Yeast or no yeast?

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direwolf23

direwolf23

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Hi all,
I have a press, 22 gallons of freshly pressed cider, three large carboys with vents and the other tools for making wine (I don't make wine, someone gave me the kit when they moved out of state).

After doing a lot of reading, I am curious which direction to head with my first batch of cider. My plan is to take one large carboy (maybe two) and fill it to where the neck begins of fresh cider. The cider I have was pressed two days ago and is refrigerated now but I could press more to put right in the carboy if that is better.

So, do I add yeast or do I let natural yeast do the job? Which is better and why or is it pretty much a preference thing?


Thanks!
 
Sounds like a good time to do an experiment! Pitch yeast into one or two, and let the other ferment naturally. They both may end up awesome, one may be better than the other, or they may complement each other where blending would be done at the end for a good final product.
 
Depends on what you like. If it were me, I'd do one with just the natural yeast, one with S04 and no sugar and one with US05 and 2lbs of sugar. My girlfriend would say use the 3068 and sugar or S04 with honey. You can check out the sticky for more options. Do you know what type of apples?
 
CvilleKevin said:
Depends on what you like. If it were me, I'd do one with just the natural yeast, one with S04 and no sugar and one with US05 and 2lbs of sugar. My girlfriend would say use the 3068 and sugar or S04 with honey. You can check out the sticky for more options. Do you know what type of apples?
Click to expand...

I have a mix of eight different apples including transparent, Red Rel, Yellow Del, Spy, Mac, Honey Crisp, and Jonathan. The cider came off the press a beautiful clear red and is the best cider I have produced yet. The orchard I have access too has plenty of apples so I could custom blend if that is the better way to go.


How much yeast do you use per gallon of cider? I will take your advice and try several batches. I have a dozen one gallon glass containers and three five gallon glass carboys.
 
The natural yeast that grows on apples is dependent on the area where the apples grow. There will be different strains and mutations, so it's not just a simple matter of picking apples from the same orchard to produce the same results. Traditional cider is naturally fermented, using only the yeast in the apples, and usually takes longer to ferment. People like to make naturally fermented cider because it’s a throw-back to the old ways of doing things.

The main problem is that you have no control. There could be a huge pool of bacteria that takes over the cider, because instead of pasteurizing it you let it go untouched. You will also have a hard time reproducing the exact cider flavor. Purchased yeast strains are (we would like to believe) meticulously reproduced in a controlled, clean environment. Also, if you want a champagne, wine, or ale taste…all you have to do is buy the respective yeast.
 
Nice mix! I'm not familiar with the transparent and honey crisp. Northern Spys, Macs and Jonathans make great cider. Red Del and Yellow Del are good for sweet cider, but dont have a lot of taste once you ferment off the sugar (although they will raise your final ABV). The yellows have a bit more taste than the reds and I sometimes use those for sweetening a tart mix.

If you are happy with the cider, then no need to mess with the mix. If you press again, two bushels of Spy to one bushel Mac and one bushel Jonathan would make a great base hard cider mix. If you can press the varieties individually, you can play around with adding some of the others to see how that changes the mix. The sugar will mostly ferment off, so dont pay as much attention to that - its mainly the flavor you get when its in your mouth and the finish that carry through to the hard cider.

The yeast packs are generally enough for 5 gallons, but its OK to add a whole pack to a single gallon. When I'm doing single gallon batches, I usually pitch between 1/5 and 1/2 of a pack, depending on how many batches I am doing with the same yeast.

If you've got a dozen gallon glass containers, you might want to experiment around with maybe adding honey to a couple of batches or with and without sugar - depending on how many batches you want to manage at once. If you fill 2 of the carboys and 11 of the gallons, that would leave with an extra of each for racking. I've also had good results with Nottingham, S23 and Wyeast 4184 (although the last two are tough to keep from fermenting all the way dry). I've got another 6 wheat beer yeast batches in progress and a couple of those seem really promising.

I cold crash my cider to stop fermentation before all the sugar is gone. Some people like to let it go all the way dry and then store it for a year, so you could experiment with that as well.
 
I've done natural ferments with juice from four different orchards and the yeast profile from each was fairly similar until they got down to about 1.020 or so (granted all of these orchards were within about 100 miles of each other). At that point, they all taste pretty good. Below that, they can get a little weird. I've had best results from apples that I've either pressed myself or from a local press that has very strict quality controls (they dont use any apples that have touched the ground, wash all apples before the crush, and regularly sanitize all of their press equipment).

Even then, with a natural ferment, I would advise stopping the ferment at 1.010 or higher. Below that, there just isnt a lot of taste, even if they ferment out clean (although your yeast may be different in that respect)

Since you have gallon jugs, you might want to try some natural ferments in those first, to see how they come out. I do think that they will be fairly consistent - probably not as much so as using an ale yeast, but natural yeast has a very distinct taste that you cant buy in a package and if you nail it once, you can nail it (or something very close to it) again.

Personally, I prefer an ale yeast. But I've done several tastings where a wild yeast batch was the favorite, so I keep making em. I have also screwed up more wild yeast batches then any other type of yeast. But having your own press and access to great apples, I would say that your odds of getting a good natural batch are much better than most.
 
I went to the local brew supply store and only found a few kinds of yeast. Being that I did not have access to the sticky there I bought some that looked reasonable for the job based on the description but find that it was in the "probably won't use again" category. Lalvin EC 1118. So, I might try some with that and try the wild option with the rest.
 
At first the main problem I had was with bad flavors. The cider would taste pretty good until it got to about 1.020, and then start tasting like musty blankets and yellowjackets.

Now the main challenge is keeping the flavor intact before it ferments out. Ale yeasts go through a fairly predictable pattern where the fermentation builds up and then subsides and the sg drops fairly slowly - like a couple points a day - so it is fairly easy to stop at the right point, and even if I'm out of town for a day or two, and miss the perfect spot, it wont get too bad. But natural ferments can keep accelerating right through the end and drop 10 points in a day, so you really have to watch them carefully. Once they get below 1.010, they dont have a lot of taste. They wont really taste bad, but not worth drinking either.
 
The EC1118 is not really bad - just hard to control. If you like the cider super dry, then no problem. If you want some residual sweetness, you might want to read up a bit on cold crashing. Personally, I'd leave some of that cider in the fridge and get some ale yeast, even if you have to order it online. Or since you have access to great apples, you could let these batches rip with the wild and EC1118 yeast and order some ale yeast now for the next pressing
 
Ok, so I got another hydrometer at the brew store yesterday as well (daughter knocked the first one off the counter) and checked the SG of the cider I have in the fridge from pressing last Saturday. The SG is 1.06. From the reading I did, that will only produce hard cider with an alcohol content of 5%-6% and that is if I fully ferment it. I would like to have a hard sweet flat cider when I am done with an alcohol content > 5% and <10%. So, if I understand this correctly, I would need to end fermentation before all the sugar in the cider is turned to alcohol to have some residual sweetness but if I do that with this cider I will likely have an alcohol content <5%... right? So, I am in need of some additional sugar.

Is this calculation I found correct? I found it on a website and of course, if it is on the internet it must be true &#61514;

Add 2.25 ounces (67.5 grams) of sugar to raise the specific gravity of one gallon of juice by 5 points (for example from 1.035 to 1.040).
 
Starting with an sg of 1.060 will give you an ABV of 7.75% if you ferment it down to 1.000. If you leave it with a little residual sweetness, say 1.010, then you will get 6.35%

Yes, 2.25 oz of sugar to raise one gallon by 5 points.
 
CvilleKevin said:
Starting with an sg of 1.060 will give you an ABV of 7.75% if you ferment it down to 1.000. If you leave it with a little residual sweetness, say 1.010, then you will get 6.35%

Yes, 2.25 oz of sugar to raise one gallon by 5 points.
Click to expand...

First off, thanks for taking the time to mentor me through this. It is greatly appreciated.

Sounds like I should be in great shape for what I want to make! I don't think I will add any sugar, just get the wild ferment going and then a couple others with a few kinds of yeast.

I didn't get anything done last night with this so I think I will run back to the brew store and check out some of the ale yeasts.

Thanks again!
 
Ok, I have three different batches brewing. Two one gallon jugs with S-23, two one gallon jugs with EC-1118, and one five gallon jug with wild yeast.

The two batches with yeast adds are fermenting just fine... a bubble through the air trap every 10 second or so. I left them in the house for the first 48 hours (roughly 69-70 degrees) then moved them under my house tonight where the temp is around 55 degrees. These seem to be doing well and I plan on checking the SG each week. Where do I want the SG to be when I either cold crash it or add something to kill the yeast? Also, what do I add to kill the yeast?

The wild yeast batch is a different story. I pressed the cider for all three batches and did a course filter to get the big stuff out then put it into sterile jug. The wild yeast batch after two days is only bulbing every two minuets or so. I read that it takes a little longer to get the wild yeast batches to get going as the yeast need to grow but after two days, should I be seeing more than this? I left it in the house as I also read that warmer temperatures encourage yeast production.

Thanks for any input.
 
For the first batches, you picked some challenging yeasts to work with. I like the flavor of the S23 a lot, but it can be tough to crash because it is a lager yeast. Good thing that you have both this and the EC1118 in gallons, as these will be easier to crash. Sound like they are doing fine for now.

Where to stop them is a matter of your taste. Commercial ciders that you see in the grocery store are usually about 1.020. Woodchuck Granny smith is the driest mass produced cider that I know of and it is 1.014. Personally I like something more in the 1.006 to 1.010 range, because the natural apple sugar has a lot of flavor in this range. S23 makes a great dry cider at 1.002 or 1.004, but it is good sweet also. Same with EC1118.

Once the SGs drop to around 1.015 on the S23 and EC1118, start checking them more often. Both of those yeasts can drop 3 to 4 points a day right up to the end of the ferment, so you really need to check them just about every day or even twice a day when they start getting near the end of the ferment if you want to nail the best crash point.

You can add k-meta and sorbate to stop fermentation, but this will affect the taste. Cold crashing is more work, but doesnt step on the apple taste. read the sticky for more info on cold crashing

For the wild yeast batches I've done, the slower the better, but wild yeasts are different so hart to say for sure. The main thing is not to let it go too fast so if it starts up once its in your house, you may want to move it back to the basement if you see bubbles more than every 5 sec. Wild yeast batches tend to taste better crashed at higher sgs, say around 1.010 to 1.025
 
Amazing, I saw no change when I went to bed at 12 last night, but when I got up at 6 this morning there was an inch of beautiful foam on the top :)

I have a few questions out of curiosity:

Does wild yeast ferment at the top or bottom of the brew?

Is there a name for the "foam" at the top and sediment at the bottom aside from "foam" and "sediment" ?

What is all that stuff that falls out of solution to the bottom of the carboy? Obviously some of it is particles from the apples.

How does CvilleKevin have the time an patience to reply to so many threads with such through answers? (much thanks to him for his patience in babysitting me though my first batch)
 
1. would depend on the specific yeast that actually set up shop in your juice

2. kreusen

3. apple sediment and yeast clumps

4. I dunno just getting back from a 1-2 year break myself because I couldnt answer stuff anymore with out loosing my sanity
 
Thanks!

Another thought, I found in the wine making kit that was given to me (mentioned in the first post) some PH test strips, do I need to worry about that with cider?
 
nah, go by your taste. What you want is a nice balanced juice mix and the pH cant really tell you that. I got a pH meter last year and I use it - its interesting to know what the starting pH is, but not really that useful, except maybe for comparing to previous year batches.
 
Checked all three brews tonight. I know I could probably wait a few more days but, what the heck, it IS a hobby :)

EC-1118 is at 1.030 @ 61 degrees F
S-23 is at 1.040 @ 61 degrees F
Wild is at 1.040 @ 69 degrees F

All started at 1.060 @ 59 degrees F

I took a sip of each, all are still sweet but the alcohol taste certainly was there. All tasted very pleasant as well. Now, I am guessing that I have to be careful about how long they are open to the air, and the cleanliness of what I am putting in there, and being careful not to put the cider I tested back into the jug (found the sample thief in the wine making supplies AFTER I checked them... and something I suspect s a pump to get it out of the carboys).

My question here is about creating too much head space. I didn't return the samples to the carboy, and I had already noticed that the 1 gallon carboys have more head space than they did at the start. That makes sense as it is expelling gas (CO2?) and nothing can get in so the the overall volume would change. Should I add more cider to keep the head space down? If so, is it ok if was frozen? Is suspect that freezing it will not make a difference and it is from the same pressing.

This is turning into a pretty cool hobby :) and not like hunting upland game, fly fishing.
 
Things are looking good! After a full week of fermentation, my wild batch is at 1.040, my EC1118 is at 1.028, and my S23 is at 1.032. I was just reading about swishing the sample in the sample thief for 1 minute before taking the reading and will be sure to do so next sample... I figure I should check them again tonight or tomorrow. The samples for the readings above were done Saturday night. My understanding is that the EC1118 can finish in a hurry so I want to keep an close eye on it. Starting SG was 1.06

So, here is my plan:
Once each batch reaches a SG of 1.010 I will rack them into new containers, then cold crash them for a few days in a fridge at around 40 degrees F, then bottle and keep cold until we drink them. Am I on target here? Or do I need to let them sit in the secondary containers to clear or something?

Thanks!
 
Wild @ 1.038
EC-1118 @ 1.018
S-23 @ 1.022


Getting close! The EC-1118 sure has a champagne flavor, but seems a touch bland right now. I am hoping that improves with age. S23 tastes great as does the wild.
 
Wild @ 1.032
EC-1118 @ 1.014
S-23 @ 1.018

I am checking the latter two every day in efforts to hit 1.010 when I rack and cold crash each of the batches.
 
Wild - hanging around 1.03
EC-1118 @ 1.010
S-23 @ 1.011... but being that I am racking the EC-1118 anyway, I called it close enough. Both have been racked and are in a 37 degree fridge to cold crash.

On the wild yeast batch, it is not moving fast at all @ 67-68 degrees F. It is staring to smell a touch but still tastes good so I am not too worried about it. I read in a few places on these forums that taking time to ferment is a good thing. Out of curiosity, what are the key signs that something has contaminated or has "gone wrong"? I don't think mine has but thought it would be good to know.

Thanks
 
My last batch finally finished and is cold crashing... it tases soooooo good! But not much alcohol. I will have to add sugar next time.
 
I recommend using a beer yeast. Wyeast London III works well. Wild yeast is unpredictible and can often taste nasty. Wine yeast will make it too dry. Beer yeast will leave a slight bit of residual sweetness, but not anywere close to commercial cider sweetness.

Forrest
 
Austinhomebrew said:
I recommend using a beer yeast. Wyeast London III works well. Wild yeast is unpredictible and can often taste nasty. Wine yeast will make it too dry. Beer yeast will leave a slight bit of residual sweetness, but not anywere close to commercial cider sweetness.

Forrest
Click to expand...

I used one of each actually, S-23, EC-1118, and wild. All three are very different but good. Thanks for the tip!
 

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