % 4.8 Start Of Boil
Lactose 4.00 oz 3.4 % 0.0 End Of Boil


Hops
Variety Alpha Amount IBU Form When
US Willamette 4.5 % 0.50 oz 7.0 Pellet 40 Min From End
US Willamette 4.5 % 0.50 oz 4.8 Pellet 20 Min From End


Other Ingredients
Ingredient Amount When
Cocoa Powder 8.00 oz In Boil
Whirlfloc Tablet 1.00 oz In Boil
Vanilla Beans 1.00 oz In Secondary
Creme de Cacao 2.00 oz At bottling, to taste
Vanilla Extract 0.50 oz At bottling, to taste

Yeast
Danstar-Nottingham
or
White Labs WLP004 Irish Ale

Mash Schedule
Mash Type: Extract with Steeped Grains
Schedule Name: Steeped (165F)

Recipe Notes
Adding skinned, sliced beet to wort after steeping grains are out and as I'm heating to boil. Will start w/ half a beet, but will see as it goes how the color pans out. May also try various tinctures/experiments to extract beet coloring for later addition while everything else is bubbling away.

Plan to add 1 vanilla bean (gutted and chopped) to the secondary after 7-10 days in primary.

Will add vanilla extract and creme de cacao to taste at bottling.

There is a large variety of grains, but the total % is still acceptable. For steeping grains, you want to have them all have their sugars present and not require a mash. Now there has been a little research (I've seen Austin HB advocate it and sell as well) in the field of adding some basic 2 row to a steep. You obviously are not mashing it, but you will get something out of adding a small amount to your little bag. Look around I'm sure you will find some info (and more reading is always better than less - learn!)

Flavor-wise, there is a lot going on in that recipe. I did not go through any reviews, but that is a complicated batch! You might be just fine taking what he has there and running with it. Since you are planning to do a porter, which should be much darker (You say the SRM is on par... are you sure?), you might consider using Light or Amber DME and perhaps switch the amounts of roasted barley and chocolate malt.
As far as the yeast, its asking for a London Ale strain. You can probably safely interchange any english ale strain that your LHBS might have.

Good points, and I'm thinking the beets may need a little something to convert whatever starches are in there too, but the CaraPils is 120% diastatic, so I was hoping that would be enough to cover both. And I'm trying to go light on the coloring so that the red really shows when the beet dye is added. If I go too dark, well, you just wont be able to tell, right?

I'm new at this, but here's some rationale for most of it:
-CaraPils: sweet, adds body and creaminess
-Biscuit: hoping for a slightly cake batter thing coming through, not sure if that translates in actuality the way it does in my head though
-CaraRed: Mostly just driving the color in the right direction
-Chocolate Malt: not using much bc I'm looking for a lighter color, and would rather go chocolatey (like Brown Malt) rather than coffee on the flavor profile

Am I way out of line?

gypsyhead,

I added a whole sliced beet at the end of my boil and the wort looked pretty dark brownish when the boil was complete - but after a week in primary the red color really came through, even with the chocolate malt and roasted barley. Basically, I don't think you'll need to worry much about trying to get the color from the grains or keeping the color too light (the beets have you covered), so if you want to ease back on the grain bill, you can probably lose the CaraRed. I finished at 18 SRM and think I could have gone darker.

Again, I caution using the raw beets in the boil - they added a lot of white (starch?) haze when I poured to primary, but it did drop after a week. Mostly, I'm concerned that they'll introduce that overpowering earthy flavor to the wort. I liked your other idea of boiling the beets, fermenting the juice then boiling off the alcohol and adding later to color as needed. A lot of work, but at least you'll know how the dye will taste before adding it and possibly ruining a batch of brew.

I like the idea of the biscuit & brown malt - curious to see what that adds.

Nice call on the vanilla bean in secondary and, I think, wise to wait for bottling to refine chocolate & vanilla flavors. Note on the vanilla extract, it's best to use pure alcohol-based extracts - not imitation. I'm betting you already knew that, though.

I'm seeing a couple of things that contribute a dryness - i.e. the brown malt and, if used, Irish yeast. Curious to see how that would play out. If I did my batch again, I'd stick with London III, but would be willing to sub with Notty or maybe the clean and balanced American Ale...

By the way, was that an "Inception" reference? Nice... Yeah, did DiCaprio introduce himself as Mr. Charles by any chance?...

Good luck, happy brewing and keep us posted.

___________________

Future Brews: 1) Tempest Kölsch 2) Spruce Budd Ale (Fort George Clone) 3) Jamil's Evil Twin 4) Simcoe Imperial IPA

Primary: 1) Magnifera Indica Belgae (Fort George Clone) 2) Basic Cider 3) A Brave New Cider

Bottled: 1) Winter Warmer (Harpoon Clone) 2) Thick Headed Milk Chocolate Stout 3) Caramel Vanilla Cream Ale 4) Back in Black IPA 5) It's the Great Pumpkin Ale, Charlie Brown 6) Imperial Red Velvet Ale

More research and found out the CaraPils info I had was precisely wrong, so added some Maris Otter to the base and... not even going to mention the other stuff I did to this recipe before I try it. Will post more when results show. Brewing in about a week. Wish me luck.

ps: Fermenting watermelon smells like a**, I'm wondering what fermented beet is going to smell like...

Maybe something like this is more what we're looking for, though I'm curious about the sugars from the beet fermenting, but like you say, I can't imagine the flavor being a great addition.

http://www.ehow.com/how_8588_extract-natural-dyes.html

Good luck!

Thanks! Read up on the sugars thing and looking at my equipment, etc. I think I'm able to do a partial mash, just trying to find a good schedule now, i get that high temp = less fermentable, more mouthfeel, but trying to figure out where this one out to fall in.

Well you seem to want it a little sweeter. If it were my beer and I were doing it the same way you are (if you are indeed going to partial mash and not just steep), I would shoot for 155F for my mash temp.

Hi gypsyhead,

Have you had a brew day? Anything to report? On the edge of my seat to see how things are going this brew.

Alright, ended up brewing this yesterday actually. I'm stationed away from home right now, brewing in a hotel room, so I figured I may as well spend Thanksgiving w/ 200billion of my hungry little friends, right?

Had some problems with the mash, but the boil and beet additions seemed to go fairly well.

Got a really high OG, around 1.080 (and was pretty sh** faced by this point, so I didn't write it down, just going from the memory of looking at it and seeing it in the green... 1.080 sounds about right), likely attributed to the cocoa in the mix (?).

Recipe Overview
Target Wort Volume Before Boil: 3.00 US gals
Actual Wort Volume Before Boil: 3.00 US gals
Target Wort Volume After Boil: 2.70 US gals
Actual Wort Volume After Boil: 2.70 US gals
Target Volume Transferred: 2.70 US gals
Actual Volume Transferred: 2.70 US gals
Target Volume At Pitching: 4.00 US gals
Actual Volume At Pitching: 4.00 US gals
Target Volume Of Finished Beer: 3.50 US gals
Actual Volume Of Finished Beer: 3.50 US gals
Target Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.006 SG
Actual Pre-Boil Gravity: -No Record-
Target OG: 1.054 SG
Actual OG: 1.081 SG
Target FG: 1.015 SG
Actual FG: -we'll see-
Target Apparent Attenuation:: 70.4 %
Actual Apparent Attenuation: ---
Target ABV: 5.1 %
Actual ABV: 8.9 %
Target ABW: 4.0 %
Actual ABW: 6.9 %
Target IBU (using Tinseth): 13.0 IBU
Actual IBU: 9.4 IBU
Target Color (using Morey): 20.5 SRM
Actual Color: 20.5 SRM
Actual Fermentation Temp: 69 degF


Fermentables
Ingredient Amount % MCU When
Crisp Marris Otter 1lb 0oz 11.9 % 1.0 In Mash
German CaraRed 6.00 oz 4.5 % 1.6 In Mash
UK Brown Malt 6.00 oz 4.5 % 5.3 In Mash
US Carapils Malt 4.00 oz 3.0 % 0.1 In Mash
US Caramel 80L Malt 4.00 oz 3.0 % 5.0 In Mash
Belgian Biscuit Malt 4.00 oz 3.0 % 1.4 In Mash
Belgian Special B 4.00 oz 3.0 % 9.2 In Mash
US Chocolate Malt 2.00 oz 1.5 % 10.9 In Mash
Extract - Munich Malt 5lb 0oz 59.7 % 10.0 Added w/ 20 min left in boil
Sugar Beet 4.00 oz 3.0 % 1.1 Added to primaries (see notes below)
Sugar - Lactose 4.00 oz 3.0 % 0.0 Will add at bottling

Hops
Variety Alpha Amount IBU Form When
US Willamette 4.8 % 0.50 oz 7.7 Bagged Pellet Hops 40 Min From End
US Willamette 4.8 % 0.50 oz 5.3 Bagged Pellet Hops 20 Min From End

Other Ingredients
Ingredient Amount When
Cocoa Powder 8.00 oz In Boil (15min left)
Whirlfloc Tablet 1.00 oz In Boil (15min left)
Creme de Cacao 2.00 oz Will add at bottling
Vanilla Extract 0.50 oz Will add at bottling

Yeast
Wyeast 1318-London Ale III

Mash Notes
Mashed in all the grains at 157F w/ 1gl plus 2 cups of water... in my boil pot, so it didn't quite keep the heat like I thought it would, despite constant heating. After about 10min it had dropped to about 143F, so I put on the heat and got it back up to 157F in about 5 min.
Damn, now it got too hot too quick, hopefully I caught it before I killed off all the little buggers, f*** I need a real mash tun, a better thermometer, or to stay more sober/less distracted while brewing. [Edit: Seriously doubting the accuracy and responsiveness of my thermometer, temperatures kept rising when tun was off the heat, cooling when it was on it...unless the differences in heat between the top and bottom of a 3" mash bed are really that great even after stirring.]

Note: despite original suppositions, no beets in the mash, see below notes for more info.

Boil Notes
So... actual, the boil went pretty well. Hops went in at the right time. Added the extract at 20min left with the 2nd addition, and finished on time... so, actually, it may work well.


Fermentation Notes
Split the batch into 5 x 1gl carboys, w/ the remaining beet extract in a 1qt bottle with an airlock
A: 15oz of Pom added
B: 1.5 cups boiled beet juice added + 1.5 cups mixed beet juice
C: 1.5cups pure beet juice added + 1.5 cups mixed beet juice
D: Will add fermented beet after initial fermentation
E: Control
Z: Half/half mix of beet juice, and boiled beet water, added koji-kai (fungi used to convert starches for sake making) to pure beet juice + boiled water runnings, and added champagne yeast [all i had, and don't necessarily want any flavor here, so dry is better], no idea how this will work out, but... f*** it (in moderation, otherwise it may chafe)

Hi Gypsyhead,

I had a birthday the other day and my wife decided to make me a red velvet cake using beets for the food coloring per the instructions available online on how to do so that we've been reviewing. She had the peeled cut-up beets steeping in hot water for several hours and you could smell the earthy beetiness throughout the house - when I tasted the red beet broth, it reminded me of the failed red velvet beer I made. The earthy, slightly spicy flavor came through in a big way. In a cake you can't really taste it (the cake was great, by the way) but in a beer, those flavors are very overpowering.

I actually tried one of my red velvet beers today and I think it's fair to say that the beet flavor is a surprisingly tough competitor.

I hope your brews turn out well - keep us posted. If your attempts surpass the beet funk - AWESOME! But, if not, we may be stuck with using food coloring. Eh. I think flavor is the most important thing anyway.

On a side note - I brought some <i>red velvets</i> into work for a holiday party and most mistook the beet flavor for hoppy flavors. They thought it was an over-hoppped chocolate-flavored beer, which I thought was strange. Anyway, it turned out to be a big hit but I was just trying to get rid of it... to each his own...

Good luck, fellow experimental brewer!
___________________

Future Brews: - Working on it
Secondary: Magnifera Indica Belgae (Fort George Clone)
Bottled: Basic Cider, A Brave New Cider, Winter Warmer (Harpoon Clone), Thick Headed Milk Chocolate Stout, Caramel Vanilla Cream Ale, Back in Black IPA, It's the Great Pumpkin Ale, Charlie Brown, Imperial Red Velvet Ale

oh no! definitely a layer of mold on top of the "fermenting" beet juice/dye mix. it's definitely mold, greenish-gray and crusty, like you'd find on top of something you... left sitting for 2 weeks. The container was too small/oddly shaped to really try to get the liquid out from under the mold and above the trub, and it's a shame because i risked a little taste of what I was able to pour off, and i don't know that it really fermented (again it was a tiny sip), but there was definitely not a noticeable beet taste, but plenty of color. I think this would be the way to go for the dye, but my airlock didn't fit so well, so I don't know if air got in, if it did actually ferment, etc. Would definitely be worth another try. So, 2 control groups now, we'll see how it goes in a week or so at bottling.

Packaging notes:
RV1: Combination of groups D & E w/ 1/2tsp vanilla extract
RV1.5: Same as above, but added appx 1/2tsp red food coloring
RV2: Bottle A w/ 1/4tsp vanilla
RV3: Bottle B w/ 1/4tsp vanilla
RV4: Bottle C w/ 1/4tsp vanilla

so first tasting notes: tried the first bottle of the control group (RV1) yesterday, after only about 4 days of conditioning (a bit premature I know, but was at a family gathering and couldn't resist), flavor notes are great, fairly rich chocolate porter the way I was planning, but not quite as much body as I was hoping for. we'll see what comes in the next week or so, still haven't tried the beet or pom versions, waiting for them to definitely condition a little better due to the limited number of bottles I actually have.

Alright final verdict: pretty damn good, but overall, could've used a little more pronounced cocoa and body...
-RV1: Best of the batch (because the rest were essentially this group w/ additives). Could stand to have a bit more body and a more pronounced chocolate flavor, and I could've bumped up the vanilla a little as well
-Group A/RV2: Pom (naturally) came out a little sour according to SWMBO, but I thought it wasn't bad, definitely added a light fruitiness to the mix, but yeah, slightly tart, though it did taste like the pom had fermented at least slightly
-Group B/RV3: No residual flavor from the beets! seems like the dye extraction method worked pretty well in this case, but in the future, I may do this first, then use some in the mash, bc the beet additives definitely thinned out the chocolate and malt. so in the future I would definitely run w/ this beet method for coloring, but would bump up the malt and cocoa quite a bit to compensate
-RV4: still to taste

never mind, this stuff is hardly drinkable, rework the recipe and start something new. I can't describe what it is, but I could only drink a few sips at a time without being absolutely repelled. good luck fellas

Huh... getting mixed messages here, gypsyhead. Did the earthy beet nastiness set in? It sounds to me like the very concept of how to approach a red velvet cake inspired beer needs to be re-examined. I'd like a little more input on your experience with beets as a coloring agent, though, and if maybe oat flakes might be a good way to achieve the proper body and mouthfeel...

However, if I ever attempt this again, I'm thinking of going a basic chocolate cream stout with some roasted barley and maybe flaked oats in the mash (cocoa nibs, some lactose and a touch of vanilla)...? Fogetting the beets and just leaving it to red food dye for coloring.

Right now I have a very delicious sweet milk stout that's about ready to be kegged - it would make a nice base for red velvet cake flavors.

it wasn't the beet or coloring additions that made it bad, because even the control group turned out weird. I cant quite describe what it is, but there's something about the beer that almost invokes a gag reflex. The flavor isn't horrible, the texture is pretty decent, but I almost want to say the beer has kind of a buttery, slick feel to it that just kinda coats the tongue. For the first 2 weeks after bottling, the stuff was great, but I cant have more than a sip from any bottle now.

Best of luck.