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Wyeast - 3724 - How Many Months Should I Wait?

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Hi everybody,

I brewed a Saison Dupont clone attempt 11 days ago, and dumped two smack packs of Wyeast 3724 at 82F/28C in after six minutes of whirlpool aeration using an electric drill & paddle.

I have a temperature-controlled conical fermenter with the heat cranked up to 92F/33C (the highest it seems it will go).

I experienced the typical 3724 burst of activity during days 1-3, but things have s-l-o-w-e-d d-o-w-n dramatically, as you can see from this Tilt Graph / Brew Status:

https://www.brewstat.us/share/4617/saison-dupont

Screen Shot 2018-08-27 at 14.35.45.png

(Green line is temperature, blue line is gravity.)

At this point I'm lucky to go down 0.001 in 36 hours. My Excel forecasting function is telling me I should expect to reach 1.005 sometime around September 24th (!). This seems excessive. I'd really like to free up the fermenter for something else for the next month.

Do I just need to let this ride for the long haul? Should I re-pitch yeast? I've followed the advice of countless 3724 threads that say high temps are the answer, but I don't seem to be making any progress here.

Your advice and thoughts are always very much appreciated!
 

Dog House Brew

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I’ve never had any stall or long ferments with this yeast. My Saison beers are finished in a week. I also never ferment that high. I pitch at 65 and let it free rise to low to mid 70’s. Pull a sample and check your gravity. My guess is it is finished.
 
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I’ve never had any stall or long ferments with this yeast. My Saison beers are finished in a week. I also never ferment that high. I pitch at 65 and let it free rise to low to mid 70’s. Pull a sample and check your gravity. My guess is it is finished.
I've done that already, and the Tilt is reporting the actual gravity, which is to say, we still have about .0020 until we're even close to my expected FG.

Everything I've read about this strain is that it needs hot temperatures, or lots of time, but I haven't heard anything about it needing both.
 

Dog House Brew

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After a little research, I guess I’ve just been lucky. WY says pitch at 90, and hold at 90, to avoid a stall. WY said it can take a month to go from where you are to FG. Either patience or pitch a finishing yeast.
 

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Hmmm, yeah I brewed a saison with 3724 on 7/28 with og of 1060. I’ve had a fermwrap set to 95 with 5* diff, so it goes to 95 stops goes down to 90 and heats back up. Took at reading on 8/21 and only at 1026. Tasted and smelled great, little sweet. But yeast is still chugging. Airlock burps about every 6 seconds even today.
 

dawn_kiebawls

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Maybe rack to secondary and take a lot of trub/yeast with it if you're in need of the fermentor, or rack and pitch a finisher. FWIW I have heard 3724 stalls a lot on the first 'generation' but if you were to wash the yeast and use again the chances of a stall go down significantly. Cheers!
 

jekeane

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The DuPont strain has never stalled on me using an open ferment I find that is more important than temperature. At this point I would rack to secondary and let it sit in hopes of getting your points.
 
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The DuPont strain has never stalled on me using an open ferment I find that is more important than temperature. At this point I would rack to secondary and let it sit in hopes of getting your points.
This is a really good point. I used my typical blow-off tube setup, with the end of the tube immersed all the way at the bottom of a one-gallon milk container. I have never had to deal with "pressure" being a factor in my fermentation.

Is it possible to "switch" to an open fermentation at this point, and will that cause it to kick into gear? Should I re-pitch a new pack and then leave it open?

FWIW, Racking to a secondary isn't really a great option as I don't have temperature control with anything other than my conical fermenter. If I move it to a bucket, I won't be able to keep it above 72F/22C.
 

Dog House Brew

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Maybe rack to secondary and take a lot of trub/yeast with it if you're in need of the fermentor, or rack and pitch a finisher. FWIW I have heard 3724 stalls a lot on the first 'generation' but if you were to wash the yeast and use again the chances of a stall go down significantly. Cheers!
Especially with higher pitching/fermenting temps
 

Dog House Brew

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This is a really good point. I used my typical blow-off tube setup, with the end of the tube immersed all the way at the bottom of a one-gallon milk container. I have never had to deal with "pressure" being a factor in my fermentation.

Is it possible to "switch" to an open fermentation at this point, and will that cause it to kick into gear? Should I re-pitch a new pack and then leave it open?

FWIW, Racking to a secondary isn't really a great option as I don't have temperature control with anything other than my conical fermenter. If I move it to a bucket, I won't be able to keep it above 72F/22C.
I’d still move it to a bucket and fill that badazz conical with something your ready for. You could go grain to glass before it is finished. Just say’n
 

ChuckS1

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I used this guide from Maltose Falcons when I brewed my first and so far only saison using the Dupont strain. Worked like a charm and never stalled.
 
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I used this guide from Maltose Falcons when I brewed my first and so far only saison using the Dupont strain. Worked like a charm and never stalled.
I saw that also -- and wish I had followed the advice from the beginning.

Is there a way to recover from the current "stuck" situation? Can I "switch" to an open fermentation at this point? (This seems like a bad idea to me.) I saw a bit about pitching some Safale-05 Champagne Yeast, but I'm not sure if that will effect the taste or not.

Perhaps I can leverage this long, slow fermentation into convincing my SO to let me buy another conical. :)
 

ChuckS1

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Maybe pitch some Wyeast 3711? That's just a wild ass guess on my part.
 
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I e used 3724 on numerous occasions but not starting at such a high temp. I usually start at 68/70°F and let it free rise as much as it wants. Usually in the upper 70’s to as high as 90°.
When I did have a stall I repitched with rehydrated T58. I added a few tablespoons of orange juice (no frozen or concentrate).
It really kicked off and finished in a day or so.
 

brewswithshoes

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If you don't plan to reuse, pitch some 3711 to finish it and the flavor won't get changed hardly at all.

I usually let it ride on its own to mid 80s. Pushed it to 90 once and it got to fusely for my liking.

It ferments a little quicker and personally I like the flavors better on repitches.
 
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It is time for an update! This beer is still fermenting several weeks later. A few days ago, I sprinkled Lalvin EC-1118 Champagne Yeast directly into the fermenter. The beer was still about 95F/35C when I did this, and since the yeast has done absolutely nothing in four days, I'm guessing that I fried the yeast with the high temps.

A question: I am fed up with waiting for this beer and want to use another yeast to finish it off. I've heard that a champagne yeast will leave it dry and not impart too many out-of-style flavors. How should I pitch the dry champagne yeast into the still-fermenting beer?

For those who are curious, you can see the progress on this beer in the graph below (green is temp in F, blue is gravity):

Screen Shot 2018-09-28 at 09.30.06.png


The drop in temperature on Sept. 25 is when I added the champagne yeast and cooled the wort down.
 

deadwolfbones

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Have you:

a) Swirled the fermenter?
b) Taken a hydrometer reading to confirm the Tilt readings?
 

RPh_Guy

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I find the use of wine yeast in beer rather puzzling.

Regardless, I would suggest rehydration of dry wine yeast. Sprinkle it into some ~95°F filtered tap water for 15-20 minutes.
Stir & make sure it's within 10°F of the beer when pitching. (If temperature adjustment is needed, add beer to the rehydrated yeast every 5-10 mins.)
 

deadwolfbones

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As previously suggested, I'd pitch a packet of 3711 (or Belle Saison) and see if that does anything.
 

couchsending

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Champagne yeast is pointless. It doesn’t Ferment complex sugars which is what’s left in this beer. It definitely won’t dry out a beer, not at all. It’s great for bottle conditioning beers that are high ABv as it’s very ABv tolerant but it can’t consume complex sugars from malt.

3711/Belle Saison is all you need. However I’d back the temps down to the mid 70s. It should consume everything.
 

RPh_Guy

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Champagne yeast is pointless. It doesn’t Ferment complex sugars which is what’s left in this beer. It definitely won’t dry out a beer, not at all.
These points are generally true (some strains may be exceptions). However pitching wine yeast does work for this purpose sometimes ... oddly enough.

Maybe the original yeast stalled from lack of nutrients. This is my guess (total speculation) for what happens with strains like this known for stalling.

Or perhaps sometimes there's a wild killer yeast that shuts down the original pitched yeast.

Wine yeast can sometimes continue fermentation in both of these cases. Personally I would try some Fermaid O in a sample (just large enough to monitor sg) before trying wine yeast.

I never get stalled fermentations and I haven't yet been able to convince anyone to test this hypothesis.
 

couchsending

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These points are generally true (some strains may be exceptions). However pitching wine yeast does work for this purpose sometimes ... oddly enough.

Maybe the original yeast stalled from lack of nutrients. This is my guess (total speculation) for what happens with strains like this known for stalling.

Or perhaps sometimes there's a wild killer yeast that shuts down the original pitched yeast.

Wine yeast can sometimes continue fermentation in both of these cases. Personally I would try some Fermaid O in a sample (just large enough to monitor sg) before trying wine yeast.

I never get stalled fermentations and I haven't yet been able to convince anyone to test this hypothesis.
K1v-1116 is the only wine yeast that can process maltotriose. With a gravity close to 1.020ish that’s probably all that’s left. Champagne yeast won’t get you much lower than maybe 1.020. Again they’re on my good for restarting stuck ferments that stall because there is too much alcohol for the primary yeast to deal with. Wine yeast can handle up to what 18% and they can have an insane temperature tolerance as well.

If you want a Saison which in my opinion needs to be south of 1.006 then you need to pitch 3711/bell Saison. It will chew through anything the left and there isn’t enough alcohol to inhibit it. Pitching an active ferment would help.
 

RPh_Guy

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Did some more investigating.

I guess Jamil Z suggested using "champagne yeast" to finish a stuck fermentation on his show. I'm not sure of the exact context.
Ever since then, people pop up on stuck fermentation threads suggesting it, and then someone beats them with a stick because wine yeast doesn't ferment beer sugars.

I also dug up these:
"it stuck around 1.020 and I used some dry champagne yeast and the baby went down to 1.002."
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/question-wyeast-3724-belgian-saison-behavior.64561/

"Champagne yeast has the potential to take it too low. Trust me. I've done it once and it was below 1.000. Almost too dry."
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/finishing-a-saison-extra-dry.186095/

So there are a couple cases I can find where someone said that it worked. Coincidence perhaps?

Then there are the people claiming 3724 is actually a "wine yeast". Phenolic, high ferm temperature.
Interesting.
 
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Another update for everybody!

The dry champagne yeast sat idle for about 5 days with no change (temperature, shaking, swirling or otherwise), then it began to chew through the beer. By the time I'd realized it was active, I had already bought some 3711, so I tossed that into the mix as well and it seems to have considerably accelerated the fermentation.

You can see more at my BrewStatus link: https://www.brewstat.us/share/4617/saison-dupont

Notes from the screenshot below:
A) When the primary ended and the long, slow, molasses-like fermentation took place for 30+ days
B) When I added dry champagne yeast
C) When I added 3711 (you can see that the champagne yeast was active in the day or two prior to the 3711 addition).

Screen Shot 2018-10-02 at 14.17.09.png


I look forward to bottling this and freeing up my fermenter so I can FINALLY brew something else. Worst. Fermentation. Ever.

Thank you everybody for the feedback and tips you gave. I do very much appreciate it!
 

specharka

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Just remember that the ergosterols emulsified with dry yeast are solubilized in wort or beer so it’s quite possible the nutrients on the dry yeast spurned yeast reproduction and fermentation, not necessarily that the champagne yeast strain actually participated in fermentation. But whatever happened, I’m glad it worked.
 
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