Would chilling with ice in the brew be crazy?

[jaginger]

I just read a post that got me thinking. What would be the problem with using one (or more) a gallon-sized ice blocks dropped into the wort after the boil? I used a 6 gallon final volume for the calcs below.

My back of the envelope math shows that one gallon of ice added to 5 gallons of 212-degree wort would drop it to 158 degrees in whatever time it took to melt the ice (not very long.)

2 gallons of ice would drop 4 gallons of boiling wort to 104 degrees.

Obviously neither of those is pitching temp (especially the 1-gallon version), but the point is you've gotten off the very high temps quickly.

The downside is you don't have a quite full-volume boil. But in the 1-gallon case I don't see that being too big a deal (final boil volume 5 gallons vs 6, so you probably started with close to 6.)

Omitting responses of "just get a chiller", would this technique cause any problems I'm not seeing? Boiling the water before freezing it should take care of any contamination issues.

Thanks for responding!

 

[PhilOssiferzStone]

I actually tried this once, a few months back when the weather was crappy and I couldn't make brew outside. I did it on the stovetop and dumped a solid block of ice from 7-11 in the wort to chill it, along with about a gallon of ice water the ice'd been sitting in. I reasoned this would replace whatever I'd lost in the boil, plus cool it down to the point where I could pitch my yeast that evening.

It didn't work. It merely reduced the wort from boiling hot to steaming hot, and when I got it into the bucket the adhesive thermometer didn't even register a temp. The sides of the bucket were hot to the touch. I sanitized the lid and sealed it up and stuck it in the garage, then pitched my yeast the following day and hoped for the best.

The beer came out fine, but there was that additional teeth-grinding window of opportunity for infections to set in, and I didn't enjoy the extra worry. I know this isn't what you asked for -- maybe you live in an apartment and don't have a hose -- but there really is no substitute for a wort chiller. It'll take more ice than you think it will, and if you're buying the big blocks down at the convenience store that's actually a kind of an extra expense you don't need. Maybe you can do what I wound up doing, if better cannot be... cool it somewhat, get it in the bucket, and pitch your yeast tomorrow.

 

[arturo7]

cubes work better than blocks

 

[a10t2]

I tried it recently and it works well. The specific heat of wort seems to be ~3.5 J/g-°C, though, so 2 gal of ice and 4 gal of wort will drop to around 33°C/91°F. 2.5 gal of ice and 3.5 gal of wort would get you to ale pitching temps (18°C/63°F). I froze the ice in three zipper bags, then just cut them open and dropped the ice in the fermenter. Even without breaking up the blocks, it got to lager pitching temperature in 9 minutes.

http://seanterrill.com/2011/01/16/of-ice-and-10p/

 

[jaginger]

I tried it recently and it works well. The specific heat of wort seems to be ~3.5 J/g-°C, though, so 2 gal of ice and 4 gal of wort will drop to around 33°C/91°F. 2.5 gal of ice and 3.5 gal of wort would get you to ale pitching temps (18°C/63°F). I froze the ice in three zipper bags, then just cut them open and dropped the ice in the fermenter. Even without breaking up the blocks, it got to lager pitching temperature in 9 minutes.

http://seanterrill.com/2011/01/16/of-ice-and-10p/

Wow, thanks. Never woulda guessed the lower specific heat, so I'm glad you posted your experience.

EDIT: Cool website by the way. Nice to run into a polymath now and then

 

[PhilOssiferzStone]

froze the ice in three zipper bags[/url]

Now why the h*ll didn't I think of that...?

Thanks for the tip, man. If it ever so happens again I get stuck making brew indoors, I'll remember that.

 

[hamrd]

I have a galvanized tub that i make a ice bath in and just set the kettle in. works great pitching temp in about 30 min. just enough time to clean a few things and sip on a homebrew

 

[jaginger]

I tried it recently and it works well. The specific heat of wort seems to be ~3.5 J/g-°C, though, so 2 gal of ice and 4 gal of wort will drop to around 33°C/91°F. 2.5 gal of ice and 3.5 gal of wort would get you to ale pitching temps (18°C/63°F). I froze the ice in three zipper bags, then just cut them open and dropped the ice in the fermenter. Even without breaking up the blocks, it got to lager pitching temperature in 9 minutes.

http://seanterrill.com/2011/01/16/of-ice-and-10p/

An update on the procedure here. I just brewed today and chilled 4 gallons of wort with 2 gals of ice and hit 90 deg in a couple mins, exactly as specified above.

I might try the 2.5/3.5 next time. Any disadvantages to the less than full boil other than lower hop util?

 

[a10t2]

I might try the 2.5/3.5 next time. Any disadvantages to the less than full boil other than lower hop util?

I actually just posted some thoughts on that: http://seanterrill.com/2011/03/06/partial-boil-followup/

While I don't want to generalize too much based on a single batch, I don't think there are really any downsides to a partial boil, at least for a normal-gravity beer.

 

[BoundForBeer]

I thought alot of people have said that ice contains alot of contaminants? Where is is made not are not the "cleanest" conditions. I know for average use in your soda or a whiskey on the rocks its fine but putting it in the wort could cause problems? What about the water profile of the cubes.. your not sure if its goin be hard or soft. Again I don't "know" these things have just read about it from OP here.

 

[jaginger]

Good questions BFB. What i did on my last batch was to boil 2 gallons of water, then put them straight into a sealed, sanitized fermenter and freeze the whole block solid. Keep it closed until brew day, and then siphon the just-boiled wort straight into that fermenter with the big block of ice. I think that takes care of sanitation as much as reasonably possible.

As far as the profile, it will be the same as my strike and sparge water, since they are from the same source (my tap.) I'm not as familiar with water profiling, so there may be other issues here though.

 

[jaginger]

I actually just posted some thoughts on that: http://seanterrill.com/2011/03/06/partial-boil-followup/

While I don't want to generalize too much based on a single batch, I don't think there are really any downsides to a partial boil, at least for a normal-gravity beer.

Great, thanks a lot sean. Please post the results of your 8-9 gallon IPA when you're done with it.

BTW, that just gave me an exciting idea. My setup is capable of full volume boils (6 gallons) on the stove. If I do ice-chill, i could possibly brew 10 gallon batches using this method.

 

[DrHops]

I've done something very similar a few times when I don't feel like breaking out the big rig outside. I freeze two gallons of water in my fermentation bucket, then do a partial boil brew on the stove with 3 gallons of water to start with. When it's done I just pour the boiling wort into the bucket being careful to pour it directly into the center. I then add water to make it 5 1/2 gallons and add the yeast. I read about doing this last year on the Sam Adams website, Jim Koch recommended it to new homebrewers. I've done it 3 or 4 times and every time the beer came out great!

 

[itsme6582]

My dad always told me not to drink the ice from the store because it's not clean. That might have been true years ago. With the way everything is monitored anymore, I find it hard to believe that a company could sell ice without it being food safe. I think it's probably as safe as tap water. So yes there are risks but they are minimal and a lot of people are probably doing it with no problems.

 

[a10t2]

I think it's probably as safe as tap water. So yes there are risks but they are minimal and a lot of people are probably doing it with no problems.

Maybe so, and maybe I'm just paranoid, but I wouldn't put water in my beer without pasteurizing it either.

BTW, that just gave me an exciting idea. My setup is capable of full volume boils (6 gallons) on the stove. If I do ice-chill, i could possibly brew 10 gallon batches using this method.

That was most of my motivation for trying it in the first place. My plan is to have all my kegs full before spring comes and things get hectic. Being able to do 10 gal batches would go a long way. I'll let you know once I've tried it.