Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison - they were right!

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Jboggeye

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I've left mine in primary for 8 weeks without issues. getting it off the yeast won't help attenuation, and moving it someplace cooler now will not help either.

what was your starting gravity? Was it all-grain? (if so, what was your mash temp?)

3 weeks in and you're at 1.018, that sounds good to me. Just be patient.
 

RiffMagnum

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I've left mine in primary for 8 weeks without issues. getting it off the yeast won't help attenuation, and moving it someplace cooler now will not help either.

what was your starting gravity? Was it all-grain? (if so, what was your mash temp?)

3 weeks in and you're at 1.018, that sounds good to me. Just be patient.

Extract. O.G. was 1.052
 

Jboggeye

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Extract. O.G. was 1.052

I wouldn't worry at this point. swirl it up, leave it for 2 more weeks, and post back. looks to me like you are right on track.

this yeast tends to stall at around 1.03, you've past that point.
 

RiffMagnum

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I wouldn't worry at this point. swirl it up, leave it for 2 more weeks, and post back. looks to me like you are right on track.

this yeast tends to stall at around 1.03, you've past that point.


Cool. I actually swirled it at week two. That's when i got the gravity reading of 1.018, so by now it might actually be lower. I just wanted it to finish really dry since i was a little under the "projected" O.G. of 1.060 that my recipe called for. I think it was because my LHBS subbed out several key ingredients.
 

Jboggeye

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Cool. I actually swirled it at week two. That's when i got the gravity reading of 1.018, so by now it might actually be lower. I just wanted it to finish really dry since i was a little under the "projected" O.G. of 1.060 that my recipe called for. I think it was because my LHBS subbed out several key ingredients.

what was the recipe? I'm curious
 

RiffMagnum

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I've left mine in primary for 8 weeks without issues. getting it off the yeast won't help attenuation, and moving it someplace cooler now will not help either.

what was your starting gravity? Was it all-grain? (if so, what was your mash temp?)

3 weeks in and you're at 1.018, that sounds good to me. Just be patient.

I just remember reading someone say that leaving it on the cake for too long with those high temperatures can cause autolyse(sic) or possibly fusels. I'm not exactly sure what it was.
 

BrewDoc22

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I know it has a different flavor profile, but I just brewed a Saison a few weeks ago using Wyeast 3711 (French Saison). Started at 1.038 and ended at 1.002 10 days later (fermentation temp about 73˚F). I was apprehensive about bottling so soon, but the gravity had been stable for 3 days, the beer was clear and no bubbles were coming out of the airlock. Taste is awesome!

For those of you planning on making Saisons in the future who are worried about attenuation problems and aren't picky about French vs. Belgian strains, this is a great (and apparently quite aggressive) yeast.

*Disclaimer: this was a saison made with 1.5 lb. honey, so that undoubtedly sped up the fermentation a bit.
 

Jboggeye

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I just remember reading someone say that leaving it on the cake for too long with those high temperatures can cause autolyse(sic) or possibly fusels. I'm not exactly sure what it was.


you can leave this on the cake for 2+ months without autolysis, as long as you started out with healthy yeast and it's not at 85+ degrees for the whole time.
Autolysis is mostly a myth if you start with healthy yeast- ie make a starter

Fusels is when you ferment too hot- difficult to do with this yeast.
 

Jboggeye

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I know it has a different flavor profile, but I just brewed a Saison a few weeks ago using Wyeast 3711 (French Saison). Started at 1.038 and ended at 1.002 10 days later (fermentation temp about 73˚F). I was apprehensive about bottling so soon, but the gravity had been stable for 3 days, the beer was clear and no bubbles were coming out of the airlock. Taste is awesome!

For those of you planning on making Saisons in the future who are worried about attenuation problems and aren't picky about French vs. Belgian strains, this is a great (and apparently quite aggressive) yeast.

*Disclaimer: this was a saison made with 1.5 lb. honey, so that undoubtedly sped up the fermentation a bit.

This is funny, there is a similar thread to this one about the 3711 yeast, where I posted that alot of us like to start with 3724 for 3 to 4 days, and then pitch a starter of 3711.
Doing this can get you a nice complex saison.

when I want a "smooth" saison, I got to the French yeast
 

rejart

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I'm getting pretty excited about this one. I just took a gravity reading and it's down to 1.024 after only a week, so hopefully I've avoided the 1.030 sticking point. It's still bubbling steadily at 4 burps/min. I've been able to keep the temp between 85 and 90 the whole time, so I think that really helps.

BTW, the sample tasted amazing, totally worth the effort.
 

JoeLindley

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I know it has a different flavor profile, but I just brewed a Saison a few weeks ago using Wyeast 3711 (French Saison). Started at 1.038 and ended at 1.002 10 days later (fermentation temp about 73˚F). I was apprehensive about bottling so soon, but the gravity had been stable for 3 days, the beer was clear and no bubbles were coming out of the airlock. Taste is awesome! For those of you planning on making Saisons in the future who are worried about attenuation problems and aren't picky about French vs. Belgian strains, this is a great (and apparently quite aggressive) yeast.

Personally I think going through the trouble with 3724 is worth it, even if it takes 3 weeks longer. IMHO, 3711 is good and it's a lot easier to get a very dry saison with it, but 3724 is more flavorful, especially for the orange and juicy fruit bubblegum.
 

pohldogg

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Agree with Joe, the dupont strain has the best flavor and is worth the work. To me blaugies and thiriez taste like ordinary Belgians instead is saisons. Now if we they'd just sell the glazen toren strain I'd be over the moon. But it'd probably turn out to be t58.
 

Rivenin

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JoeLindley said:
Personally I think going through the trouble with 3724 is worth it, even if it takes 3 weeks longer. IMHO, 3711 is good and it's a lot easier to get a very dry saison with it, but 3724 is more flavorful, especially for the orange and juicy fruit bubblegum.

Agreed. If youre in a rush è711 but if you have patience 3724
 

wormraper

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am tempted to try putting the 3724/565 saison that I'm just starting in a tub of water out in my shed since it can get so dang hot out there. According to my LHBS a 565/3724 can handle wild temp swings pretty easily so it should be ok. Any thoughts on that one? (temps can get as low as 81 at night and as high as 107 during the day ambient)
 

Brew-boy

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I had not trouble with 3724, Pitched at 68f left it for two days and ramped it up slowly to 90f and it went from 1.057 to 1.005 in 2 weeks.
 

SnidelyWhiplash

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it sounds like a lot of the problems with this might be due to poor oxygenation and low pitch rate

If you only cool wort to 80F the max oxygen you get with air is going to be less than if you cool it to 65 before pitching by a fair bit, the yeast might not reproduce enough to still be healthy when you get to 1.03 and struggle fermenting the rest

I'll update later but planning to try this. any comments?

1L stirred starter per 5gal, with yeast nutrient
cool to about 80F, aerate with a drill and paint stirrer,
pitch and keep temperature at 80F. (2 fermenting buckets sitting in a big tub that I'll add hot water to)
Test it at 3 weeks and increase temperature if its not done. at 4 or 5 weeks add a high ABV yeast if still not done.
 

barrooze

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I cooled my 5.5 gallons to 62F, aerated as I normally do, which is excessive shaking, and pitched a 1.75L starter (from stirplate) with yeast nutrient. I had plenty of yeasties and oxygen. This strain is just notorious for stalling/slowing at some point.
 

permo

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my first brew with this yeast had no issues. Pitched 4 liter starter into 10 gallons of 1.057 wort that was %10 sugar in the fermantables. Two weeks later I was at 1.005 , after five weeks 1.003 and in the kegs. What an amazing flavor this yeast has! For the record, I mashed at 149 degrees for 6 hours, that seemed to help the fermentability.

No I have a 1.075 black rye india style saison on that yeast cake, its taking off slower then I thought it would but the fermenter is only at 78 degrees. I gotta crank the temp up!
 

llama_boy

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Starting my 3724 saga.

<Sep-30-12> I brewed a small saison (1.048) and pitched the cake of a big 3L starter into 5 gallons. Wort was at 75F and fully oxygenated with O2. Let it sit for a day at 75F until I had active airlock activity, about 1/sec. Just set the ramp-up from 75F-90F over the next 8 days. I'll be taking daily reading.. We shall see..

Forgot to mention, I mashed a little too high at 152F for 90mins and the grain bill is 100% barley. This will likely reduce my terminal gravity but I hope to still see 1.007.

<Update Oct-17-12> Even with the healthy starter, pure O2, and precise temperature control starting at 75* and slowly ramping to 84* (decided to stop there) I have a stuck fermentation at 1.022. I roused the yeast and after a few hour there is no new airlock activity. The sample tastes very good with a great saison profile so I am considering finishing with either 1056 or a dry wine yeast. I'll give it a few days before pitching another yeast.
 

permo

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Starting my 3724 saga.

<Sep-30-12> I brewed a small saison (1.048) and pitched the cake of a big 3L starter into 5 gallons. Wort was at 75F and fully oxygenated with O2. Let it sit for a day at 75F until I had active airlock activity, about 1/sec. Just set the ramp-up from 75F-90F over the next 8 days. I'll be taking daily reading.. We shall see..

Forgot to mention, I mashed a little too high at 152F for 90mins and the grain bill is 100% barley. This will likely reduce my terminal gravity but I hope to still see 1.007.

<Update Oct-17-12> Even with the healthy starter, pure O2, and precise temperature control starting at 75* and slowly ramping to 84* (decided to stop there) I have a stuck fermentation at 1.022. I roused the yeast and after a few hour there is no new airlock activity. The sample tastes very good with a great saison profile so I am considering finishing with either 1056 or a dry wine yeast. I'll give it a few days before pitching another yeast.


How did this end up?
 

makisupa

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Hi all. I've been experimenting with 3724 for a couple years and I think I can offer some very helpful advice:

Chill your saison to 85 degrees
Ferment at 92 degrees for three weeks
Age at 55 degrees for two weeks
Carbonate
DONE!

I get great, consistent results from 3724 with this technique. After you pitch at 85, put your carboy in a fermentation chamber and set it to 92 from the get go. It'll ramp up to that temp and then let it sit there. Fermentation should take off in a couple hours and you'll get to 1.000 or close in three weeks. Rack to secondary and go two weeks at 55. I then chill to 38, force carb and serve.
 

slcdawg

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Great thread! I'm brewing my first saison tonight with 3724 and read through the entire thread. I'm going to try to control temperature with a water bath and aquarium heater. I plan to pitch at 70-75F and then ramp up the temp a few degrees each day until above 85F. Not sure if I can go higher - first time fermenting at this high of temp.

My question is I'm fermenting in a bucket. I've read not to ferment in a bucket for more than 4 weeks (and this is my general practice) due to all the head space. Can I transfer to secondary at 4 weeks if its not finished yet or do I need to wait until its done? Will it finish in the secondary or do I need the yeast cake? I was thinking I could try to swirl the bottom and transfer as much yeast as possible into the secondary.
 

meadowstream

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slcdawg said:
My question is I'm fermenting in a bucket. I've read not to ferment in a bucket for more than 4 weeks (and this is my general practice) due to all the head space. Can I transfer to secondary at 4 weeks if its not finished yet or do I need to wait until its done? Will it finish in the secondary or do I need the yeast cake? I was thinking I could try to swirl the bottom and transfer as much yeast as possible into the secondary.

What is the problem with head space in a bucket? What reasons are given for this being problematic?
 

SnidelyWhiplash

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does anyone understand how to control the flavor you get from the yeast? I made a starter on a stir plate at 78 and after chilling and decanting, the starter liquid had a great fruity flavor. The actual beer was pitched at 78, let it rise to 80 for 2 weeks and brought the temp up to about 90 to finish it. I got a lot more of the spicy character out of the yeast than fruity, which I think would have been better. I left it in primary for 5 weeks and it was finished.

lots of headspace in a bucket for secondary or aging would allow more oxygenation. after the initial fermentation the beer isn't pumping out CO2 and you want to minimize exposure to oxygen.
 

beauvafr

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Have you guys successfully sugar-carbonated you beer with 3724 without adding yeast at bottling?
 

ShartAttack

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So I ordered the Northern Brewer Saison extract kit and Wyeast 3724 without doing any homework. Hey, it's my 6th brew and it's like every other yeast, right?

Once I read about all the issues, I put the thermostat in my apartment up to ~76F. It's a small apartment so I didn't really want to crank up the heat quite yet so I was going to see how far I could get without having to utilize some sort of heater. Here are my gravity readings so far:

5/1/2013 PM, OG @1.055
5/3/2013 PM, @1.042
5/4/2013 AM, @1.036
5/5/2013 AM, @1.032
5/6/2013 AM, @1.029

My question for the more experienced here, am I past the hump? I've been getting plenty of airlock activity since about 2 hours after I pitched my smack pack. There was still a thin layer of krausen on top of the beer this morning. I'm fine with having to wait a while for it to dry out, but I just don't want to have to turn our spare bedroom into a sauna to get there :)
 

beergolf

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So I ordered the Northern Brewer Saison extract kit and Wyeast 3724 without doing any homework. Hey, it's my 6th brew and it's like every other yeast, right?

Once I read about all the issues, I put the thermostat in my apartment up to ~76F. It's a small apartment so I didn't really want to crank up the heat quite yet so I was going to see how far I could get without having to utilize some sort of heater. Here are my gravity readings so far:

5/1/2013 PM, OG @1.055
5/3/2013 PM, @1.042
5/4/2013 AM, @1.036
5/5/2013 AM, @1.032
5/6/2013 AM, @1.029

My question for the more experienced here, am I past the hump? I've been getting plenty of airlock activity since about 2 hours after I pitched my smack pack. There was still a thin layer of krausen on top of the beer this morning. I'm fine with having to wait a while for it to dry out, but I just don't want to have to turn our spare bedroom into a sauna to get there :)

Wow. 5 days and you have checked the gravity 4 times. Just let it be for a while and let the yeast do its job.

3724 does like it hot to finish. I use a cooler filled with water and an aquarium heater to get the temps up and keep them up.
 

ShartAttack

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Wow. 5 days and you have checked the gravity 4 times. Just let it be for a while and let the yeast do its job.

3724 does like it hot to finish. I use a cooler filled with water and an aquarium heater to get the temps up and keep them up.

Yeah, I've been a little obsessive with the gravity readings because threads like this one made me paranoid. I promise not to check it again for a week :cross: :mug:
 

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I was at 1.029 about a month ago. I cranked up the heat belt to hit 90, and also used a racking cane and co2 tank to bubble co2 in the carboy to resuspend the yeast. Just checked gravity today, down to 1.013, OG on this guy was 1.067. 3724 is fickle, but it can chew its way down if you give it heat and time. Hoping to get into single digits in a week or two.
 

ShartAttack

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Well, over two weeks and it's still going! I've been checking the gravity periodically and I've generally been getting some airlock activity as well. The temperature inside my apartment has generally been in the mid 70s, but one day when it got into the 90s I put it out on the balcony for a few hours and that seemed to wake it up a bit.

On day 1 the OG was 1.055. Today is day 16 and the SG is 1.010. I figure it still needs a few more days, all in all I think fermentation will have taken about 3 weeks to complete while my other beers have taken about a week. So I guess that makes it trickier to a degree, but given I didn't have any problems with it stalling (knock on wood) I would say it's been good.
 

milsman2

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Son of a *****. Just took a hydrometer reading on my dark saison with a 1.072 SG. It is a week out @74F and I'm only down to 1.034. I'm going to add 3/4 lb. of dextrose into the primary and let it sit in my South Texas garage and see how this yeast likes it. This has been my only beer in a year of brewing to poop out on me.
 

ne0t0ky0

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I highly suggest using something to inject co2 to stir up the yeast, and hit it with the heat. I just finished an 8 week primary run with 3724... and it was definitely worth the wait, but It could have been less time if I had been rousing the yeast sooner. 90F and co2 rousing brought me down from 1.038 to 1.004 in about 4 weeks.
 

triangulum33

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I have a small Saison that went from 1.043 to 1.006 in 14 days with 3724. I pitched at around 78* and ramped it up slowly a degree every 2 days. Currently at 85* headed to 90*.
 

beauvafr

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Did a 1.5 L 2-steps starter.

From 1.062 to 1.007 in 3.5 weeks. Slowly ramped from 65 to 82-83. Put the fermentor in a tub with an aquarium heater. Maintained over 80 for the last 14 days.

No sulfur smell. Taste really good! But I am gonna wait a couple of days and take another sample.
 

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Ive had 10gal fermenting for a 1.5 weeks now. I pitched at 70 and ramped up to "88" Great Scott!:drunk: with an aquarium heater. Each fermenter seems to be chugging along. hopefully with the combination of injected oxygen, a starter, and nice warm temps 3724 will attenuate without many hiccups. I plan on taking a gravity reading on monday or tuesday, to see what kind of progress has been made.
 

PricePeeler

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevmoron
It looks like I'm in the same boat as others on this, with 3724...

I mashed 9 lbs of Castle Pilsner malt at 145 for 90 min (this one is a SMaSH), then 158 for 30. Added 1 pound of sucrose, and came out with an OG of 1.060.

Pitched a 1-liter starter at 85F, allowing the temperature to rise to 90. Fermentation took off like nothing I have ever seen.

I had a two-inch krausen within TWO HOURS of pitching.
4 hours, maximum Krausen at around 4 inches high.
9 hours, Krausen already going down a bit.
Went to bed, and 16 hours after pitching I see that the Krausen is almost totally gone and bubbles are coming once every 15 seconds (for the record, I have a thermowell and digital controller keeping everything at a rock solid, steady 90 F, so yes this is actually a decent indicator of CO2 evolution).
20 hours, and Krausen is totally gone. SG is at 1.040 (grrrr).

Looks like I'm in this for the long haul. I'm going to let the temp drop one degree each day to about 80 because I'm just a little freaked out about the prospect of up to six weeks on a yeast cake at 90 F.

Just an FYI to follow up on the above - as I said the OG was 1.060 and it slowed sharply at 1.040. I let the thing go for 6 weeks and it finished at 1.002 (not a typo).

I realize I am quoting a post from page 7 of 20 here, but this is a great update.
-Finished at 1.002 in 6 weeks
 

ShartAttack

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I really wish I understood what makes this yeast tick... I was really paranoid from reading all of the stories here that mine would get stuck, but it plugged along, albeit slowly. Spent most of its time in the mid 70s, and while it took about 3 weeks to finish up, it made gradual progress through that time. I guess most of my other beers are done fermenting in about a week but I still thought it went pretty well even though I didn't have the higher temperature.
 
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