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Yeast starter with same wort to ferment

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fofusak

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I'll open saying I *hate* making starters.
I hate them because (until now) I try to do them 3 days before brew day. Ferment for 24-48 and crash for a day. Decant and pitch on brew day.

I also hate having to prep the wort with the DME, it is simple, but I hate it for some reason.

I could skip the starters, I did so at the beginning. But I do love the fact that I don't have to make that trip to my LHBS for yeast, because that's the only thing that I usually didn't have on hand. (This is because I overbuild to have 100 billion extra to store)

So the other day I thought, what if on brew day, I take some wort after boil, before hops out and cool it and make a starter out of it? At the end of the boil, I'd just need to cool it down, not even to pitch temps, put it in the fermenter and on to the fermentation chamber. Keep it there for ~24 hrs and pitch the starter the next day.

I tried very hard to find other people that did this, but so far I've only found a brief comment of somebody saying that they do it. They don't say how long they keep the wort, at what temps or what risks/downsides they've noticed.

So far, the worst I can think of is the risk of infection. But with decent cleaning and sanitizing, keeping the wort at pitch temps for 24 hrs doesn't sound like a big risk, does it?

What are your thoughts on it?

Thanks!
 

flars

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I don't find it a problem to have my yeast starter ready to pitch a few days or a few weeks before brew day. I would feel pretty lousy if my wort became infected before the yeast was ready to pitch. Freshly propagated yeast can be stored in the frig for a few weeks without any serious loss in viability.
 

Pkrd

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Another benefit is you won't be one of those horrible people who claim to be all grain brewers but actually use DME in their starters. I don't know how they live with the lie.
 
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fofusak

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Another benefit is you won't be one of those horrible people who claim to be all grain brewers but actually use DME in their starters. I don't know how they live with the lie.
Nah, I don't hate the DME for that. It's just... I don't know. I feel that I procrastinate making starters, and thus I miss many brewing days because i didn't make my starter.
 
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Nah, I don't hate the DME for that. It's just... I don't know. I feel that I procrastinate making starters, and thus I miss many brewing days because i didn't make my starter.
I think you just answered your own question.
Except for occasions when I get to brew unexpectedly and then use dry yeast I plan ahead for making starters prior to brewing. I usually make my starter 18-24 hours in advance. No need to decant. Just pitch the whole thing.
 
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fofusak

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What about adding campden to my wort on the fermenter? That would halt any wild yeast and would allow me to pitch in 24 hrs, right?

I know that for wines people use 1 tab per gal, I would need tp check the amount for wort.

What are your thoughts on that?
 

hottpeper13

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I can 1 qt starter wort mason jars in a pressure canner, 14 at a time. I use 1 (about 800L in flask) and pitch my overbuilt saved yeast 24 hrs before brew day. when done I save about 300L in a pint jar for the future. On brew day I take out 1 qt mason jar worth of wort after a 10 min boil, chill quickly. When at the same temp as the starter, pitch into flask. By the time your wort is done and chilled (I let mine settle for 4-6 hrs before racking to fermenter) the starter should be at high krausen and ready to pitch.
To not have to make any starter at all I would think you need to keep packages of yeast in the fridge and just pitch into the chilled wort from the 10 min boil.
 

RPh_Guy

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What about adding campden to my wort on the fermenter? That would halt any wild yeast and would allow me to pitch in 24 hrs, right?

I know that for wines people use 1 tab per gal, I would need tp check the amount for wort.

What are your thoughts on that?
Let's see... For a wort pH of 5.5 you need 6 tabs per gallon to exceed 50ppm free SO2, this puts you at a total SO2 around 400ppm, which I believe is over the legal limit for wine.
I'm using recommendations for wine SO2 adjustment (which may not be entirely accurate for wort), but I think probably close enough to say I wouldn't recommend it.

You could just pitch multiple yeast packages to achieve adequate cell counts instead of making starters if you hate it that much.
 
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fofusak

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I can 1 qt starter wort mason jars in a pressure canner, 14 at a time. I use 1 (about 800L in flask) and pitch my overbuilt saved yeast 24 hrs before brew day. when done I save about 300L in a pint jar for the future. On brew day I take out 1 qt mason jar worth of wort after a 10 min boil, chill quickly. When at the same temp as the starter, pitch into flask. By the time your wort is done and chilled (I let mine settle for 4-6 hrs before racking to fermenter) the starter should be at high krausen and ready to pitch.
To not have to make any starter at all I would think you need to keep packages of yeast in the fridge and just pitch into the chilled wort from the 10 min boil.
I guess it's not the starter itself that I hate. It's the boiling and cooling in advance. Although the canning is an excellent idea. That way you have readily available wort for starter! I will keep an eye for deals on big pressure pots to do it!

Thanks!
 
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fofusak

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Let's see... For a wort pH of 5.5 you need 6 tabs per gallon to exceed 50ppm free SO2, this puts you at a total SO2 around 400ppm, which I believe is over the legal limit for wine.
I'm using recommendations for wine SO2 adjustment (which may not be entirely accurate for wort), but I think probably close enough to say I wouldn't recommend it.

You could just pitch multiple yeast packages to achieve adequate cell counts instead of making starters if you hate it that much.
Wow I didn't do my homework on campden doses depending on pH.

Seems like canning will be the way to go for my laziness.

Thanks!
 
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fofusak

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I can 1 qt starter wort mason jars in a pressure canner, 14 at a time. I use 1 (about 800L in flask) and pitch my overbuilt saved yeast 24 hrs before brew day. when done I save about 300L in a pint jar for the future. On brew day I take out 1 qt mason jar worth of wort after a 10 min boil, chill quickly. When at the same temp as the starter, pitch into flask. By the time your wort is done and chilled (I let mine settle for 4-6 hrs before racking to fermenter) the starter should be at high krausen and ready to pitch.
To not have to make any starter at all I would think you need to keep packages of yeast in the fridge and just pitch into the chilled wort from the 10 min boil.
I was thinking about this, and it's going to be even better than I had anticipated! I wouldn't need to boil and cool. I'd just need to add DME to each jar and can it! It'll get sterile, and by the time I want it it'd be at air temperature.

Very very cool. The only downside (for me) is the big pressure pot investment.

Again, thanks man!
 
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fofusak

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I bought it. I couldn't hold it. Damn Amazon and its free 2 day shipping.

And for Pkrd that thought I was a grain purist: I bought 6 pounds of DME too. :yes:
Just messing with you :), although I did bought the 6# of DME for canning
 

SanPancho

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Well, Amazon takes returns so ill throw this out since you sound like i do.....

Put the dme in the jar, add just enough water to mix it up. Say 300ml in a 1l flask/jar etc. Nuke it for a few minutes to 170-180f.

Toss some ice cubes into the jar, swirl until melted. Top off with water to pitch temp.

Takes less than 5 minutes.

Ill do it friday while i eat breakfast, its ready to pitch Saturday. Or crash it and decant for sunday if youre a DME-snob.

Easier than canning. No special equipment. Goes great with cheerios.
 
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fofusak

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Well, Amazon takes returns so ill throw this out since you sound like i do.....

Put the dme in the jar, add just enough water to mix it up. Say 300ml in a 1l flask/jar etc. Nuke it for a few minutes to 170-180f.

Toss some ice cubes into the jar, swirl until melted. Top off with water to pitch temp.

Takes less than 5 minutes.

Ill do it friday while i eat breakfast, its ready to pitch Saturday. Or crash it and decant for sunday if youre a DME-snob.

Easier than canning. No special equipment. Goes great with cheerios.
Hmmmm it does sound indeed that we're similar there [emoji2]

It does sound like a solid plan. 165 shoukd kill most stuff. My only concern would be the ice cubes, though I guess I can freeze some bottled water.
 

RM-MN

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So the other day I thought, what if on brew day, I take some wort after boil, before hops out and cool it and make a starter out of it? At the end of the boil, I'd just need to cool it down, not even to pitch temps, put it in the fermenter and on to the fermentation chamber. Keep it there for ~24 hrs and pitch the starter the next day.
Why not just make a huge starter, like 5 gallons. Instead of waiting 24 hours just pitch the yeast into your well aerated wort and let it propagate there.
 

SanPancho

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Just depends on your water source. We have big city municipal supply, never had an issue. On a well, id be more concerned. But yeah, a gallon of spring/distilled water for your cubes is like a buck at the grocery store.
 

ccous

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It’s like we can’t admit to committing an act that is seen as faux pas. Maybe some are perfect and always make starters days in advance. There’s no way I can do that with my schedule. So I have done the practice the OP explains many times to no ill effect. There is nothing wrong with letting wort sit for under 24 hrs before pitching as long as everything is clean.
 

danielthemaniel

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I dont see anything wrong with letting the wort cool for a day with proper sanitation. It's not my preference but I have done it several times in a pinch with no ill effects. As far as using cooled wort for the starter in lieu of DME I think the sugar content would be far less and you would need to adjust for that but its feasible.
 

fourfarthing

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I'll open saying I *hate* making starters.
I hate them because (until now) I try to do them 3 days before brew day. Ferment for 24-48 and crash for a day. Decant and pitch on brew day.

I also hate having to prep the wort with the DME, it is simple, but I hate it for some reason.

I could skip the starters, I did so at the beginning. But I do love the fact that I don't have to make that trip to my LHBS for yeast, because that's the only thing that I usually didn't have on hand. (This is because I overbuild to have 100 billion extra to store)

So the other day I thought, what if on brew day, I take some wort after boil, before hops out and cool it and make a starter out of it? At the end of the boil, I'd just need to cool it down, not even to pitch temps, put it in the fermenter and on to the fermentation chamber. Keep it there for ~24 hrs and pitch the starter the next day.

I tried very hard to find other people that did this, but so far I've only found a brief comment of somebody saying that they do it. They don't say how long they keep the wort, at what temps or what risks/downsides they've noticed.

So far, the worst I can think of is the risk of infection. But with decent cleaning and sanitizing, keeping the wort at pitch temps for 24 hrs doesn't sound like a big risk, does it?

What are your thoughts on it?

Thanks!
This is exactly my technique if I am not overbuilding to bank the yeast.
 
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fofusak

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Why not just make a huge starter, like 5 gallons. Instead of waiting 24 hours just pitch the yeast into your well aerated wort and let it propagate there.
5 gallons of a starter with some good specialty malts and some good hops? :)
Let it ride until it hits FG... sounds good! Except when I harvest my yeast, I'll have no idea on how many cell yeasts I'll be collecting. That's why I do the starters and overbuild them. That way I always end up with a 100 billion (estimated) cells.
 
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fofusak

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Just depends on your water source. We have big city municipal supply, never had an issue. On a well, id be more concerned. But yeah, a gallon of spring/distilled water for your cubes is like a buck at the grocery store.
Oh I trust my water. I don't trust my faucet mouth very much. I trust it enough for drinking, but not for completing my unboiled starters. But yeah I bought those big packs of small bottles at Costco. I use those for re hydrating the yeast.
 
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fofusak

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Happy to report that I canned 7 qt jars with 205 g of DME so I just fill the rest of the volume with bottled water.

Starters were never easier!
 

jtratcliff

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The search term you want is "real wort starter"...
It's been discussed on here several times over the years.

It's what I do with my no-chill/overnight-chill process. I pull off a half gallon or so at around 30 minutes ... before I add any flavor or aroma hop additions. I quickly cool that during the rest of the boil and usually have my starter on the stir plate before flame out.

By the time I'm down to pitching temps using overnight/no-chill, the starter is usually at or near high krausen. And since it's nearly the exact same wort as the full batch, I don't have to decant anything. I just pitch the entire thing.
 
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