Wyeast 3711 French Saison

[bh10]

I'm gearing up to brew this soon and seem to get mixed signals from reviews: sugar or no sugar. If so, at what stage is it best to add, and in what quantity for a 5-gallon batch?

Personally I wouldnt, maybe a 1/2 lbs at the most. This yeast attenuates so well itll make the beer much stronger abv than what you think. My saison was at 1.054 og, which I thought might be a 6% tops, but it went to 1.002fg right at 7%, and that was with 1lbs of candi sugar.

 

[passedpawn]

Everytime I use sugar for this yeast, my FG is 1.000. You really don't need it, IMO.

I wouldn't. Mine went a bit hot with this yeast and sugar. Next time, no sugar.

 

[EvilGnome6]

I concur. No sugar needed with 3711.

 

[bigbeergeek]

The excellent book Farmhouse Ales notes that sugar doesn't make it's way into traditional/non-American commercial Saison recipes. I wonder why so many homebrewers are adding it to their beer? Possibly to counteract the lackluster attenuation properties of the Dupont strain? At any rate, sugar is a non-traditional ingredient and can easily be skipped with the French Saison strain.

 

[discgolfin]

Ok making first saison..pilsner wheat and touch of Munich. After reading this thread on 3711, it seems sugar are not needed..was planning on mash 145-147. OG around 1.06..I also did a 2L starter with stir plate for 5 gallon batch. Planned to step up again per pitch rate calculator..Ill be a bit short on yeast but it sounds like I should be fine with what I have...thoughts..no sugar..short on yeast ok?

Thanks

Jay

 

[Doog_Si_Reeb]

You'll be fine without sugar and with pitching a little less yeast than recommended. I didn't use sugar on the one I have in primary now and I underpitched a little bit. I mashed at 149 and my OG was 1.048. The last reading I took, it was down to 1.002.

 

[JLW]

Ok, I am learning about Saison's and I am formulating my first Saison recipe. I was hoping I could get a little advice on my recipe. I see that the table sugar isn't needed or part of a traditional farmhouse saison. I'm using beersmith but I can't seem to get my projected FG below 1.012. Thanks in advance for any help

jw

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Belgian Saison Wyeast 3711
Yeast Starter: 2.9 liters
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.063
Final Gravity: 1.012
IBU: 33.4
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 5 RM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 28 days?
Additional Fermentation: none
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): none

Malts and Fermentables
7bs. 4 oz Belgian Pils 2 Row
2lbs. Munich Malt
8 oz. Vienna Malt
1lb. Table Sugar

Hops
1.75 oz. Fuggles Hops 4.5%AA 60 minutes
1 oz. StyrianHops 5.4% AA 20 minutes
0.5 oz. EKG Hops 5.0% AA 0 minutes
2 oz. Fuggles Hops 4.5%AA Dry Hop - 7 days

Mash at 147 for 90 min. Batch sparge at 170 for 10 min. PLanning on a 1L starter. Based on Mr. Malty calculations.

 

[EvilGnome6]

I'm using beersmith but I can't seem to get my projected FG below 1.012.

Ignore BeerSmith's projected FG. It's meaningless, especially with 3711.

 

[smokinghole]

Ok, I am learning about Saison's and I am formulating my first Saison recipe. I was hoping I could get a little advice on my recipe. I see that the table sugar isn't needed or part of a traditional farmhouse saison. I'm using beersmith but I can't seem to get my projected FG below 1.012. Thanks in advance for any help

jw

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Belgian Saison Wyeast 3711
Yeast Starter: 2.9 liters
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.063
Final Gravity: 1.012
IBU: 33.4
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 5 RM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 28 days?
Additional Fermentation: none
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): none

Malts and Fermentables
7bs. 4 oz Belgian Pils 2 Row
2lbs. Munich Malt
8 oz. Vienna Malt
1lb. Table Sugar

Hops
1.75 oz. Fuggles Hops 4.5%AA 60 minutes
1 oz. StyrianHops 5.4% AA 20 minutes
0.5 oz. EKG Hops 5.0% AA 0 minutes
2 oz. Fuggles Hops 4.5%AA Dry Hop - 7 days

Mash at 147 for 90 min. Batch sparge at 170 for 10 min. PLanning on a 1L starter. Based on Mr. Malty calculations.

You're recipe looks good otherwise. Try and control temp to around 75F.

When it comes to adjusting the expected FG you need to double click on the yeast being used in your recipe. Then you can adjust the average attentuation up to 95% or so to get near what you realistically will with this yeast.

 

[JLW]

You're recipe looks good otherwise. Try and control temp to around 75F.

When it comes to adjusting the expected FG you need to double click on the yeast being used in your recipe. Then you can adjust the average attentuation up to 95% or so to get near what you realistically will with this yeast.

Perfect. I made the adjustment and it dropped the est FG to 1.003. Also I removed the table sugar to keep it more traditional. Here is my revised recipe:

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Belgian Saison Wyeast 3711
Yeast Starter: 2.9 liters
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.063
Final Gravity: 1.012
IBU: 33.4
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 5 RM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 28 days?
Additional Fermentation: none
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): none

Malts and Fermentables
8lbs Belgian Pils 2 Row
2lbs. Munich Malt
8 oz. Vienna Malt

Hops
1.75 oz. Fuggles Hops 4.5%AA 60 minutes
1 oz. StyrianHops 5.4% AA 20 minutes
0.5 oz. EKG Hops 5.0% AA 0 minutes
2 oz. Fuggles Hops 4.5%AA Dry Hop - 7 days

Mash at 147 for 90 min. Batch sparge at 170 for 10 min. PLanning on a 1L starter. Based on Mr. Malty calculations.


How long to ferment and age? I was thinking no secondary and a fermentation time of around 14-20 days

 

[ChshreCat]

How long to ferment and age? I was thinking no secondary and a fermentation time of around 14-20 days

I left my last batch in primary for 4 months.

Might've been overkill... but it tastes wonderful.

 

[smokinghole]

Just make sure your conversion is complete using an iodine test if you can. I'm sure at 90 min it will be but it never hurts to check. Half the time I forget to check. The frementation should take about 10-12 days probably. I left mine in the primary fermentor for 5 days past active fermentation and then transferred it into a secondary to make room for another beer in my 10gal primary. Currently I'm waiting on more belgian cork cages and its sitting in my garage dropping yeast (probably all done) in the 30-40F temps. I am looking at bottling this up this coming weekend.

Your plan all in all makes perfect sense. With an exception to some hops and some grain quantities we have a very similar recipe.

 

[discgolfin]

first time using this yeast, I mashed 145 for 90. to skip the sugar adddition.

Chugging away after 8 hrs. Im going to hold at 68 for the first 2 days than slowly raise it to 80 be the end of the week.

 

[smokinghole]

Just wanted to let you know that Wyeast lists the temp up to 75F. This is not the dupont strain in any way. I'm sure you can run high with it but you don't need to at all. The reason for running the dupont strain so high is because otherwise it would take fermentation forever to complete. .

 

[joety]

Just wanted to let you know that Wyeast lists the temp up to 75F. This is not the dupont strain in any way. I'm sure you can run high with it but you don't need to at all. The reason for running the dupont strain so high is because otherwise it would take fermentation forever to complete. .

So you can keep it mid to high sixties and fully attenuate?

 

[Jboggeye]

this yeast will always fully attenuate... I've never had it go above 1.002... I would bump it to 70's toward the end of of fermentation, getting the full flavor of the yeast. the thing about this yeast is is tastes great at such low attenuation, so don't be afraid to let it go dry. I always mash high, and I believe that brings out the best in the yeast. Keep it in the bottle for 6 months though. It gets really good...

 

[bigbeergeek]

Interesting. This brewer fermented the 3711 with an ambient temperature of 61 and says the yeast lost all of its character, describing the resulting beer as "British" tasting...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/wyeast-3711-my-saison-became-british-236848/

 

[Jboggeye]

61 is really low, I believe. even for a non-belgian yeast...I would err on the higher side for this yeast, I've never had fusels or anything...

I'm actually testing temps for this yeast. I just made 2 extract saison batches, one that I am leaving at ambient 72 degree temp to see what comes out of just letting it go, (pitched at 63), and another where I control temps for the first 4 days, pitching at 65 and controlling it's growth to 73 over the week. Trying to get a better handle on this yeast, and where the flavors shine through the most.

 

[JLW]

I feel pretty good about brwing my Saison. Right now I am problem solviong through the higher fermentation temps and how I will get that done. I am ither going to:

1. Wrap in towels and place in a warm room,
2. Buy a heating pad to set the fermenter on or,
3. Buy one of those fancy ferm wraps.

I think I will brew this one toward the end of April. I had a beer this winter wrapped in a towel that I accidentally got up to the low 80's but there seems to be a lot less control with this method.

 

[Jboggeye]

JLW, what is your ambient temp?

 

[KYB]

I started mine at 65 and brought it up to 75 slowly over a 5-7 days. Finished at 1.004 and tastes great. I did a 10gal batch (unspiced) and split between Belgian and French Strains, the Belgian I started at 75 and brought up to 85, finished at 1.008 and is good, but I liked the French better.

 

[bigbeergeek]

61 is really low, I believe. even for a non-belgian yeast...I would err on the higher side for this yeast, I've never had fusels or anything...

I'm actually testing temps for this yeast. I just made 2 extract saison batches, one that I am leaving at ambient 72 degree temp to see what comes out of just letting it go, (pitched at 63), and another where I control temps for the first 4 days, pitching at 65 and controlling it's growth to 73 over the week. Trying to get a better handle on this yeast, and where the flavors shine through the most.

61 was his ambient temp. He had no way to measure the fermenting beer's temp. It's safe to assume it was 5+ degrees warmer than the ambient for the first 4 or 5 days of fermentation, which would have put it within range of the yeast (65-77).

 

[bigbeergeek]

Just wanted to let you know that Wyeast lists the temp up to 75F. This is not the dupont strain in any way. I'm sure you can run high with it but you don't need to at all. The reason for running the dupont strain so high is because otherwise it would take fermentation forever to complete. .

Not to nitpick, but wyeast lists this one from 65 to 77.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=199

 

[Jboggeye]

That's a big range... I'm trying to figure out what temps give it the best "saison" character.. What do you guys think?

Oh, and JLW, I would just get a brew belt, they are cheap and would work well for this purpose.

 

[JLW]

That's a big range... I'm trying to figure out what temps give it the best "saison" character.. What do you guys think?

Oh, and JLW, I would just get a brew belt, they are cheap and would work well for this purpose.

I think I will just get the brew belt. My ambient temp in that part of the house during the day is normally around 70-75 maybe hotter in that room. The room has two sunlights and gets pretty warm inthe summer.

 

[smokinghole]

http://www.marineland.com/sites/Marineland/products/productdetail.aspx?id=2054&cid=1214&mid=3226

You can get one of those in 100w rating and a 15gal party bucket. That gives you great control over the temp. Going that route takes up more space but I've got good results using for heating. In the winter it would even conceivably give me the ability to lager in the garage with the use of a temp controller.

 

[joety]

That's a big range... I'm trying to figure out what temps give it the best "saison" character.. What do you guys think?

Oh, and JLW, I would just get a brew belt, they are cheap and would work well for this purpose.

I just got my 14 gallon conical last week. Will a brew belt work on that?

 

[Jboggeye]

haha, I've never seen one, but I doubt it! I just use buckets!

 

[methodbeer]

We almost exclusively use 3711, even for Belgians. We've found that starting at 66 and boosting the temp to 70 after 2 days brings out the most saison aromas and flavors. With these strains, most of the alcohol will be produced in the first day or two--giving clean background for the bump up to produce the necessary esters to fit the style. You could even chill to 66 and just let go (up to 80 even)--that's what some of the monks and the guy at Jolly Pumpkin do.

3711 is one of the hardest working strains I've seen. We almost always get every beer to finish with 1.005 gravity! In fact, we tried a Belgian, had a stuck fermentation, and pitched the French on top. It fermented all the way through.

Our Rye Saison, using 3711, took 3rd in a regional competition last year with a score of 42 (got beat out by a 44 and 45). It was fantastic!

 

[MNDan]

So are 3711 beers super dry then? I've been drinking Dupont saison's lately and they are really dry. Does the 3711 yeast produce a similar flavor profile?