Wyeast PC July -Sept 2014 - Sourpalooza

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hirschb

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Very odd instructions/description for 3202-PC :

Beer Styles: Lambic, Geuze, Flanders Red Ale, American Sour Ale
Profile: Wyeast’s QC Manager and World’s Tallest Microbiologist Greg Doss developed De Bom to create authentic Old- and New-World sour ale profiles but in a fraction of the time required by previous, less manly cultures. For best results, we recommend the following: no O2/aeration at beginning of fermentation; periodic dosing with O2 during fermentation to stimulate ethyl acetate production; frequent sampling to monitor development and complexity. Under optimum conditions, beers can be ready for consumption in 1-2 months.
Alc. Tolerance 10% ABV
Flocculation variable
Attenuation 75-85%
Temp. Range 80-85°F (26-29°C)

I wonder why no oxygen at start of fermentation?
Also, sours in 1-2 months!?!?
Fermentation temps of 80-85F! (which would work great here in FL).
 

IslandLizard

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Very odd instructions/description for 3202-PC :

[...] World’s Tallest Microbiologist Greg Doss developed De Bom [...]

I got worried there a little, but as long as he's tall it must be good! ;)

I'll likely order all 3 and start cracking on those sours finally. In a year or 2 we'll know how good they really are.
 

TNGabe

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Lacto looks interesting, but I think wyeast's normal strain is more hop tolerant than credited, or at least it can develop hop tolerance.

On the downside, this is when they're supposed to release 3726!
 

Fermented_minds

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MileHighBrewer

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I have a theory, that the oxygen additions, might be semi simulating open fermentation....like jp, logsdon, and upright are doing
 

FredTheNuke

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It would be awesome if a beer like La Folie or The Bruery Oude Tart was ready in 2 months... We can only dream on that.


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Gol_Deagle

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I think the no 02 in the beginning is to promote sourness from the lacto before the Brett and/or saccromyces can ferment (produce alcohol) which will inhibit lacto. Also Brett produces ethyl acetate in the presence of oxygen.


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MileHighBrewer

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Aren't these only exposed to air for the first 24 hours? I could be wrong, I don't know much about their processes.


I think that's for spontaneous fermentation, cooled overnight naturally then pumped into oak. I believe for open fermentation after cooling as normal, pitch yeast, then you allow primary to complete exposed and transfer to secondary for bulk aging. It's key to have a large, vigorous starter, at pro level or maybe higher cell counts to insures fast start
 

pegasus_brew

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Maybe there's no pedio in 3203? Doesn't pedio kick out a bunch of diacetyl? So if there were a fast acting laco ala Cascade and no pedio to kick out a bunch of diacetyl, you could probably kick out a sour that's ready to package in a few months. Obviously you miss out on the character you would get from brett chewing on the diacetyl, but it sounds like an interesting way to crank out a quick sour. Am I off base here?
 

sweetcell

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Maybe there's no pedio in 3203? Doesn't pedio kick out a bunch of diacetyl? So if there were a fast acting laco ala Cascade and no pedio to kick out a bunch of diacetyl, you could probably kick out a sour that's ready to package in a few months. Obviously you miss out on the character you would get from brett chewing on the diacetyl, but it sounds like an interesting way to crank out a quick sour. Am I off base here?

Nope, sounds about right to me.
 

FredTheNuke

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that or at least a good blending base. I'm game to try. what sucks is bugs are difficult to plate in the proper proportions so if this thing is only available from July-Sept it may be tough to get if we get hooked on it.... Heck - maybe the cake will support four or five good and zippy batches.
 

MileHighBrewer

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I am thinking this might be focused on a cascade-esque beer, sacch and lacto, clean lactic sour without brett (even though people have found brett in cascade before, likely from fruit).

Or perhaps they are intending people to do berliners wi this?

Who knows, i already reserved two of these at the lhbs so i will know soon enough!

Man, between several shipments of ecy, gigayeast kicking out several blends, and now wyeast PLUS all my usual bag of sour tricks....im going to have 75-100 gallons of buggy beer brewing. Already have nearly 40 as it is >.<

Eta - crap i also forgot about pitching on all my current cakes too
 

pegasus_brew

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I am thinking this might be focused on a cascade-esque beer, sacch and lacto, clean lactic sour without brett (even though people have found brett in cascade before, likely from fruit).

Or perhaps they are intending people to do berliners wi this?

Who knows, i already reserved two of these at the lhbs so i will know soon enough!

Man, between several shipments of ecy, gigayeast kicking out several blends, and now wyeast PLUS all my usual bag of sour tricks....im going to have 75-100 gallons of buggy beer brewing. Already have nearly 40 as it is >.<

Eta - crap i also forgot about pitching on all my current cakes too

I can't wait until the day that I have this many beers aging at once. I really don't have a whole lot of desire to brew clean beers lately, so I'm sure it won't be long. :mug:
 

grittanomyces

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Very excited about the De Bom yeast. 1-2 months and ferments at 80-85 during these hot GA summer months where it's tough to keep the house under 75, sign me up!!

Will be nice to brew with something besides saison or the very forgiving dry 97 all summer.
 

lawbadger

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For those interested in the De Bom Sour Blend, I emailed Wyeast to get more info and got the following response -

The 3203-PC De Bom Sour Blend does not contain Pediococcus. It contains a strain of Lactobacillus, Brettanomyces and Saccharomyces cerevisiae. Though the Lactobacillus in the blend is more hop tolerant that our 5335, I would keep the Bus at or below 15.

Hope this helps!
 

GuldTuborg

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Any details on the Oud Bruin blend? Is it safe to assume it's a heavy lacto blend with some sacch to finish up (being how it keeps the malt accentuating characteristics)? That seems to be the trend with these, as I suspected.
 

globe

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Is 3203 designed to ferment out by itself or do you need to use a normal yeast first?
 

hirschb

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Is 3203 designed to ferment out by itself or do you need to use a normal yeast first?

Ferment out by itself. My Lambic-esque with 3203 started showing a nice krausen within 2 days, with no aeration of the wort before pitching.
 

Oaked

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I hope to have some more data for you folks in +6 weeks on the De Bom.

On Sat (7/12) I whipped up 5 gallons of 1040 pale wort:

70% Two row pale
15% Munich
15% Malted wheat

1/2 oz Bobek (IBU < 8)

It probably got significant aeration when I poured the wort into the carboy...no additional though.

I noticed a lacto "blob" on top within 8 hours. Within 24 hours a "standard" brett/sacc krausen. No interesting aromas to note. Larger bubbles in the krausen. The morning of 7/14 the krausen was climbing pretty high- I took off the air lock and gave it a good swirl. I did the same today. I swear I'm smelling some acid and some fruity esters.

Anyone planning a saison w/ the 3209?
 

MileHighBrewer

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Excellent! I'm going to pitch mine this weekend. Probably a Vienna base with wheat and strisselspelt since I have a pound. Or choice debittered, also have a pound
 

MileHighBrewer

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Sweet jebus that brevis was expensive!! Still not sure what I'm doing with it. Think I'm leaning towards dosing the lacto for 1-2 days and pitching clean yeast, with fruit down the line ala cascade
 

metic

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Has anyone brewed with the Oud Bruin blend yet? I emailed Wyeast about fermentation temperatures, and they advised pitching at 80. They assured me that the yeast would be quite clean at these temps, but I'm still worried about ending up with a hot fusel-filled mess if I start that high. Even when I let saisons get up into this range, I usually pitch them at a lower temperature. So I'm interested to hear other people's results. (I understand that the high temperature is to encourage the lactobacillus, its the yeast I am worried about.)
 

MileHighBrewer

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IIRC, from Wild Brews, ob's are fermented all the way up to the 90s in ss for shorter periods then blended with sweet beer.

It is a rather suggestion...but with de dom so is not adding 02 at pitch, but then adding oxygen periodically through fermentation.

I think I may use that one this weekend...maybe more of a dubbel based recipe, make a du-brune
 

Oaked

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I wouldn't be worried about pitching at 80 w/ (my assumptions on) that blend. I bet the lacto wakes up first.

I forgot to mention my pitching temp on a post...

82 and still maintaining...

Though you have a great point. I want to continue to assume that blend has no brett (to keep the malt base intact?) and so I wonder what sacc strain they have working in there.
 

Oldsock

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I wouldn't be worried about pitching at 80 w/ (my assumptions on) that blend. I bet the lacto wakes up first.

I forgot to mention my pitching temp on a post...

82 and still maintaining...

Though you have a great point. I want to continue to assume that blend has no brett (to keep the malt base intact?) and so I wonder what sacc strain they have working in there.

I've got a pack of Oud Bruin arriving today. Considering pitching when the wort hits 80F, but putting it in the basement at 65F right after that. Still not sure exactly what I'm brewing with it though, I feel like I have enough classic dark sours aging already.
 

Oaked

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I've got a pack of Oud Bruin arriving today. Considering pitching when the wort hits 80F, but putting it in the basement at 65F right after that. Still not sure exactly what I'm brewing with it though, I feel like I have enough classic dark sours aging already.


Thank you for volunteering a saison style then?

:)
 

droder1

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I asked wyeast for more info on De Bom; as in the website description, the instructions regarding no initial aeration, but then adding aeration thereafter was pretty vague. Follows is their response. Thanks go to Jess Caudill for responding and sharing the info. Figured I'd share with you all,

He also happened to provide info on Oud Bruin (was surprised to see that the Oud Bruin culture is designed to produce a drinkable beer in 6-8 weeks as well; it discusses micro aeration as well, but just indirectly).

2014 Summer Sours Additional Information

General Questions:
Swollen Package?- The blend may contain trace amounts of fermentable extract which can lead to CO2 production. Slight swelling of the Activator over time is OK.
Activate?- Although it will not hurt, you do not need to activate De Bom or Oud Bruin. The packages will not swell at the same rate as standard Wyeast Strains.

3203 De Bom:
&#8226; Keep IBU&#8217;s low (<15 IBUs)- Although the bacteria cultures have some hop resistance, we want the cultures to become quickly established in the fermentation for rapid acid production. Raising IBU levels will increase inhibition of the bacteria cultures and slow acid production.
&#8226; No O2 at inoculation- Once again, we want the bacteria cultures to become quickly established in the fermentation for rapid acid production. Raising O2 levels will increase inhibition of the bacteria cultures and slow acid production.
&#8226; Temperature (80-85&#8304;F)- The bacteria cultures perform better at warmer temperatures. Just like increasing IBU and O2 levels, decreasing fermentation temperatures will slow down acid production.
&#8226; Micro-aeration- A low level (not necessarily noticeable) of ethyl acetate (acetic/solvent) can increase the complexity of lambic style beers. Brettanomyces produces ethyl acetate when oxygen is available. This typically occurs slowly through the ingress of trace levels of oxygen into aging vessels. We recommend dosing small amounts of oxygen into the beer to accelerate this process with the following method:
o Monitor pH and gravity reduction in the fermenter until 80% fermentable extract has been reduced. ( (OG-G)/(OG-TGEpected))
o Add 4 ppm O2.
o Incubate 48 hours Measure gravity and pH and taste.
o Repeat aeration and testing cycle every 48 hours until desired complexity has been reached.
&#8226; Oak- This culture is designed to produce a drinkable beer in 6-8 weeks so it may be desirable to add oak during micro-aeration. Another method is to create an oak extract by boiling oak in 500-1000 ml water for 15 min. Once cooled, this can be dosed into sample volumes to determine final dosage rate for beer.


3203 Oud Bruin:
&#8226; Keep IBU&#8217;s low (<15 IBUs)- Although the bacteria cultures have some hop resistance, we want the cultures to become quickly established in the fermentation for rapid acid production. Raising IBU levels will increase inhibition of the bacteria cultures and slow acid production.
&#8226; No O2 at inoculation- Once again, we want the bacteria cultures to become quickly established in the fermentation for rapid acid production. Raising O2 levels will increase inhibition of the bacteria cultures and slow acid production.
&#8226; Temperature (80-85&#8304;F)- The bacteria cultures perform better at warmer temperatures. Just like increasing IBU and O2 levels, decreasing fermentation temperatures will slow down acid production.
&#8226; Oak- This culture is designed to produce a drinkable beer in 6-8 weeks so it may be desirable to add oak during micro-aeration. Another method is to create an oak extract by boiling oak in 500-1000 ml water for 15 min. Once cooled, this can be dosed into sample volumes to determine final dosage rate for beer.
 

Oldsock

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Rebel Brewer apologized for some weird rye they send me with a free pack of De Bom (cool dudes). Might try it in a sour I'm planning with hibiscus, New Zealand wine and hops.
 

signpost

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I saw an info sheet about these at the lhbs earlier today. I didn't pick any up, but I'm wondering if I should have.
 
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