Yeast Starter Cell Count Question

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TaoBrewer

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Let's say I want to grow a yeast starter with >200 billion healthy yeast cells perfect for pitching into 5 gallons of perfectly prepared wort ...

So, let's assume I have 2 liters of starter wort prepared that is at the perfect OG for a starter and a stir plate to maximize conditions for the yeast to replicate rapidly.

The question is, what's the minimum number of healthy yeast cells I'd need to introduce to these 2 liters of starter wort to hit my 200 billion objective?

Will starting with 100 billion (a full smack pack) generate more cells than starting with 50 billion or 25 Billion if they have the same amount of starter wort to grow in?

I've looked at the calculators and I just don't understand how to figure this out.
 
# of cells pitched to the starter doesn't really matter. The difference in 50 vs 100 billion reaching maximum cell density is a matter of time not number of cells.

Pitch your smack pack to a 1L starter for ~200 billion cells.
 
The difference in 50 vs 100 billion reaching maximum cell density is a matter of time not number of cells.

Since you should be letting your starter go until it's done with the growth phase, it's more a matter of sugars available at the proper starting gravity than time. If you want to control the pitch count, you would normally do it with starter size, not initial cell count. Starting with an estimated starting cell count of 50-100 billion cells, I'd only use a 1.5 liter starter for your beer. That should give you a good margin for error on the plus side (using Braukaiser).
 
# of cells pitched to the starter doesn't really matter. The difference in 50 vs 100 billion reaching maximum cell density is a matter of time not number of cells.

Pitch your smack pack to a 1L starter for ~200 billion cells.

Sorry don't agree with you here. Cell growth is a function of innoculation rate as well, if it's too low growth is limited, and if it's too high growth is limited. Pitching between 25-100 million cells / ml of starter is what you want.

I like braukaisers growth formulas a lot better than mr. Malty, so I use the starter calculator at http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php. Maximum cell density is achieved at peak krausen, which is usually 8-12 hours after pitching. After that you're merely depleting the cells nutrient reserves as the cells ferment the wort and replicate in order to maintain the cell density, if you don't plan on harvesting yeast from your starters (I do) then letting it go for longer 24 hours is not recommended.
 
I just meant to say that the difference between 50 billion and 100 billion cells reaching maximum density is an amount of extra time spent in the growth phase.
 
Sorry don't agree with you here. Cell growth is a function of innoculation rate as well, if it's too low growth is limited, and if it's too high growth is limited. Pitching between 25-100 million cells / ml of starter is what you want.

I like braukaisers growth formulas a lot better than mr. Malty, so I use the starter calculator at http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php. Maximum cell density is achieved at peak krausen, which is usually 8-12 hours after pitching. After that you're merely depleting the cells nutrient reserves as the cells ferment the wort and replicate in order to maintain the cell density, if you don't plan on harvesting yeast from your starters (I do) then letting it go for longer 24 hours is not recommended.


I don't see how what I said differs.

[EDIT: I see what you mean. I wasn't discounting innoc rate, just speaking generally. It's unlikely the average person is pitching < 25 million p/ml or > 100 million p/ml]
 
# of cells pitched to the starter doesn't really matter. The difference in 50 vs 100 billion reaching maximum cell density is a matter of time not number of cells.

Pitch your smack pack to a 1L starter for ~200 billion cells.

Thanks!!! So, I could essentially "split" a smack pack between three different 2 liter wort starter jugs which would be roughly 33 billion cells into each one and I'd have, within 24 hours, 3 jars, capable of pitching three different 1060-70 OG 5 gallon bathces, right?
 
Can I ask where you get your info?

Most of it comes from the "Shaken, Not Stirred" starter method related posts from the AHA Forum. The main contrubutor, S. Cerevisiae, provided tons of information from scientific journals, brewing texts and his experiences slanting and plating his yeast culture collection since the mid 90s.

Pitching 50B cells in 1L of starter should yield ~200B cells. The difference, in time, between 50B cells and 100B cells reaching max density (~200B cells) is as follows:

# of Replication Periods (50B-->200B) = log(200/50)/log(2) = 2
Average Replication Period = 90 Minutes (1.5 hours)
Time to Achieve Saturation = 3 hours


# of Replication Periods (100B-->200B) = log(200/100)/log(2) = 1
Average Replication Period = 90 Minutes (1.5 hours)
Time to Achieve Saturation = 1.5 hours

So essentially once the pitched yeast exits the lag phase, the difference between 50B and 100B cells reaching saturation is ~90 minutes.
 
RPIScotty,
that's interesting. I haven't read what you're talking about, but I did read; Yeast by Chris White and they had some different numbers. They pretty much said making a 1 L starter is not useful for increasing cell count, but you could do it to increase the health of the cells you have, if the package is a little old or something.
I'm not a yeast chemist, so I don't know. It's interesting though.
 
Yeast by Chris White and they had some different numbers. They pretty much said making a 1 L starter is not useful for increasing cell count, but you could do it to increase the health of the cells you have, if the package is a little old or something.
I believe those tests were done with no added oxygen and no agitation.
 
http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

I'll just leave this here.

The innoculation rate does matter to an extent, but the amount of available sugars has a larger effect on the final cell count because the yeast reach a maximum density and emit chemical triggers that tell them to stop reproducing.

The maximum cell density in a 2L starter is about 100 million cells/mL. The only thing that will prevent the yeast from reaching this cell density is if there are so few initial yeast cells that they consume all the oxygen or other vital nutrient before reaching it.

Bottom line: yeast will multiply until they reach a limiting factor, whether that's oxygen, nutrients, or food or physical space (cell density).
 
So there's one person saying max cell density in 2L is 200 billion cells, another says 400 billion cells.... Do you guys have references from a study?

I know the 'Yeast' book's data was from unshaken samples, I don't recall them talking about the difference in using a stir plate, or shaking (which is unfortunate). I thought the point of that section was about using an appropriate size starter for the # of cells you have to work with.

At school when we took a bacteria off a plate, we would grow it up in 10mL, then 250 mL then we could pitch that into a 6 L batch, and we would either replate from the 10 mL, or the 250 mL batch. The reason was because we didn't want the cells to reproduce too many times, cause they would mutate.
I thought the 'Yeast' book was recommending the same sort of thing.
 
I heard an analogy recently:

"Yeast cultures are like nuclear weapons...."

The point being that exponential growth is explosive and you don't have to be all that exact to get desirable results.

At the end of the day, unless your counting cells, your dealing with estimates. Very educated estimates, but estimates nonetheless. Viability, pitch rate, cell count, etc. are all estimates in the absence of an exact cell count for your culture.

So at the end of the day people need to break their reliance on pitch calculators and the like. Useful tools for ballparking? Absolutely. Definitive source for yeast numbers in your brew? Hardly.

What matters ultimately is the intuitive "feel" you have for your brewery. Your end products flavor and attenuation should be the guide, not a web based, generalized for the masses calculator.
 
Understanding the limitations of a calculated based on a dataset is one thing, and saying your intuitive guidelines are more accurate is another. I think having a rule for pitching rates to get your desired flavor profiles, and using a yeast calculator would probably be the best course of action for accuracy and consistency.

I know that the calculations done by braukaiser have been verified by several homebrewers and professional yeast labs that I trust. Very few have found data sets that correspond to the growth rates that chris white used when making mr. Malty, and that he's never publicly published...

According to braukaiser, pitching into a 2L 1.040 starter will give 333-470 depending on the inoculation rate, hey look the average is 400 :mug:. If pitching from a vial, then it depends on the initial cell count and how old the vial is. Braukaisers numbers had a typical variance of 15%, and your guideline falls right into the middle of that. However without taking note of the age of your yeast, and therefore your inoculation rate, then it's going to have even greater margin of error. (I wrote enough error analysis for school, not going to carry it out through the calculation).

So there's one person saying max cell density in 2L is 200 billion cells, another says 400 billion cells.... Do you guys have references from a study?


I know the 'Yeast' book's data was from unshaken samples, I don't recall them talking about the difference in using a stir plate, or shaking (which is unfortunate). I thought the point of that section was about using an appropriate size starter for the # of cells you have to work with.

At school when we took a bacteria off a plate, we would grow it up in 10mL, then 250 mL then we could pitch that into a 6 L batch, and we would either replate from the 10 mL, or the 250 mL batch. The reason was because we didn't want the cells to reproduce too many times, cause they would mutate.
I thought the 'Yeast' book was recommending the same sort of thing.
According to yeast, american sour beers, and several yeast lab comparies I've spoken to on the subject, typical sacc yeasts have a theoretical maximum cell density between 200 and 250 million cells per mL or 200-250 Billion per Liter. However that's with ideal propogation media. In a starter with dme and some yeast nutrient, we're more likely to get in the area of 160-200 Mil/mL depending on nutrients provided, plato of the starter, innoculation rate, and aeration.

250mL of bacteria has a much higher cell count than 250mL of yeast. According to several credible sources I've contacted, brett and lacto have a maximum cell density roughly 2.5x that of the brewers yeast. So while a 250mL starter of yeast might contain ~50 B cells, lacto/brett might contain 125B which is enough to sour/ferment 5G of wort.

As an aside, this is pretty much exactly what I do with my yeast bank. I propagate in 250mL starters, harvest a dense 50 mL slurry after decanting the supernatant, leaving me with 50mL of slurry containing ~45B cells. When needed, this gets propagated back up into a new starter 250mL if I'm just replenishing my yeast bank, or larger if I'm preparing for a batch of beer. Cultures get plated and re-propagated occasionally as needed.

I'm not aware of any academic studies performed on yeast growth rates using standard homebrewing process', the best I'm aware of is braukaisers data sets, and the verification of those data sets by other homebrewers.

Sometime soon, hopefully within the year, Omega Yeast Labs will be publishing their dataset which will provide strain specific growth rates, so you'll be able to get way more accurate models as the maximum cell density will depend on the strain. So you'll say 80B cells of say wlp 002 on a stir plate will produce ~xxx cells.


S. Cerevisiae was a strong proponent of pitching starters at krausen, as peak cell density has been achieved and it is at a time when the yeast have a large reserve of nutrients and are active. It's better to pitch them at that point, then to wait for another potentially ~30B cells and lose your advantage of nutrient reserves. This is a similar method to the 'vitality' method of starters, pitching them 6-8 hours later which usually coincides with krausen. He was also against the use of stir plates, that they caused shear stress to the yeast and provided worse aeration than a vigorous shake. My method is currently to aerate well by hand, then start the stir plate about 3 hours later. This gives a lot of aeration, and the stir plate continues to degas the media of dissolved c02, which is a leading factor for the difference in growth rates between non agitation and stir plates. Again, several yeast labs have commented on this as well, that stir plates purpose is not to keep yeast in suspension, but to remove c02 from solution.
 
Understanding the limitations of a calculated based on a dataset is one thing, and saying your intuitive guidelines are more accurate is another. I think having a rule for pitching rates to get your desired flavor profiles, and using a yeast calculator would probably be the best course of action for accuracy and consistency.

I know that the calculations done by braukaiser have been verified by several homebrewers and professional yeast labs that I trust. Very few have found data sets that correspond to the growth rates that chris white used when making mr. Malty, and that he's never publicly published...

According to braukaiser, pitching into a 2L 1.040 starter will give 333-470 depending on the inoculation rate, hey look the average is 400 :mug:. If pitching from a vial, then it depends on the initial cell count and how old the vial is. Braukaisers numbers had a typical variance of 15%, and your guideline falls right into the middle of that. However without taking note of the age of your yeast, and therefore your inoculation rate, then it's going to have even greater margin of error. (I wrote enough error analysis for school, not going to carry it out through the calculation).


According to yeast, american sour beers, and several yeast lab comparies I've spoken to on the subject, typical sacc yeasts have a theoretical maximum cell density between 200 and 250 million cells per mL or 200-250 Billion per Liter. However that's with ideal propogation media. In a starter with dme and some yeast nutrient, we're more likely to get in the area of 160-200 Mil/mL depending on nutrients provided, plato of the starter, innoculation rate, and aeration.

250mL of bacteria has a much higher cell count than 250mL of yeast. According to several credible sources I've contacted, brett and lacto have a maximum cell density roughly 2.5x that of the brewers yeast. So while a 250mL starter of yeast might contain ~50 B cells, lacto/brett might contain 125B which is enough to sour/ferment 5G of wort.

As an aside, this is pretty much exactly what I do with my yeast bank. I propagate in 250mL starters, harvest a dense 50 mL slurry after decanting the supernatant, leaving me with 50mL of slurry containing ~45B cells. When needed, this gets propagated back up into a new starter 250mL if I'm just replenishing my yeast bank, or larger if I'm preparing for a batch of beer. Cultures get plated and re-propagated occasionally as needed.

I'm not aware of any academic studies performed on yeast growth rates using standard homebrewing process', the best I'm aware of is braukaisers data sets, and the verification of those data sets by other homebrewers.

Sometime soon, hopefully within the year, Omega Yeast Labs will be publishing their dataset which will provide strain specific growth rates, so you'll be able to get way more accurate models as the maximum cell density will depend on the strain. So you'll say 80B cells of say wlp 002 on a stir plate will produce ~xxx cells.


S. Cerevisiae was a strong proponent of pitching starters at krausen, as peak cell density has been achieved and it is at a time when the yeast have a large reserve of nutrients and are active. It's better to pitch them at that point, then to wait for another potentially ~30B cells and lose your advantage of nutrient reserves. This is a similar method to the 'vitality' method of starters, pitching them 6-8 hours later which usually coincides with krausen. He was also against the use of stir plates, that they caused shear stress to the yeast and provided worse aeration than a vigorous shake. My method is currently to aerate well by hand, then start the stir plate about 3 hours later. This gives a lot of aeration, and the stir plate continues to degas the media of dissolved c02, which is a leading factor for the difference in growth rates between non agitation and stir plates. Again, several yeast labs have commented on this as well, that stir plates purpose is not to keep yeast in suspension, but to remove c02 from solution.


Your post is case in point: someone taking the tools they have and adapting them to their process. You recognize the limitations and shore up any inconsistencies with experience and a bit of intuition.
 
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