yeast starters as generations

[FenoMeno]

If I am using one WLP vial to build up to a 6000 ml starter for my lager, do I count each "build up" as a generation in the same way I would after using in the actual beer?

If so, should I still consider about five generations about the max before I dump and buy more? (my starters are around 1.040)

Also, does the amount of generations differ from ales and lagers?

 

[afr0byte]

If I am using one WLP vial to build up to a 6000 ml starter for my lager, do I count each "build up" as a generation in the same way I would after using in the actual beer?

If so, should I still consider about five generations about the max before I dump and buy more? (my starters are around 1.040)

Also, does the amount of generations differ from ales and lagers?

What do you mean by build up to a 6000ml starter? If you're basing your starter size on Mr Malty, and he says you need a 6L starter, you can just make a 6L starter. You don't need to build up to it.

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

I count generations as in fermentation generations, not step up generations. Five generations is fine if you can keep them clean that long... I find most of my yeasts tend to poop out around 3-4 generations, mostly because I up the gravity on each batch. Ale and lager generations would not matter if you crop while the yeast is still active/viable and use it relatively quickly. If you are cropping lager yeast at the end of a long fermentation it may or may not be as viable as a shorter fermented ale yeast, you would need a microscope to tell for sure.

 

[Phunhog]

What do you mean by build up to a 6000ml starter? If you're basing your starter size on Mr Malty, and he says you need a 6L starter, you can just make a 6L starter. You don't need to build up to it.

Actually if you are only using one vial of yeast you do have to step up your starter. If you want to do a straight 6L starter than you need to have roughly 3 vials of yeast to start with.

 

[afr0byte]

Actually if you are only using one vial of yeast you do have to step up your starter. If you want to do a straight 6L starter than you need to have roughly 3 vials of yeast to start with.

Based one what reasoning? If you step it up by doing, say, 2 liters and then adding that to 4 liters, for a total of 6L, you'll have more cells than a 6 liter starter with 1 vial (and more than the recommended Mr Malty amount is calculating using 1 vial in 6L).

 

[Phunhog]

You're right....I had my settings on using smaller starters. You can make a 6L starter with one vial of yeast. I guess you would have to use a small carboy though. The biggest flask I have ever seen is 5L.

 

[afr0byte]

You're right....I had my settings on using smaller starters. You can make a 6L starter with one vial of yeast. I guess you would have to use a small carboy though. The biggest flask I have ever seen is 5L.

I'm sure the yeast's viability will be better with a couple vials in, say, a 3L starter. So, he's probably better off going that way.

 

[kingwood-kid]

You don't need to dump your yeast until it starts doing things you don't like. It might drift over time so that its fermentation characteristics (attenuation, flavor, etc...) are significantly different from what you started off with, but you may like what it evolves into. That's how we got all these different strains of one species of yeast

 

[jbsg02]

Obligated post.

 

[FenoMeno]

LOL!! I love the pic!

Yes, that was going to be my response, but a pic says more than words. I don't have a 6L Erlenmeyer. I do have 3 2000ml ones however.

I was using a formula from the book Yeast to build up and approximate the cell count that way.
Sounds like if I don't stress the yeast out (and vigilant sanitisation) , I don't need to count 'step ups' as a generation.... ...or simply don't worry about "counting", and watch the apparent viability/behavior of the yeast?? sound good?

Also, should I stick with the 1.040, or start/end with different SG's?

 

[jbsg02]

I can't answer the generation question, but I would keep your OG around 1.040. do you have a stir plate to use?

 

[FenoMeno]

Yes, I use a stir plate on one of the flasks, and use an O2 stone for the others if needed. This is the first time I have made anything using multiple flasks, and I only have one stir plate. ( visually speaking, the flasks with the O2 seem to be doing just as well. I took a dry erase marker and drew a line on the flasks at the slurry line after I first pitch to look for differences )

I see a lot of literature suggesting 1.040, and some others suggesting lower 1.030-1.036. I was wondering if I should start lower and work up. I use a pressure cooker to make my wort, and the math in grams works out easy to make the 1040.

on an unrelated note...I just tried an Einbecker Schwarzbier for the first time. Wow, fantastic!