Yeast can be temperamental

[robint]

Reading and old post from 2023 - I didnt realise that some yeasts can be fussy. I dont mean about alc level - yes it has an upper limit I get that. What seems to be the case with commercial yeasts (nothing seems to affect standard bread yeast btw) is that they need the right starting conditions OG - too high and they wont start. They need to be cultured in 100ml jar first to really get them going, they need the right temperature as per spec. They dont like being moved around or shaken in the fermenter. They dont like temperature changes - keep within desired +/- 5F spec value. A sudden drop will stall them and they may not restart.
Ive had several worts that didnt start at OG 1060 ish , dont know why

Some strange things can happen when you wort doesnt start with a noticeable healthy fizz.

Any opinions on this?

OBTW are there any of those secretive additives that fod and drink manufacturers use that could be poisoning natural fermentation

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Any opinions on this?

The details of the differences between beer yeast strains are more interesting than the generalizations of the strains.

For dry strains that I use, I find that US-05, S-04, Notthingham, and BRY-97 work over a broader range of temperatures (and temperature variation); Verdant and New England seem to want warmer (67F not 63F) temperatures; London (discontinued) & Windsor are more sensitive to wort composition. Some strains work fast (Windsor, especially when warm), while others are slower (US-05, especially when cooler (say 63F)) and don't always require fermentation temperature control.

If you find the right personas to follow, there's a lot of interesting information in the AHA forums from the 2017-2018 timeframe.

OBTW ...

Maybe there's some merit to the (historic) Reinheitsgebot regulations.

 

[hottpeper13]

I do all grain and I don't think any of the ingredients I use have any additives.
I pitch mostly vitality starters and lag phase is 4 hrs or less, no mater the yeast. Also having 70-150 ppm calcium in the mash gives me a strong fermentation and crystal clear beer.

 

[Kickass]

I might be alone here but I’ll take a contrary opinion. In my experience, yeast want to make beer and are very good at it. Sure some strains can be nuanced, saison DuPont and Windsor are the two that initially come to mind. But in general, healthy pitch rate, OG’s in a modest < 1.080 and reasonable temp control are all you need for a healthy fermentation.

 

[hotbeer]

Dry yeast will simplify all the fuss. For the most part, you only have to worry about temperature of wort at pitch and the temperature maintained in the FV. For storage the dry yeast needs nothing special. Though most of us keep it in the fridge or the freezer. And it doesn't need additives when pitched.

Maintaining liquid yeast always seemed fussy and temperamental to me. That's why I never have used it.

 

[mac_1103]

Ive had several worts that didnt start at OG 1060 ish , dont know why

I'm struggling to think of any reason that a 1.060 wort chilled to a reasonable temperature before pitching a reasonable amount of yeast wouldn't start. Almost everything I brew is above 1.060 and I've never had fermentation not start. I brewed a 1.099 stout last year. Sprinkled one pack of S-04 on top. Bubbling like crazy within four hours.

 

[robint]

If you find the right persons to follow, there's a lot of interesting information in the AHA forums from the 2017-2018 timeframe.

AHA seems moribund and want your Subs $ up front. Their forum is archaic and not user friendly (ie no user/visitor data stats etc) and doesnt invite digging into earlier postings (no time filters). So I would like to follow the good guys but thats a common problem with forums is that the gold nuggets of wisdom from eminent members get quickly submerged under piles of trub.

As you say - you need to find said member to follow and be able to tag

If only - Im sure we could all benefit

 

[robint]

I'm struggling to think of any reason that a 1.060 wort chilled to a reasonable temperature before pitching a reasonable amount of yeast wouldn't start. Almost everything I brew is above 1.060 and I've never had fermentation not start. I brewed a 1.099 stout last year. Sprinkled one pack of S-04 on top. Bubbling like crazy within four hours.

Yes-indeed that seems to be the wisdom

Pitching? if using speciality dried yeast cant you just sprinkle the little packet on top of the wort - why do you need to mess with a starter? reasonable amount 1 tsp (5g)/gall(5L)? Special yeasts are normally 5g/pack

Temp - room quality 75F +/- 5F? to start (but may move on to a cooler region as things progress). But I found that I moved my ferment jar to a cooler back room 60F after 3days and ferment shuts down and wouldnt restart when the following day I moved it back into main room at 75F?

Why does that happen? Temp shock?

 

[mac_1103]

speciality dried yeast

I don't know what that means. But I would suggest following the manufacturer's instructions (shocking I know). For example.

 

[MaxStout]

Yes-indeed that seems to be the wisdom

Pitching? if using speciality dried yeast cant you just sprinkle the little packet on top of the wort - why do you need to mess with a starter? reasonable amount 1 tsp (5g)/gall(5L)? Special yeasts are normally 5g/pack

Temp - room quality 75F +/- 5F? to start (but may move on to a cooler region as things progress). But I found that I moved my ferment jar to a cooler back room 60F after 3days and ferment shuts down and wouldnt restart when the following day I moved it back into main room at 75F?

Why does that happen? Temp shock?

You generally don't need a starter with dry. The manufacturers either say to sprinkle onto the wort, or rehydrate with some water before pitching.

As to your temp issue--moving from a 75F room (temps inside your fermenter are probably several degrees above that) to a 60F room may have shocked the yeast and dropped it out of suspension. What strain did you use?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If you find the right personas to follow, there's a lot of interesting information in the AHA forums from the 2017-2018 timeframe.

AHA seems moribund and want your Subs $ up front. Their forum is archaic and not user friendly (ie no user/visitor data stats etc) and doesnt invite digging into earlier postings (no time filters).

• AFAIK, AHA forums have never required AHA membership.
• There was a recent replacement of forum software to the Discourse platform.

So I would like to follow the good guys but thats a common problem with forums is that the gold nuggets of wisdom from eminent members get quickly submerged under piles of trub.

• ChatGPT 4o is better at filtering than 3.5 was.

As you say - you need to find said member to follow and be able to tag

If only - Im sure we could all benefit

• ChatGPT 4o is good at "top 5" lists.
• Hopefully, the names & threads migrated properly to the new platform.

 

[robint]

You generally don't need a starter with dry. The manufacturers either say to sprinkle onto the wort, or rehydrate with some water before pitching.

As to your temp issue--moving from a 75F room (temps inside your fermenter are probably several degrees above that) to a 60F room may have shocked the yeast and dropped it out of suspension. What strain did you use?

Thats an interesting point. We've all seen how Ale/bread yeast is top fermenting and is designed to go APE and produce CO2 big time in the first 30mins or so. Its what bakers want.

Bottom fermenters are a different animal. AFAIK they still seem to go wild in the first few hours given right conditions of temp/ OG/sugars/ nutrients/O2, then they seem to drop to the bottom and ferment from there?

I understand thats its not wise to leave the sediment layer longer than say 7 days as it starts to decay anaerobically and produce off flavours - that makes sense - like compost

However, racking off can introduce O2 which you dont want when going into 2nd stage ferment AFAIK. If you pipe it from one sealed vessel to another? (for a flat bottomed tub) or somehow just slice off the bottom layer? The sediment stick to sides/bottom and needs to be scrubbed off AFAIK - so even a conical FV will still have cake on its funnel?

Fermentation Vessel design - Home brewers tend to use plastic tubs? (but you cant see what is going on) Comments pls? Whats your best FV design thats practical for a home brewer?

I did wonder if it was helpful to agitate the cake once a day? What about a continuous mechanical stirrer (or magnetic plate). Given that generally you tend to get your first ferment over and done within 7 days (Am I right?)

What do you guys think - your wisdom please

BTW I heard of a whirlpool design where the wort is squirted around the sided and sediment is encouraged to collect as a pile in the middle bottom of the FV. Neat idea and seen a VID of a Home DIY just using a copper coil and small recirc pump. (looked like a 30 gal round tank) Hmm

 

[worlddivides]

I understand thats its not wise to leave the sediment layer longer than say 7 days as it starts to decay anaerobically and produce off flavours - that makes sense - like compost

It actually takes several months before autolysis occurs. You wouldn't want to leave a beer in primary for a year, but tons of people leave their beer in a single fermenter for a month or longer. You're not gonna get any off flavors from that short of a period of time.

 

[robint]

It actually takes several months before autolysis occurs. You wouldn't want to leave a beer in primary for a year, but tons of people leave their beer in a single fermenter for a month or longer. You're not gonna get any off flavors from that short of a period of time.

thanx for correction Buddy

 

[MaxStout]

Just to expand on what @worlddivides posted, autolysis is a potential problem in commercial brewing systems, due to the intense hydraulic pressures at the bottom of those big conicals.

For home brewers with smaller fermenters it isn't so much of an issue until you leave the beer on the cake for several months or more. If you plan to age long term, it would be wise to rack to a secondary FV after a few months.

Autolysis at homebrew scales is a myth that just doesn't seem to die.

 

[Bassman2003]

However, racking off can introduce O2 which you dont want when going into 2nd stage ferment AFAIK. If you pipe it from one sealed vessel to another? (for a flat bottomed tub) or somehow just slice off the bottom layer? The sediment stick to sides/bottom and needs to be scrubbed off AFAIK - so even a conical FV will still have cake on its funnel?

This is resolved via closed transfers to a keg. Bottles or cans are more difficult. One easy way to is to fermentation gas purge the keg you wish to serve from. So as you ferment, the gas flows through the keg, scrubbing all of the oxygen out. When it is time to transfer you just move the beer and oxygen is for the most part controlled.

Fermentation Vessel design - Home brewers tend to use plastic tubs? (but you cant see what is going on) Comments pls? Whats your best FV design thats practical for a home brewer?

I have used a lot of different fermenters. They all make beer. The better ones give you easy access to save the yeast for repitching as well as make closed transfers easy to execute. Kegs, Kegmenters and conicals are the best choice here.

I did wonder if it was helpful to agitate the cake once a day? What about a continuous mechanical stirrer (or magnetic plate). Given that generally you tend to get your first ferment over and done within 7 days (Am I right?)

Yeast agitation does improve fermentation times. But, it is closer to making a yeast starter than beer. Making beer is about creating flavors where starters are about making more yeast cells. Agitation in a yeast starter is about exchange of gas from liquid to atmosphere. You want to get the CO2 out and the O2 in. In a batch of beer, you do not want the O2 in after the yeast finish their growth phase. If you have pitched enough yeast that phase will not last very long.

What do you guys think - your wisdom please

BTW I heard of a whirlpool design where the wort is squirted around the sided and sediment is encouraged to collect as a pile in the middle bottom of the FV. Neat idea and seen a VID of a Home DIY just using a copper coil and small recirc pump. (looked like a 30 gal round tank) Hmm

If you are trying to collect yeast at the end of a ferment, I have found settling, draining & swirling to work quite well. I have two dip tubes in my fermenter - one for transferring the beer out and the other for transferring the yeast out after the beer is gone (which goes to the bottom). I transfer the beer away, swirl and then transfer the yeast into an oxygen purged 1-liter bottle. A 'soda bottle yeast brink' where it will be stored cold until being used again. All of this via keg posts which goes back to your fermenter question.

 

[jdauria]

Speaking of temperamental yeast, I am really getting fed up with Czech lager yeasts. They all seem to take days to get going. Brewed a Czech Pale Lager Saturday, pitched a starter of Wyeast 2278 Sunday morning, oxygenated for 2 minutes with 02 and almost 72 hours later, nothing. Used WLP800 in past, it took 5 days to get started. Imperial Urkel, 4 days. Why do they all seem to have a crazy lag time when every other lager yeast I use, I have krausen forming within 12 hours. If nothing by tomorrow morning I am going to throw in a pack of S23 dry yeast.

 

[robint]

Yeast agitation does improve fermentation times. But, it is closer to making a yeast starter than beer. Making beer is about creating flavors where starters are about making more yeast cells. Agitation in a yeast starter is about exchange of gas from liquid to atmosphere. You want to get the CO2 out and the O2 in. In a batch of beer, you do not want the O2 in after the yeast finish their growth phase. If you have pitched enough yeast that phase will not last very long.

Right on Bro - I understand now - that makes sense. Hence a good reason to make a proper starter with a small lab stirrer plate so as to get O2 in to hasten the multiplication process.

Then pitch to wort FV and keep O2 out and let CO2 saturate.

I have two dip tubes in my fermenter - one for transferring the beer out and the other for transferring the yeast out after the beer is gone (which goes to the bottom). I transfer the beer away, swirl and then transfer the yeast into an oxygen purged 1-liter bottle.

Yes , two dip tube syphons is the answer for a homebrewer.
TBH I get confused when I see most of the crappy DHs pushing their homebrew methods. Even I can see the obvious dumb 8ss mistakes they are making - such a waste of time mostly just looking for clicks and subs..

Cheers Buddy

 

[robint]

Speaking of temperamental yeast, I am really getting fed up with Czech lager yeasts. They all seem to take days to get going. Brewed a Czech Pale Lager Saturday, pitched a starter of Wyeast 2278 Sunday morning, oxygenated for 2 minutes with 02 and almost 72 hours later, nothing. Used WLP800 in past, it took 5 days to get started. Imperial Urkel, 4 days. Why do they all seem to have a crazy lag time when every other lager yeast I use, I have krausen forming within 12 hours. If nothing by tomorrow morning I am going to throw in a pack of S23 dry yeast.

Thnx 10 ^6 so its not my imagination as per my OP

 

[Bassman2003]

Speaking of temperamental yeast, I am really getting fed up with Czech lager yeasts. They all seem to take days to get going. Brewed a Czech Pale Lager Saturday, pitched a starter of Wyeast 2278 Sunday morning, oxygenated for 2 minutes with 02 and almost 72 hours later, nothing. Used WLP800 in past, it took 5 days to get started. Imperial Urkel, 4 days. Why do they all seem to have a crazy lag time when every other lager yeast I use, I have krausen forming within 12 hours. If nothing by tomorrow morning I am going to throw in a pack of S23 dry yeast.

Strange. Can you give more info on the yeast details and starter size/length? I do not know if I have heard of Czech yeasts behaving this way in general.

 

[jdauria]

Strange. Can you give more info on the yeast details and starter size/length? I do not know if I have heard of Czech yeasts behaving this way in general.

For the most recent one with WY2278 it was a 1 liter starter that ran on stir plate for 3 days, pitched into a 2.5 gallon 1.045 OG beer. Finally have a krausen this morning at about 92 hours post pitch. I will say the yeast pack was a little old, it's best by date was mid-December, so it was 5 months old already. When I used WLP800, that was a fresh PurePitch pack that was only weeks old, as I order White Labs yeasts directly from them. That was also a 1 liter starter in a 1.053 2.5 gallon batch. That took 5 days to show any life in the fermenter.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks. If it was a cold lager fermentation, the 5 month old 2278 might still be an under pitch. The fresh WLP800 with a starter is better and should be an improvement. Very strange. I would be making a 2+ liter starter if these are cold lager ferments as 1 liter does not result in a lot of new cell growth.

Something is the cause and it is usually not enough fresh active cells. So try making or starting with more cells and see if it improves for these strains.