YOS and Ph drop

[Noob_Brewer]

With the yeast oxygen scavenging method, I have seen in some graphs that pH drops a bit but can't seem to find this right now. Is there a general rule of thumb in how much pH would drop after using YOS @ 2g/gal for 30minutes? I can generally nail my mash pH right off the bat with lactic acid additions but not sure how this will be impacted by YOS method first ie getting lower than anticipated mash pH. EDIT: water temp during YOS treatment is ~100F

 

[CascadesBrewer]

YOS is not my area of expertise, but my guess is that this step might impact the pH of the brewing water but would have very little impact on the pH of the mash. The pH of low mineral content water (especially RO/Distilled) can swing easily since there is very little buffering power.

 

[Red over White]

The water pH will drop, but doesn't affect my mash pH, it still needs adjustment from other means. The overnight YOS method at half the dose described above apparently is the way to go for premium results and longer protection, deeper into hotside work.

I reduce my SMB dose, if I use the overnight method to reduce bleaching of the wort. My mashtun has extremely short external hose runs of EJ beverage high temp tubing, which isn't highly permeable to oxygen like silicone and I account for it accordingly.

 

[daveMN]

I think you meant doing YOS adding SMB to reduce "darkening" of the wort, right? The darkening is a result (one of the results) of oxidation, like a cut apple exposed to the air.

To the OP's question, the pH drop would depend on the water you are starting with, and what minerals you're adding to it. Figure a tenth or two. You could get/use a pH meter and start to capture some data on your brews and see what variables affect your mash pH, or to discover new rabbit holes.

 

[Red over White]

I think you meant doing YOS adding SMB to reduce "darkening" of the wort, right? The darkening is a result (one of the results) of oxidation, like a cut apple exposed to the air.

Hey Dave, SMB will have a bleaching affect on the wort. Joe Hertrich talks about how macros use this method when using different lines of barley for color uniformity in their products. Cheers

 

[daveMN]

Hey Dave, SMB will have a bleaching affect on the wort. Joe Hertrich talks about how macros use this method when using different lines of barley for color uniformity in their products. Cheers

I'll go back and give that one a re-listen.

 

[Red over White]

Episode 051 starting around the 12:00 mark

 

[daveMN]

Episode 051 starting around the 12:00 mark

Well, I listened to it, and Joe said "back then" as many times as he mentioned SMB. Sounds like an old practice, where the outcome may be paler wort but I would still interpret that as retarding wort darkening instead of bleaching. That would also be more in line with the understanding of SMB's action from that other forum you and I frequent.

 

[Red over White]

Well, I listened to it, and Joe said "back then" as many times as he mentioned SMB. Sounds like an old practice, where the outcome may be paler wort but I would still interpret that as retarding wort darkening instead of bleaching. That would also be more in line with the understanding of SMB's action from that other forum you and I frequent.

Hey Dave, It does have multiple outcomes for the singular purpose we use it at, at our elevated temperatures. You can easily test this for yourself with a split batch of dme starter wort on the stove. I'm fairly certain Joe forgot more technical information about malt and wort production than the two of us combined will ever know. Cheers

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Thanks for the replies all! In the end ya'll were right. Despite the pH drop of the water, the grist obviously has the bigger impact. Still hit my mash pH after using the YOS. Targeted 5.35 and actual mash pH was 5.39 (measured at room temps) at my 20 minute mash mark.

Hey @Red over White Ive read lots of people stating their LODO beers coming out lighter in color...is the "bleaching" you are referring to responsible? Like @daveMN mentioned, I just always thought that the paler color was due to a lack of oxidation of the wort. Haven't really looked into it myself though. Other than color, does the bleaching have any other adverse effects?

 

[Red over White]

Thanks for the replies all! In the end ya'll were right. Despite the pH drop of the water, the grist obviously has the bigger impact. Still hit my mash pH after using the YOS. Targeted 5.35 and actual mash pH was 5.39 (measured at room temps) at my 20 minute mash mark.

Hey @Red over White Ive read lots of people stating their LODO beers coming out lighter in color...is the "bleaching" you are referring to responsible? Like @daveMN mentioned, I just always thought that the paler color was due to a lack of oxidation of the wort. Haven't really looked into it myself though. Other than color, does the bleaching have any other adverse effects?

I am going to say that LODO brewed beers do come out lighter for both lack of oxidation and the affect of KMB or SMB on the hotside.

 

[Red over White]

I want to add separately from the above conversation that I have been using SMB to bleach cotton for 30 years in my professional life. I am very aware of how it works and what accelerates it's actions.

Edit: apparently using bleaching agent exactly like Joe used it isn't proper terminology. Lightening of natural products might be better terminology

 

[daveMN]

Thanks for the replies all! In the end ya'll were right. Despite the pH drop of the water, the grist obviously has the bigger impact. Still hit my mash pH after using the YOS. Targeted 5.35 and actual mash pH was 5.39 (measured at room temps) at my 20 minute mash mark.

Hey @Red over White Ive read lots of people stating their LODO beers coming out lighter in color...is the "bleaching" you are referring to responsible? Like @daveMN mentioned, I just always thought that the paler color was due to a lack of oxidation of the wort. Haven't really looked into it myself though. Other than color, does the bleaching have any other adverse effects?

Go with lack of oxidation causing less oxidative browning, resulting in paler wort. SMB is an oxygen scavenger that is being used to mitigate wort darkening.

 

[daveMN]

I want to add separately from the above conversation that I have been using SMB to bleach cotton for 30 years in my professional life. I am very aware of how it works and what accelerates it's actions.

Edit: apparently using bleaching agent exactly like Joe used it isn't proper terminology. Lightening of natural products might be better terminology

Isn't SMB used as an antichlor in textiles and pulp? That's generally how homebrewers use it in Camden tablets, right? When I worked in flour mills for over 15 years, we used a strong oxidizer likely benzoyl peroxide for whitening flour. Either way, I think we're getting closer.

 

[Red over White]

Isn't SMB used as an antichlor in textiles and pulp? That's generally how homebrewers use it in Camden tablets, right? When I worked in flour mills for over 15 years, we used a strong oxidizer likely benzoyl peroxide for whitening flour. Either way, I think we're getting closer.

Honestly, if it's in the "process" it's a bleaching agent as Joe describes it. I'm not going argue his credibility in the industry.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Honestly, if it's in the "process" it's a bleaching agent as Joe describes it. I'm not going argue his credibility in the industry.

Although its a bit OT for my initial question, I've enjoyed your and @daveMN chat about the effect of SMB/KMB on the wort. Can you please provide a link to this Joe Hertrick episode so that I can be part of the convo myself? I'd like to listen/watch myself. Thanks again for both of your contributions to the thread.

 

[Red over White]

Although its a bit OT for my initial question, I've enjoyed your and @daveMN chat about the effect of SMB/KMB on the wort. Can you please provide a link to this Joe Hertrick episode so that I can be part of the convo myself? I'd like to listen/watch myself. Thanks again for both of your contributions to the thread.

Absolutely my friend, here you go.

https://www.masterbrewerspodcast.com/051

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Absolutely my friend, here you go.

https://www.masterbrewerspodcast.com/051

Thank you! Yet another rabbit hole has begun!

 

[Red over White]

Thank you! Yet another rabbit hole has begun!

Listen to every episode he is in, he has a lot to say that's worth hearing.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Listen to every episode he is in, he has a lot to say that's worth hearing.

The 3 part series "The Six-rowification of North American Two-row" was one of the more eye opening podcasts I have ever listened to. It makes me think we need to treat NA and European barley as two separate grains. I will have to give the "Let Your Process Evaluate Your Malt" ones a listen.

Link for all Joe Hertrich episodes:
https://www.masterbrewerspodcast.com/guests/joe-hertrich

 

[Red over White]

The 3 part series "The Six-rowification of North American Two-row" was one of the more eye opening podcasts I have ever listened to. It makes me think we need to treat NA and European barley as two separate grains. I will have to give the "Let Your Process Evaluate Your Malt" ones a listen.

Link for all Joe Hertrich episodes:
https://www.masterbrewerspodcast.com/guests/joe-hertrich

You will enjoy his practical approach on let your process evaluate your malt.